16:00:04 <adamw> #startmeeting Fedora QA meeting
16:00:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan  6 16:00:04 2014 UTC.  The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:07 <adamw> #meetingname fedora-qa
16:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
16:00:11 <adamw> #topic Roll call
16:00:19 <adamw> morning folks! who's here for the first QA meeting of 2014?
16:00:34 * danofsatx is present and mostly accounted for
16:00:39 * satellit listening
16:00:53 * mkrizek is here
16:01:00 * cmurf materializes
16:01:15 <danofsatx> is it that time already? wow...I thought I had time for another donut.
16:01:16 * kparal 
16:01:17 * tflink is present
16:01:21 <adamw> oh, someone got himself one of them thar fancy materializers for christmas
16:01:29 * pschindl is here
16:01:36 * pwhalen is here
16:01:40 * brunowolff is here
16:02:33 * roshi is here
16:02:33 <adamw> how'd everyone's holidays go?
16:02:53 <danofsatx> do you really wanna know?
16:02:57 <kparal> splendid. I didn't even want to return to work :)
16:03:16 <kparal> *splendidly
16:03:22 <roshi> all good here - a lot of driving to see family
16:03:24 * nirik is lurking in the back
16:03:26 * cmurf is like a phoenix, blows up in a ball of fire from time to time, so (re)materializers are handy
16:03:34 <roshi> glad for no more driving....
16:04:16 * handsome_pirate waves from the Crow's Nest
16:04:43 <brunowolff> I had a UPS die.
16:04:48 <cmurf> ooooo
16:04:56 <cmurf> brunowolff: did it warn you in advance?
16:04:57 <handsome_pirate> ouch
16:05:02 <adamw> danofsatx: i secretly despise you all, but let's keep the illusion going
16:05:15 <brunowolff> It's cold today and my work is partially shut down, so I am on vacation today.
16:05:21 <handsome_pirate> danofsatx:  Have you been fired yet?
16:05:30 <danofsatx> adamw: I'm cool w/ that :D
16:05:30 <adamw> y'know, i don't think he has
16:05:52 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  Then you must really hate him
16:06:04 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  I figure those that you fire the most are the ones you most love
16:06:20 <adamw> you keep telling yourself that
16:06:24 <danofsatx> nah, he can't fire me, since I was never hired.
16:06:28 <cmurf> well wait we have to fire him for something worthy
16:06:36 <adamw> oh, boy, he's just asking for it, ain't he boys and girls
16:06:41 <adamw> .fire danofsatx
16:06:41 <zodbot> adamw fires danofsatx
16:06:43 <handsome_pirate> He is
16:06:46 <handsome_pirate> lol
16:06:48 <adamw> candy from a baby.
16:06:56 <handsome_pirate> danofsatx:  As you can see, adamw has a macro
16:06:58 <danofsatx> yay! I'm important!
16:06:59 <tflink> adamw: you forgot a reason again, though
16:07:06 <adamw> tflink: it was implicit.
16:07:14 <brunowolff> I new the batteries and fan were bad for a while. An alarm went off and I couldn't restart the UPS once I turned it off. I have the new batteries, I bought a new t10 torx screw driver with a 6in shaft to be able to replace the fan, I am still waiting for a new fan to show up.
16:07:16 <cmurf> rofl
16:07:17 <cmurf> a reason
16:07:50 <tflink> brunowolff: that sounds like no fun :-/
16:07:52 * jreznik is lurking (meeting with guy renovating our kitchen)
16:08:11 <handsome_pirate> jreznik:  Pics or it didn't happen
16:08:12 <brunowolff> I think taking things apart you aren't supposed to is fun.
16:08:15 <adamw> ooh, let's see the swatches
16:08:53 <adamw> oh, god, why am I still talking to this G+ idiot
16:08:56 <adamw> "It's completely open-source, but the parts that aren't can easily be rewritten."
16:09:14 * Viking-Ice here
16:09:17 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  Wait, what?
16:09:19 <adamw> i need one of those patrick stewart gifs.
16:09:22 <adamw> handsome_pirate: exactly.
16:09:26 <brunowolff> The bad part of fixing the UPS is that I probaly would have bought a better one (sine wave output) if I had decided to replace it instead of fix it.
16:09:29 <tflink> brunowolff: sure, but for me, there's always an element of not-fun when you're not expecting it
16:09:31 <cmurf> adamw: yes i've been sucked into ?! convos this holiday break as well
16:09:33 <adamw> brunowolff: upgrade it!
16:10:03 <adamw> alright, i guess we could do some actual meeting stuff, like boring people.
16:10:05 <adamw> anyone bring donuts?
16:10:16 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  I have a salad
16:10:17 * danofsatx hides the donuts
16:10:27 <cmurf> the 2nd me keeps saying to me: WTF are you doing? you know better than this! not your first day at the rodeo boy!
16:10:35 <adamw> handsome_pirate: is it...a donut salad?
16:10:43 <cmurf> MMMM salad and coffee at 9am!
16:10:49 <brunowolff> Well I knew the batteries weren't holding much charge for a long time. The fan had also been making noise for 6 months, so I knew that was going to fail at sometime. The exact timing was a mild surprise, but I knew it was coming for a while.
16:10:54 <adamw> oh man, i have to leave right now to catch the BUS TO THE PATENT OFFICE
16:10:54 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  No, it's cucumbers, bacon, feta, and italian dressing
16:11:11 <Viking-Ice> way too little bacon
16:11:12 <cmurf> sounds good
16:11:19 <cmurf> just not with coffee
16:11:20 <adamw> #topic Previous meeting follow-up
16:11:28 <adamw> viking believes bacon should always be the first listed ingredient
16:11:38 * cmurf glances at the Laphroaig on the counter
16:11:40 <danofsatx> and the second, and third
16:11:53 <handsome_pirate> How about a plate of bacon with a side of bacon and a bacon milkshake
16:11:54 <cmurf> I wouldn't even put scotch in my coffee
16:12:00 <adamw> "Ingredients: Bacon. More bacon. Further bacon. Bacon. Preservative (bacon extract)"
16:12:02 <brunowolff> I like the the ones I have. They don't do sine wave output, but they are line interactive even when there is power external power. So they fix up low voltage.
16:12:20 <adamw> I don't know, I prefer my bacon with sine wave output.
16:12:32 <cmurf> TShirt says: It's Better with Bacon
16:12:40 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  When did you start eating bacon?
16:12:50 <adamw> handsome_pirate: shh, i'm trying to fit in here
16:13:03 <cmurf> oops too late
16:13:06 <cmurf> haha
16:13:20 <adamw> #info "adamw to send fedup/thinp post-mortem email" - I sent one - https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-December/119820.html - but didn't cover the thinp bug, whoops
16:13:25 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  Bacon is candy, not meat, so even vegetarians can eat it
16:13:29 <adamw> haha
16:13:50 <brunowolff> Well nice sine wave output comes with a $300 price tag. Having fun fixing the current UPS only is costing me around $80.
16:14:09 <handsome_pirate> brunowolff:  You have one up on me; I don't have a UPS
16:14:25 * roshi needs a new one
16:14:36 <handsome_pirate> brunowolff:  Closest I can come is I powered a laptop off a crapton of D batteries once during a hurricane
16:14:37 * danofsatx does too
16:14:40 <roshi> my current one died several years ago
16:14:50 <Viking-Ice> less bacon more meeting
16:14:58 <danofsatx> mine are all nothing more than power strips right now
16:15:09 <adamw> Viking-Ice: didn't you hear? this is the UPS SIG
16:15:15 <handsome_pirate> lol
16:15:24 <adamw> I guess I can send out another recap mail later this week, if people want a sequel
16:15:25 <roshi> which is tangent to the FEDEX SIG
16:15:25 * nb has no UPS
16:15:32 <handsome_pirate> We should do a Fedora powered UPS
16:15:34 <adamw> er, post-mortem
16:15:49 <adamw> handsome_pirate: every six months it switches to an exciting new voltage?
16:16:03 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  Exactly!
16:16:16 <Viking-Ice> I'm still waiting for UPS to deliver my christmas present from the states
16:16:27 <adamw> what'd you get? or is it a surprise?
16:17:23 <Viking-Ice> I spent $1400 on motorcross outfit from my to myself present
16:17:33 <Viking-Ice> s/my/me/
16:17:39 <handsome_pirate> nice
16:18:13 <adamw> do you shoot arrows from a speeding motorcycle? oh please say yes.
16:18:27 <Viking-Ice> no just four legged horses
16:18:32 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  I did motorcycle jousting once
16:18:32 <Viking-Ice> no motor involved
16:18:53 <cmurf> adamw: so i know i'm supposed to do two somethings but i'm intentionally waiting until people have kinda almost sorta caught up with the idea that they do have a job, and have sifted through their most interesting holiday emails
16:18:54 <roshi> are there other-legged horses in Iceland?
16:19:04 <jokerdino> Hm, is this the QA meeting?
16:19:07 <brunowolff> So is the outfit just the leather suit you where or does it include the vehicle you ride?
16:19:10 <roshi> it is
16:19:12 <roshi> jokerdino:
16:19:15 <adamw> roshi: well with all the arrows around, probably
16:19:21 <adamw> jokerdino: believe it or not, yes :)
16:19:24 <brunowolff> Being social was on the agenda for today.
16:19:27 <Viking-Ice> jokerdino, in theory yes
16:19:33 <adamw> jokerdino: it can get quiet around here early in release cycles...
16:19:34 <jokerdino> I might have missed the agenda.
16:19:34 <roshi> everyone is missing each other
16:19:35 <tflink> we seem to be having trouble staying focused today, though :)
16:19:36 <roshi> or something
16:19:50 <adamw> okay, serious faces everyone
16:19:52 <handsome_pirate> tflink:  Uniicorn!
16:20:00 <handsome_pirate> Unicorn, even
16:20:06 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  pony!
16:20:11 <cmurf> ;-P
16:20:12 <adamw> #topic QA/Join page revision
16:20:14 <handsome_pirate> Viking-Ice:  Dragon!
16:20:14 <adamw> NOT HELPING
16:20:17 <cmurf> serious face
16:20:29 <roshi> look at that danofsatx, we made the agenda!
16:20:35 <danofsatx> yay!
16:20:37 <adamw> so mike (roshi) and danofsatx came up with a proposal for a revised QA/Join page, yay
16:20:41 <adamw> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2014-January/119890.html
16:20:54 <adamw> #info roshi and danofsatx came up with a proposal for a revised QA/Join page
16:21:01 <roshi> I'm going to implement the changes seen in list, and hit up the channel for review once more
16:21:04 <Viking-Ice> was the revision made with the removal of bugzapper and triaging as well as swapping out tflink for qa-devel?
16:21:06 <adamw> anyone got any feedback on it while they're here?
16:21:08 <jokerdino> Oh yes. I remember responding to that email
16:21:13 <roshi> not yet
16:21:18 <adamw> #info roshi will send out a new draft based on list feedback
16:21:25 <roshi> I've been on the road, and just got home
16:21:46 <handsome_pirate> Sounds like grounds for getting fired
16:21:53 <roshi> but yeah Viking-Ice, I'll take out all the links/mentions to bugzappers and proven testers
16:22:08 * tflink hasn't gotten to that thread yet today
16:22:41 <roshi> handsome_pirate, psh, no way
16:22:43 <kparal> I still have about 700 emails to read. but the draft looks good at the first glance
16:22:54 <jokerdino> I do think that page shouldn't be a one stop shop for all things QA. But it should have links to everything that our team covers.
16:22:56 <adamw> #info general agreement to try and avoid mentioning 'bugzappers' and 'proven testers' directly to avoid confusion
16:23:15 <roshi> I think email pruning is top on everyone's list
16:23:29 <Viking-Ice> on that note the general replacement approach for merging reporting/triaging is proceeding around file one triage one
16:23:32 <roshi> I see the page as more of a hub or a QA Map
16:23:48 <adamw> roshi: yeah, that was my aim for it too
16:24:04 <danofsatx> I'm still reading the email (was having issues @home), but jokerdino - that's the direction roshi and I were trying to take it.
16:24:05 <roshi> Viking-Ice, I can help with that if you like
16:24:24 <roshi> adamw, yeah - and it does that IMO
16:24:31 <danofsatx> it should serve as the introductory page to the QA team, and lead people to what they're looking for, it shouldn't be the entire QA mantra
16:24:50 <adamw> #info seems like everyone's happy with the current approach to the rewrite, thanks for the work roshi and danofsatx
16:24:52 <roshi> We didn't add much, just reorganized really
16:24:59 <handsome_pirate> +1
16:25:01 <brunowolff> If you mention someone by name as the tools lead (or for any specific position), it may be worth using a macro so that the name can be changed in one place. That way when the person changes, you don't need to go searching all over the place to find all of the references that need to be updated.
16:25:02 <jokerdino> danofsatx: Yeah. :)
16:25:13 <roshi> though, if we could come up with an official Mantra, that could be cool
16:25:21 <adamw> brunowolff: we can probably factor it out.
16:25:42 <handsome_pirate> roshi:  "We are QA, we will test"  in zombie-like voice
16:25:44 <adamw> roshi: oh, that's easy, "It Boots, Ship It!"
16:25:54 <handsome_pirate> I like that better
16:26:04 <roshi> rofl
16:26:09 <Viking-Ice> roshi, the wording perhaps ones I have figured out the correct approach(e)s
16:26:27 <cmurf> motto: test for 14 hours straight, head to the bar, get up at the ass crack of dawn to snowboard
16:26:27 <roshi> I feel like that would come across better if it was written in latin
16:26:45 <cmurf> haha
16:26:48 <adamw> hehe
16:27:09 <adamw> okay, i had one bonus topic
16:27:11 <cmurf> roshi: with the proper font, now you're talking at *least* another 2 hours of revisions
16:27:14 <adamw> #topic Meeting minutes
16:27:26 <jokerdino> > Si velit, quse
16:27:28 <roshi> Latin: Quod iuvat, navis it!
16:27:41 <adamw> so, we have this thing at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings
16:28:00 <danofsatx> we do?  cool....
16:28:03 <adamw> where we post what is basically the minutes for each meeting in a fiddly wiki format, and then I mail them to the mailing list
16:28:37 <adamw> i've been doing that stuff by hand for...um...four years? now, and it's kind of a pain
16:28:47 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  I never can figure out how you do the wiki format
16:28:54 <cmurf> Semi-operatur, ita operatur.
16:28:55 <Viking-Ice> adamw, I manually added all the info a while back
16:28:55 <handsome_pirate> Oh, it's by hand
16:29:01 <jokerdino> Is it moinmoin adamw?
16:29:05 <adamw> handsome_pirate: i hand write it. the log is done by irclog2html
16:29:06 <Viking-Ice> when I created that page
16:29:24 <jokerdino> Because I passionately hate MoinMoin.
16:29:27 <tflink> yeah, those minutes are no fun. I've done it a few times
16:29:31 <adamw> so the thing is, i went and looked, and it looks like we didn't have meetbot prior to mid-2009
16:29:32 <tflink> jokerdino: mediawiki
16:29:38 <Viking-Ice> well the original meeting page
16:29:57 <adamw> Viking-Ice: is that why we have the page and the hand-written minutes? just because we've been recording them for a long time and there was no handy helper back in 2006?
16:30:12 <jokerdino> tflink: ah, slightly less worse.
16:30:16 <adamw> jokerdino: fedora wiki is mediawiki
16:30:22 <adamw> oops, late!
16:30:32 <kparal> kill the manual minutes page and just stick there a hyperlink to meetbot page
16:30:39 <adamw> #info currently we keep meeting minutes in a hand-written format at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings
16:30:47 <adamw> kparal: right, that was going to be my proposal in a nutshell
16:30:55 <kparal> adamw: fully supported
16:30:56 <tflink> +1
16:30:57 <roshi> +1
16:31:02 <handsome_pirate> kparal:  That's what I tend to do when I chair meetings
16:31:04 <jokerdino> +1
16:31:11 <jokerdino> I don't think I have voting priv though. xD
16:31:27 <kparal> jokerdino: you can vote just fine. it depends who counts it, though ;)
16:31:29 <roshi> if the minutes needed to be on the wiki, just a copy/paste from the meetbot page
16:31:31 <nb> +1
16:31:41 <Viking-Ice> adamw, hand written equals no meetbot if I can recall
16:31:44 <Viking-Ice> correctly
16:31:48 <handsome_pirate> Aye
16:31:50 <brunowolff> +1 for linking to the meetbot page.
16:31:50 <adamw> #proposed since we have meetbot now and we're reasonably good at using it, can we just make the links from QA/Meetings point to the meetbot HTML minutes, and post the meetbot text minutes to the list post-release?
16:32:14 <danofsatx> +1
16:32:15 <Viking-Ice> jokerdino, there is no voting in QA and never will be
16:32:33 <adamw> jokerdino: there's no formal voting members or anything
16:32:44 <danofsatx> ok then, -1
16:32:45 <Viking-Ice> well we do vote on blocker bugs but that's about it
16:32:47 <adamw> this is more kind of consensus gathering
16:32:48 <adamw> Viking-Ice: yeah
16:32:50 <danofsatx> there, I'm even
16:33:02 <roshi> basically, someone throws out a proposal and you get feedback
16:33:07 <handsome_pirate> I vote +1 bacon, ponies, and unicorns
16:33:32 <adamw> handsome_pirate: i'll get some bacon in there somewhere
16:33:36 <jokerdino> Viking-Ice, adamw, got it.
16:33:42 <adamw> so we would be losing one small thing with this approach
16:33:44 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  For the win
16:34:03 <adamw> #info the wiki meeting pages are usually created before the meeting and in theory can be edited to add something to the agenda
16:34:03 <Viking-Ice> we need to save time anywhere we can so if we can optimize the meeting workflow let's optimize it
16:34:23 <adamw> but in practice that's rarely used, and i think just responding to the meeting announce email with a topic suggestion should be fine
16:34:46 <adamw> so, sounds like everyone likes the idea, yaay. thanks folks :)
16:34:49 <roshi> how many people knew about and look at the meeting page before the meeting?
16:34:49 <Viking-Ice> well the meeting announce email must go out no later then each friday so people can respond to it
16:35:11 <adamw> Viking-Ice: yeah, i've sucked at that recently sometimes, i'll try and get better
16:35:11 <Viking-Ice> out before meeting does not cut it
16:35:12 <kparal> roshi: when I chair the meeting, I check out the page :)
16:35:14 <adamw> since it'll matter more now
16:35:18 <handsome_pirate> roshi:  I tend to
16:35:27 <handsome_pirate> roshi:  Especially when I chair
16:35:31 <Viking-Ice> why should it matter more now?
16:35:33 <jokerdino> Yes. Sending out earlier on the day makes me want to attend the meeting.
16:35:41 <adamw> #agreed from 2014 on, we'll drop the manual handling of meeting minutes and do it all via meetbot
16:35:41 <handsome_pirate> But, I can just as easily look at the email
16:36:13 <adamw> Viking-Ice: well, in theory you had a way to submit stuff for the agenda even before the announcement went out, before, now you don't. but meh.
16:36:14 <kparal> btw I have put the meeting into fedocal again, for 2014
16:36:23 <adamw> kparal: thanks...i really need to force myself to use that more
16:36:31 <adamw> it was an idea i was supporting in the first place, heh
16:36:41 <adamw> #info side note: kparal has added the meeting schedule to fedocal for 2014
16:36:44 <kparal> adamw: the UI is terrible and ical is unfortunately not supported
16:37:08 <jokerdino> kparal: is Google Cal supported?
16:37:12 <Viking-Ice> is anyone that does not own an android phone here ( hence is linked to google calender )
16:37:14 <roshi> what is this fascination with iCal?
16:37:24 <adamw> roshi: ical's become a fairly generic interchange format
16:37:24 <jokerdino> I mean, I don't know what this fedocal is
16:37:25 <Viking-Ice> not linked I mean
16:37:25 <kparal> roshi: I might have mixed up the protocol name
16:37:37 <roshi> ah
16:37:40 <adamw> kparal: is https://fedocal.dev.fedoraproject.org/ still the live fedocal? (doesn't seem to be up atm)
16:37:44 <handsome_pirate> Viking-Ice:  I don't have an Android phone
16:37:45 <tflink> I have an android phone for the moment, but I don't use google calendar
16:37:53 <kparal> adamw: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/QA/
16:37:53 <handsome_pirate> Viking-Ice:  I don't have a phone at all
16:37:55 <adamw> yeah, i don't use google calendar either
16:37:57 <roshi> I never used it, thought it was a proprietary cal format
16:38:01 <adamw> kparal: aha, thanks
16:38:02 * tflink is planning to move to firefox os as soon as they support caldav
16:38:08 <adamw> #info fedocal link for QA: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/QA/
16:38:10 <handsome_pirate> tflink:  What happened to the Windows phone?
16:38:13 <kparal> add this to your calendar: http://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar//calendar/ical/QA/
16:38:26 <pingou> tflink: caldav is already there it's the two way sync w/ offline that's not :(
16:38:31 <kparal> so, ical is supported, but only as fetch, but not as pull
16:38:34 <cmurf> roshi: I think it's an IETF standard
16:38:45 <roshi> TIL
16:38:48 <tflink> handsome_pirate: long story short, I got fed up with my email provider and switched to one that supports caldav/carddav
16:38:49 <Viking-Ice> tflink, kparal since you are both here did vrutkovs manage to get in touch with either one of you
16:38:55 <brunowolff> Are you sure about no ical? I can reference fedocal meetings with URLs like: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/ical/fedora-meeting/
16:39:00 <adamw> kparal: we should definitely aim to get the f21 dev schedule into it
16:39:07 <handsome_pirate> tflink:  Ah
16:39:14 <tflink> Viking-Ice: I've not seen anything, no
16:39:18 <adamw> brunowolff: "ical is supported, but only as fetch, but not as pull"
16:39:20 * handsome_pirate glories in his dial rotary phone on a land line
16:39:25 <kparal> I meant that I would like to manage our QA calendar inside evolution/thunderbird/google calendar instead of the terrible web ui
16:39:27 <kparal> but I can't
16:39:31 <jreznik> adamw, there's no api now to get it imported
16:39:36 <pingou> kparal: sorry :(
16:39:36 <kparal> so the remote update protocol support is missing
16:39:40 <kparal> whatever the name it
16:39:41 <Viking-Ice> tflink, " I'm from RH's Desktop QE team and we'd like to use fedora's beaker to run automated tests on some desktop components"
16:39:41 <jreznik> but I'm in touch with pingou
16:39:51 <tflink> Viking-Ice: was that on test@?
16:40:03 <kparal> pingou: sorry for the strong words. I understand you write it from scratch
16:40:07 <adamw> #topic open floor
16:40:08 <brunowolff> I got behind while checking thunderbird. But still isn't ical being read only and caldav being read/write expected?
16:40:13 <Viking-Ice> irc couple of days ago both of you where offline
16:40:13 <cmurf> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2445
16:40:17 <pingou> jreznik: upload a vcs file will be there on the next version I promise
16:40:27 * adamw doesn't even get out of bed for a calendar with no caldav
16:40:39 * tflink makes a note to check his irc logs
16:40:40 * handsome_pirate doesn't do calendars
16:40:53 <pingou> kparal: no problem
16:41:01 <tflink> Viking-Ice: thanks for the heads up, I apparently missed that
16:41:06 <kparal> brunowolff: so I meant caldav, sorry for confusion
16:41:14 <cmurf> here it is, the actual proposed standard
16:41:15 <cmurf> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6868
16:41:23 <cmurf> that's the current one as of feb 2013
16:41:26 <cmurf> ical format
16:41:36 <cmurf> also includes vcards
16:41:37 <roshi> ok, cool
16:41:39 <handsome_pirate> tflink:  kparal:  Should we schedule a meeting re taskotron?
16:41:41 <Viking-Ice> everyone saw the glorius future Matt bestowed upon us @test and I assume that everyone saw the reality check I gave him in return
16:42:06 <handsome_pirate> Viking-Ice:  No, I missed that
16:42:08 <Viking-Ice> basically we have to cover 2000 component if the output from the baseWG wont get reduced so I think we are booked for the year
16:42:17 <kparal> Viking-Ice: I haven't been contacted by vrutkovsk
16:42:21 <handsome_pirate> Viking-Ice:  Or, I saw it, but can't remember it
16:42:26 <tflink> handsome_pirate: I was thinking something similar - a qa-devel meeting to discuss all the devel projects we've been talking about and planning as of late
16:42:54 <adamw> Viking-Ice: yeah, I saw matt's mail. really wasn't sure what to say.
16:43:03 * kparal hasn't read that yet
16:43:07 <adamw> Viking-Ice: i didn't see your reply, though, where did it go?
16:43:12 <cmurf> what what what?
16:43:15 <cmurf> URL?
16:43:16 <handsome_pirate> tflink:  Schedule it for earlier in the day so we don't have issues with kparal and josef being up too late?
16:43:17 <Viking-Ice> we are roughly 20 - 30 "active" qa community members as things stand now ( based on the group signup and adamw output for that anniversary 10 shirt)
16:43:20 <danofsatx> it's there, I saw it. makes sense to me.
16:43:47 <handsome_pirate> Wait, what anniversary shirts?
16:43:47 <jokerdino> Viking-Ice: I didn't know you guys do T-shirts.
16:43:49 <tflink> handsome_pirate: assuming the folks from beijing aren't interested in attending, yes :)
16:43:58 <adamw> #info Viking-Ice points out Matthew Miller's mail about plans for 2014, https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2014-January/193401.html
16:44:00 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  How can I get in on Fedora anniversary shirts?
16:44:10 <handsome_pirate> Why am I missing so many emails all of a sudden
16:44:17 <cmurf> oh yes i saw that after all but didn't read it all
16:44:32 <cmurf> handsome_pirate: persistent digestion
16:44:33 <adamw> handsome_pirate: this one's coming from some other group, they mailed me privately asking for a list of significant QA contributors over the years
16:44:35 <cmurf> holiday thing
16:44:45 <Viking-Ice> of that maybe <8 hours  can be assigned to RH Fedora QA and puff tops 2.5 hours a per day ( probably well overestimating here )  for volunteers the next and wg groups can simply do the math on their own
16:44:48 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  Ah
16:44:59 <adamw> handsome_pirate: they only have a limited number of shirts, i left RH staff off the list for now
16:44:59 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  Put me down for a 3/4X :)
16:45:00 <danofsatx> Viking-Ice 's reply: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2014-January/119919.html
16:45:16 <adamw> but since people are interested maybe i should send out a public mail about it
16:45:38 <Viking-Ice> long story put short we are way to few to do anything meaningful
16:45:42 <adamw> danofsatx: oh, he replied to the link to the post matthew sent to test@, seen
16:45:50 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  I guess I fall into the 'significant contributor' status
16:45:59 <handsome_pirate> Viking-Ice:   +1
16:46:02 <cmurf> continuous delivery vs rolling release
16:46:05 <cmurf> the difference is?
16:46:12 <cmurf> distinction rather
16:46:13 <handsome_pirate> Viking-Ice:  That's been my issue with the whole fedora.next thing from the start
16:46:16 <jokerdino> Viking-Ice: 30-ish is still short?
16:46:30 <adamw> jokerdino: to test an entire operating system that releases every six months? heck, yes
16:46:38 <handsome_pirate> The WGs need to participate in QAing their own products
16:46:38 <adamw> we barely cover the surface
16:46:49 <Viking-Ice> jokerdino, 20 is about the number that has signed up in the re-activated group
16:46:58 <cmurf> handsome_pirate: yeah i said something like that last month or two
16:47:18 <jokerdino> adamw: when you mean entire OS, is it every single package or a selected set of packages but for every feature?
16:47:32 <handsome_pirate> I guess now the question becomes:  Do we (As QA) put our foot down on this for FESCo?
16:47:32 <jokerdino> Viking-Ice: reactivated group? What did I miss?
16:47:33 <cmurf> is this weren't free and open source, i'd say we'd run it like the navy and make people switch jobs every couple years
16:47:34 * satellit_e do outside testers get counted?
16:47:37 <Viking-Ice> jokerdino, you can skip jesse, james, will, bill and autotask from that lsit
16:47:54 <adamw> jokerdino: we turned the 'qa' group in FAS back on, did you get added yet?
16:47:59 <adamw> satellit: counted for what?
16:47:59 <handsome_pirate> satellit_e:  You're counted
16:48:04 <Viking-Ice> satellit_e, you need to add yourself to that group
16:48:04 <adamw> oh i see
16:48:04 <roshi> jokerdino what we *actually test* is different from what we *want* to test
16:48:20 <satellit> how
16:48:28 <adamw> Viking-Ice: i thought he was in already
16:48:39 <Viking-Ice> if he's in he's counted in that number
16:48:41 * nirik thinks things are still too vuage to really discuss from a qa angle. Hopefully after product docs are in then would be time to see whats proposed to be produced, what testing it needs, how to do it, or change whats produced, etc
16:49:03 <jokerdino> adamw: I guess not.
16:49:22 * tflink agrees with nirik - there's not enough substance yet to be clear on what testing is going to be required
16:49:40 <Viking-Ice> nirik, irrelevant our focus is on baseWG ( 2k components ) so the products output will be just that product outputs and the community surrounding those products will have to test it themselves
16:49:51 <handsome_pirate> I still think that WG members should play a signifcant role in testing their product
16:49:58 <tflink> I suspect that there are going to be some unrealistic expectations once the WG output is presented but we'll have to cross that bridge when we get there
16:50:07 <jokerdino> roshi: as always. :)
16:50:20 <roshi> :)
16:50:25 <nirik> Viking-Ice: you keep saying that... I don't recally any discussion and consensus to that effect. Did I miss it?
16:50:40 <nirik> tflink: could be... and then it should be reigned in...
16:50:51 <cmurf> triage
16:50:57 <Viking-Ice> nirik, it's what our purpose has been from the get go
16:51:08 <tflink> nirik: yep, either way - not something we can really deal with at the moment
16:51:13 <cmurf> some things simply will not get done
16:51:14 <nirik> Viking-Ice: qa has always done more than "base components"
16:51:26 <cmurf> if they're really important, it's an opportunity to recruit more help
16:51:29 <adamw> reined in. REINED IN, dammit.
16:51:35 <adamw> .fire nirik
16:51:36 <zodbot> adamw fires nirik
16:51:40 <nirik> thanks. :)
16:51:48 <tflink> .fire adamw for not giving reasons for the firings
16:51:48 <zodbot> adamw fires adamw for not giving reasons for the firings
16:51:56 <Viking-Ice> nirik, qa has always had the primary focus on base
16:51:58 <adamw> nirik: we don't do much more than base components, to be honest. outside of test days and desktop validation.
16:51:59 <handsome_pirate> lol
16:52:10 <adamw> .fire tflink
16:52:10 <zodbot> adamw fires tflink
16:52:14 <handsome_pirate> nirik:  Indeed
16:52:32 <roshi> even it it was just "base components" would that be ensuring those components worked on all the products?
16:52:33 <tflink> adamw: is taht because we won't do it or because we don't have the humans to do the testing, though?
16:52:37 <roshi> hypothetically
16:52:54 <handsome_pirate> nirik:  About the only thing we test outside of base is basic desktop functionality
16:52:55 <nirik> adamw: depends on what you mean by base... Viking-Ice was talking about the base working group stuff, but gnome is not in that set... really it's KDE and Gnome... but also common other bugs, testing of stable releases, etc
16:53:03 <brunowolff> .fire tflink for not deducing that using reign instead of rein (which have completely different meanings) was the reason for the firing.
16:53:03 <zodbot> adamw fires tflink for not deducing that using reign instead of rein (which have completely different meanings) was the reason for the firing.
16:53:08 * roshi was always under the impression it was due to lack of people tflink
16:53:16 <adamw> tflink: it's an interesting question, but i basically agree with you that in practice we need some kind of concrete basis for the discussion
16:53:34 <Viking-Ice> nirik, desktop testing goes away with the output of the workstation group and into that community
16:53:37 <adamw> trying to discuss it while we have no idea what kinds of things the WGs and fesco are going to agree on is hard
16:53:44 <tflink> I'm certainly not saying that we should try to do everything
16:53:58 <nirik> Viking-Ice: according to you?
16:53:59 <adamw> roshi: well, there's an organizational question too
16:54:14 <tflink> and I definitely want to avoid another cloud wg "we do testing" fantasy land, either
16:54:15 <adamw> roshi: tflink's implicit point is, even if 'QA' had 500 people, do we want to be The One Group That Does All The Testing?
16:54:15 <Viking-Ice> nirik, yes and I'll be dammed if that changes the fact is 2k components is more then an handful to built automation and test cases for
16:54:24 <adamw> roshi: or is that a bad design even if we theoretically have the people?
16:54:46 <cmurf> adamw: it leads to complacency
16:54:47 <adamw> roshi: it's an interesting question what the Fedora organizational level plan for testing should look like in a Fedora.next world, but we really don't have the information to even argue about it now...
16:54:50 <cmurf> "oh just have QA test it"
16:54:57 <Viking-Ice> nirik, I know you fesco guys like to bypass our processes it's time if you are going to decide those things for us you start managing it yourselves
16:54:59 <tflink> cmurf: that's what I'm afraid of
16:55:08 <Viking-Ice> cmurf, right
16:55:13 <cmurf> programmers like coding
16:55:31 <cmurf> and they don't mind debugging the code
16:55:37 <cmurf> testing…yawn it's boring
16:55:39 * handsome_pirate notes that there is a grain of truth to Viking-Ice's statement
16:55:40 <tflink> true, but I also think that they'd be interested in helping test some things
16:55:42 <cmurf> let QA do it
16:55:50 <cmurf> but then if no QA it's
16:55:53 <Viking-Ice> we do not have resources even to deal with status qou as things are now in 6 month cycle and never have been able to deal with it
16:55:54 <cmurf> "oh just have users file a bug"
16:56:02 <nirik> I agree we dont what: "oh, qa can just test all this
16:56:04 <roshi> right adamw, I don't know that we could even decide that until we have the people
16:56:18 <handsome_pirate> nirik:  I'm afraid that's exactly what will happen
16:56:24 <nirik> but I also think we don't want: "oh, qa will only test base, screw you all, we won't help you do anything else"
16:56:36 <tflink> Viking-Ice: sure, but sitting here and refusing to even consider other options is probably not the best way to go about doing things
16:56:40 <roshi> I feel like QA should be outside WG's, but to be a WG you have to "donate" x-number of people to QA per release
16:56:41 <handsome_pirate> nirik:  I see nothing at all in the WG's outputs so far to do with testing
16:56:54 <handsome_pirate> roshi:   +1
16:57:10 <nirik> well, what do you want to see? "we will test all our own stuff completely seperately from qa, we hate those guys"
16:57:15 <cmurf> nirik: I think it's "QA will only test what it has the capacity to test, here are our rings of priority, where does your package fit in the ring? ask"
16:57:23 <roshi> like, to even *be* a WG, you have to have n number of testers to give to QA efforts
16:57:28 <tflink> roshi: not a bad idea, but I'd rather phrase it as helping enable WGs to do their own testing instead of trying to do everything ourselves
16:57:30 <handsome_pirate> nirik:  No, we want WG's to commit resources to help us out
16:57:35 <cmurf> but that's also why i'm in favor of the monster test matrix that shows this, with the bonus points portion
16:57:37 <roshi> and to do QA stuff for things outside your WG as well
16:57:41 <roshi> to do QA
16:57:45 <Viking-Ice> tflink, there is no other option for us then start taking proper care for base people just need accept reality in that regard
16:57:51 <nirik> cmurf: sure, I was thinking it would be: "here's what we want to produce, can you help us figure out how best to test this and what resouces we need to help provide"
16:57:53 * satellit I worry about my DE sugar-desktop's future here
16:58:03 <Viking-Ice> we simply dont have the resources neither does releng to handle spins or multiple products and what not
16:58:08 <cmurf> i suspect the bonus points section of test matrix will indicate where the interest is, which is how it should be. no one wants to voluntarily test? OK there you go...
16:58:11 <adamw> i'd characterize it as 'whatever plan FESCo comes up with for the immediate and long-term future needs to consider what we can realistically produce *and test* with the resources available"
16:58:24 <nirik> cmurf: and some of the answer might be "we cant do foo, please see if there's a better way, perhaps you produce bar"
16:58:33 <nirik> adamw: absolutely
16:58:44 <brunowolff> And they need to include priorities for what they want tested.
16:58:45 <tflink> Viking-Ice: and I disagree with you on that point - there are always other options
16:58:46 <cmurf> niriki: right, and I suspect the default is going to be "we can help you write up a test case, and give you an entry in the matrix, with a smile"
16:58:54 <tflink> that don't involve us doing _all_ the testing
16:59:07 <cmurf> doesn't involve us necessarily doing any testing
16:59:17 <tflink> I agree that qa as it is today can't scale to everything that might come out of fedora.next
16:59:45 <tflink> however, I disagree that we can't change things up so that testing in fedora _can_ scale to the things that come out of fedora.next
16:59:47 <Viking-Ice> tflink, I have yet to see any movement in anaconda's  ( our testing hog ) release cycle to make any changes to their cycle to make room to test anything else
16:59:55 <cmurf> tflink: i agree
16:59:59 <adamw> i kinda feel like we're all more or less in the same place...
17:00:02 <cmurf> i think we need to be better with recruiting QA people
17:00:12 <roshi> +1 cmurf
17:00:12 <Viking-Ice> cmurf, or keeping them
17:00:13 <adamw> #action adamw to send a mail to test@ about the ten year t-shirt thing
17:00:18 <tflink> recruiting and making the processes less painful/obscure
17:00:28 <cmurf> and i think the feature process ought to include some concept of recruiting testers
17:00:54 <tflink> I think our tools and processes need some work before we start trying to get new people
17:01:02 <jreznik> cmurf, feature process?
17:01:19 <tflink> er, focusing too much on recruitment alone, rather
17:01:20 <cmurf> yes, new features
17:01:20 <Viking-Ice> tflink, writing test cases for automation takes time as well as manual and testing takes time
17:01:20 <Viking-Ice> cmurf, the sub community recruite their own community members to do qa
17:01:36 <tflink> Viking-Ice: and you think that I don't know that because ... why, exactly?
17:01:46 <cmurf> uhh
17:01:54 <Viking-Ice> tflink, because it's the only way forward
17:02:12 <tflink> Viking-Ice: I don't follow
17:02:29 <tflink> automation isn't the cure-all. it never has been and never will be
17:02:34 <Viking-Ice> the sub community be given the freedom as well as the responsibility to dictate,decide,releases and manage anything on top of base
17:02:49 <cmurf> i'm even thinking of features within base
17:02:50 <Viking-Ice> it's the community that's doing the work for it's product
17:02:50 <roshi> I agree with tflink, working on the onboarding and tools process would be beneficial
17:03:29 <tflink> but working on automation and tooling to make human testers more efficient (and less likely to bang their heads on keyboards) is a good start
17:03:36 <adamw> we're a little over time, folks
17:03:41 <adamw> okay to move this to #fedora-qa ?
17:03:50 <roshi> you and your time adamw
17:03:53 <roshi> :p
17:04:18 <danofsatx> it's those pesky "rules" again.
17:04:30 <adamw> #info once again, we all registered concern at the direction of the Fedora.next project and its implications for testing given the apparent broadening of the scope of deliverables without a plan in place for testing
17:04:47 <jokerdino> I didn't realize this wasn't fedora-qa
17:04:55 * handsome_pirate notes that we are all in agreement that we are concerned
17:04:56 <adamw> hehe
17:05:14 <jokerdino> I am concerned too. I need to know about Fedora.next.
17:05:20 <adamw> okay, thanks for coming everyone...let's hope we at least get some concrete details about what's actually happening for Fedora 21 soon
17:05:23 * satellit concern here
17:05:29 <adamw> jokerdino: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora.next
17:05:33 <roshi> jokerdino he means moving to the #fedora-qa channel
17:05:43 <Viking-Ice> concern is putting it mildly when we cant properly manage things as they are do day and have been for ages
17:05:52 <adamw> #endmeeting