15:00:42 <adamw> #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting
15:00:42 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon May  4 15:00:42 2020 UTC.
15:00:42 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:42 <zodbot> The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:42 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:42 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_qa_meeting'
15:00:45 <adamw> #meetingname fedora-qa
15:00:45 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
15:00:49 <adamw> #topic Roll call
15:00:52 <adamw> ahoyhoy folks
15:00:55 <adamw> who's around for QA fun
15:01:50 * cyberpear listens in
15:03:32 * adamw watches tumbleweeds blow by
15:03:42 <adamw> must be a holiday in europe...
15:03:57 * sumantro is here
15:04:07 <sumantro> .hello sumantrom
15:04:08 <zodbot> sumantro: sumantrom 'Sumantro Mukherjee' <sumukher@redhat.com>
15:04:27 <sumantro> hey adamw !
15:04:45 <tflink> morning
15:05:25 <sumantro> tflink, morning o/
15:05:57 <lruzicka> .hello2
15:05:58 <zodbot> lruzicka: lruzicka 'Lukáš Růžička' <lruzicka@redhat.com>
15:06:05 <frantisekz> .hello2
15:06:06 <zodbot> frantisekz: frantisekz 'František Zatloukal' <fzatlouk@redhat.com>
15:06:08 <Lailah> Hello folks!
15:06:14 <Lailah> .fas lailah
15:06:15 <zodbot> Lailah: lailah 'Sylvia Sánchez' <BHKohane@gmail.com>
15:06:47 <adamw> hmmm so everyone's just late huh
15:06:48 <adamw> .fire everyone
15:06:49 <zodbot> adamw fires everyone
15:07:03 <Lailah> WUT?
15:07:18 <Lailah> Why am I fired?
15:07:46 <Lailah> adamw:  I'm always late. Why are you surprised?
15:08:49 * coremodule is here, late
15:09:32 <adamw> Lailah: so customary tardiness should be preferred over exceptional tardiness? an interesting theory!
15:09:39 <adamw> .hire lailah fine, you win this round
15:09:39 <zodbot> adamw hires lailah fine, you win this round
15:09:50 * Lailah pats coremodule in the shoulder and says  "we're all late"
15:10:28 * coremodule looks around, slowly backs out the door he came in, trying to avoid conflict
15:10:40 <adamw> .fire coremodule especially hard
15:10:40 <zodbot> adamw fires coremodule especially hard
15:10:47 <Lailah> Wow.
15:10:47 <adamw> whew, i feel better now
15:10:56 <adamw> #topic Previous meeting follow-up
15:12:02 <coremodule> we're all fired down here
15:12:11 <adamw> #agreed everyone is fired and we're all going home
15:12:31 <Lailah> Eh, no.
15:12:34 <Lailah> I have bugs!
15:12:52 <adamw> #info "adamw to file a council ticket, tagging bcotton, to request that any Fedora 33 changes to release-blocking deliverables and/or primary Editions be made early and clearly communicated and planned for" - did that, https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/296
15:13:11 <adamw> Lailah: i hear you can make a delicious meal from them these days
15:13:36 <adamw> #info "adamw to put mboddu in touch with some of the Lenovo laptop folks for discussions on anything they need from releng" - did that too, looks like things are all good on that front
15:13:41 <Lailah> adamw:  Eeewwww...   the image in my mind!  I can't take it!
15:13:57 <coremodule> boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew
15:14:11 <adamw> #info "adamw to ask Lenovo folks to introduce themselves on test@ and take questions, if they're willing to do that" - did that too, but they picked devel@ instead, the crazy fools
15:14:23 <Lailah> coremodule:  that sounds like potatoes...
15:14:38 <adamw> Lailah: i highly recommend you do not click https://duckduckgo.com/?q=insect+dishes&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images
15:14:55 <Lailah> adamw: Why did they picked devel@ ?
15:15:06 <Lailah> Ugghh...  no thanks
15:15:07 <adamw> dunno, but it does the job, i guess....so you can follow the discussion over there
15:15:13 <adamw> and ask any questions you might have
15:15:18 <coremodule> OVER THE LINE
15:15:21 <Lailah> Okay. Fair enough.
15:16:01 * adamw finds the thread link
15:16:33 * Lailah goes to make a cup of tea
15:17:01 <adamw> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/GFOY7TECYS74SHM7ESI6YTBK576JY3MX/ <--- lenovo thread
15:17:16 <adamw> #info "adamw to find someone to do F32 Heroes of Fedora posts" - did that too, coremodule has volunteered
15:17:22 <adamw> .hire coremodule again until he's done
15:17:22 <zodbot> adamw hires coremodule again until he's done
15:17:30 <coremodule> awww sheesh
15:17:56 <coremodule> they will be published in a day or two
15:18:39 <adamw> thanks coremodule
15:18:44 <adamw> any other followup on last week?
15:19:00 <coremodule> you got it!
15:21:26 <adamw> okely dokely
15:23:03 <adamw> #topic Proposals: backgrounds criterion, last-minute blocker process, service manipulation test case, user switching...
15:23:15 <adamw> so since we didn't get enough time last week, here's a topic for all the proposals we currently have swirling around
15:23:31 <Lailah> Okay
15:24:12 <adamw> #info the backgrounds criterion proposal is https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/SBMZR25HCLKUVBKIBFNFGQURN6XENCIV/ , proposed by sgallagh
15:24:56 <adamw> there's been some discussion, it doesn't seem to have a consensus yet
15:25:27 <adamw> #info the late blocker exception change proposal is https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/QNGVOWUN55NECQXHQMUB5VV7FTWUP543/ , proposed by bcotton
15:25:45 <adamw> again there's been some back and forth, not quite sure where we stand on that one right now
15:26:09 <adamw> #info the service manipulation test case proposal is https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/KZCUBYO2OD34SVIDNMIJAUNVDKSFP3ZF/ , proposed by coremodule
15:26:30 <adamw> that one i'd say we have a consensus that it's fine to change it if you can find a sufficiently widely-installed and reliable service, coremodule...
15:27:24 <adamw> #info on user switching, desktop team has agreed it should be release blocking: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/T77UKHGX4RONIDSN2RGCVXB7PME56WPD/
15:27:39 <adamw> so since kparal is not here i'll dump this on him :P
15:28:26 <adamw> #action kparal to resurrect the user switching criterion proposal now desktop team agreed to block on it. it sounds like KDE team supports blocking on it too, we may need to double check that
15:28:27 <Southern_Gentlem> user switching is hard even the non linux OS builders have issues with it
15:28:44 <Lailah> adamw: give me some time to read!  :-O
15:28:44 <adamw> i think we'd limit it to fairly clear-cut bugs
15:28:50 <adamw> Lailah: that was everything :)
15:28:55 <adamw> just wanted to get all the links out
15:29:05 <Lailah> Do I have time to read now?
15:30:57 * kparal looks up
15:31:01 <Lailah> adamw:  Finished reading. I have some questions.
15:31:41 <kparal> ah well
15:31:55 <kparal> I'll do that
15:34:29 <adamw> Lailah: fire away
15:35:21 <Lailah> First, I'm confused with all the we-could-waive-a-bug-but-maybe-not piece of writing.
15:35:37 <Lailah> Maybe I'm dumb, but I got lost in the middle.
15:37:46 <Lailah> The other one is about the wallpapers.  The basic criterion sounds confusing to me; the second version more than the first one.  Is there any way to rephrase it?
15:38:47 <adamw> Lailah: the we-could-waive-a-bug stuff is basically: when a blocker bug shows up really late, we have the option to not block on it
15:39:05 <Lailah> Oh. Good.
15:39:09 <Lailah> Understood.
15:39:20 <adamw> the proposal is about clarifying the mechanics of that, because the backgrounds bug showed up some parts where we're not entirely sure how it should work (it's a new thing)
15:39:35 <Lailah> Oh!
15:39:38 <Lailah> Okay.
15:39:48 <adamw> wallpapers: the current version just says "the new release's wallpaper can't be the same as either of the last two stable releases"
15:40:07 <Lailah> Looks good to me.
15:40:13 <Lailah> What's the issue with that?
15:40:43 <adamw> i don't really know?
15:40:50 <adamw> i wrote the existing version and sgallagh proposed changing it
15:40:55 <adamw> so he'd be a better person to ask :)
15:41:05 <adamw> he just said "I don't agree with the exact phrasing there.", but he didn't really say why not
15:41:26 <Lailah> AH.
15:41:36 <Lailah> Okay.
15:41:48 <sgallagh> I'm in the FESCo meeting right now and not free to discuss it, I'm afraid.
15:41:50 <adamw> he seems to be suggesting there may be some case where we could somehow use the same wallpaper but it could still be clear that it's a different thing, but i don't quite understand how that would work.
15:41:56 <adamw> sgallagh: np, we can follow up on list :)
15:42:20 <Lailah> adamw:  I don't understand that either...
15:42:25 <sgallagh> adamw: The example I gave on the mailing list was by including the release number in the desktop overlay
15:42:59 <adamw> i mean, if it has a version number on it and the version number is different, it's a different background
15:43:26 <adamw> though you have to consider whether that covers KDE as well
15:43:42 <adamw> but we're not discussing it right? :D
15:44:47 <Lailah> To me, if it has a different number but the image is the same, it's the same wallpaper.
15:45:07 <adamw> philosophy!
15:45:31 <adamw> ok, so, since sgallagh is busy we can follow up with that one on-list, i guess
15:45:35 <sgallagh> I am back now
15:45:42 <Lailah> Oh, good.
15:45:58 <sgallagh> My point is that the intent of that rule is "the user should never be confused about which release they are on". Is that fair to say?
15:46:29 <adamw> yeah, that's the basic idea.
15:46:49 <sgallagh> Which is why I rephrased it to be more general, because the wallpaper need not be the only way to accomplish that.
15:47:01 <adamw> but unless you have a way of doing overlays which is actually going to work for both kde and gnome...is it really worth changing it?
15:47:02 <sgallagh> And, in fact, if the user has changed their wallpaper, this function is now lost
15:47:11 <Lailah> But the wallpaper is the most obvious and outstanding.
15:47:19 <Lailah> It's the first thing you see when you log in.
15:47:31 <Southern_Gentlem> unless you upgrade
15:48:02 <sgallagh> adamw: Chicken or egg? If the policy requires that the wallpaper is done in a certain way, no one will implement a different way...
15:48:15 <sgallagh> Southern_Gentlem: The upgrade process doesn't change the wallpaper
15:48:28 <Southern_Gentlem> sgallagh, exactly
15:48:42 <adamw> sgallagh: i don't really think that follows, i mean, you know we change the criteria when appropriate. i'd be fine with changing it if we invent some neat overlay setup that is very clear
15:49:05 <Lailah> Well, yes, but since you upgrade the system on purpose, it's unlikely you won't know on which version you are after the upgrade.
15:49:40 <sgallagh> Lailah: Except you might not recall if you remembered to update it on this machine yet
15:49:52 <Southern_Gentlem> Lailah, you are giving the endusers too much credit
15:49:53 <sgallagh> (Yes, there are other ways to discover that information)
15:50:32 <Southern_Gentlem> but i have no problem if the beta and final backgrounds are the same
15:50:44 <Lailah> Southern_Gentlem:  I know they can be dumb, but you have to click or type the release version.
15:51:15 <Southern_Gentlem> Lailah,  there are reasons fpaste was created by the #fedora ops
15:51:22 <Lailah> Unless they forget in the meantime on which version they were before, I'm quite confident they'll remember on which version they are after the upgrade.
15:51:35 <sgallagh> My point is mainly that using the wallpapers for this purpose is one of the least-effective ways of achieving the desired result.
15:51:54 <sgallagh> So we should state the actual intent and then let the clever little ants build the colony.
15:52:08 <Southern_Gentlem> sgallagh,  i agree different wallpaper for each release
15:52:22 <Lailah> I thought we already had that...
15:52:32 <Lailah> Each release with its own wallpaper
15:52:56 <Southern_Gentlem> unless the design team proposes something else
15:53:07 <adamw> sgallagh: i'd say that phrasing is slightly off
15:53:11 <sgallagh> Southern_Gentlem: I just don't think that "the wallpaper must be different" is worth blocking on its own
15:53:17 <sgallagh> adamw: Which?
15:53:29 <adamw> sgallagh: it's not that when writing the criteria we wanted to require a way to differentiate between releases and we said HEY! wallpaper!
15:53:31 <adamw> that's not how it went
15:53:40 <adamw> what actually happened is that we wrote a wallpaper criterion
15:53:50 <adamw> which at first just required the wallpaper be done by beta or something like that
15:53:59 <adamw> then people complained it was too strict and it'd be fine to just have the wallpaper done by final
15:54:22 <adamw> but we *also* thought 'well, would it be okay if it just didn't change at all for alpha/beta?' and decided no, we at least want it to be somehow different from previous release
15:54:34 <Southern_Gentlem> yes
15:54:45 <adamw> but we've always been working in the context of "this is an artwork/wallpaper criterion"
15:54:53 <Southern_Gentlem> as long as it is different than either of the n-2 releases
15:55:45 <adamw> and sigh, we're running over time again!
15:55:51 <adamw> i'm gonna move on, we can follow up on the list
15:55:58 <adamw> #topic Test Day / community event status
15:56:05 <sgallagh> Personally, I think I'd rather we had a single well-known "Fedora Wallpaper" used as the default for all release and then the extras.
15:56:05 <adamw> sumantro: what's goin' on
15:56:44 <sumantro> adamw, I am supposed to send out the call for test days email
15:56:55 <sumantro> and kick off the process
15:57:33 <Southern_Gentlem> sgallagh,  no
15:57:46 <sumantro> will create tickets for tracking , test days and wait for dustymabe, if he wants to do a coreos test day
15:58:01 <Southern_Gentlem> i disagree that all releases need a different background
15:58:19 <sumantro> since coreos will release in a couple of weeks , if I m not wrong
15:58:38 <Southern_Gentlem> i have no issue with recycling old backgrounds if there is enough time lapse between releases
15:58:56 <adamw> #info sumantro will send out call for test days soon, and work with dustymabe to schedule a coreos test day
15:59:02 <adamw> sumantro: how about onboarding?
15:59:59 <sumantro> adamw this one got pushed for sometime for the test days and release cycle
16:00:06 <sumantro> but will be having one soon
16:00:09 <adamw> cool
16:00:16 <adamw> #info an onboarding event will also be scheduled soon
16:00:18 <sumantro> mid of this month
16:00:29 <adamw> ok, and with that we're over time, so i guess we'll have to come back again next week :)
16:00:31 <adamw> #topic Open floor
16:00:34 <adamw> any very urgent open floor business?
16:00:50 <Lailah> Well, I had two bugs...
16:01:07 <Lailah> But if you want to end the meeting I'll leave them for next time.
16:01:13 <adamw> can always mail the list about them, toop
16:01:37 <Lailah> ok
16:02:19 <adamw> thanks for coming, everyone!
16:02:35 <coremodule> thanks for hosting as always adamw
16:02:36 <Lailah> thanks adamw !
16:03:14 <adamw> #endmeeting