17:00:48 <pboy> #startmeeting fedora-server
17:00:48 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May  4 17:00:48 2022 UTC.
17:00:48 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:48 <zodbot> The chair is pboy. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
17:00:48 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:48 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-server'
17:00:57 <pboy> #topic Welcome / roll call
17:01:09 <pboy> Welcome to our Server WG meeting today!
17:01:12 <mowest> Hello, everyone.
17:01:22 <pboy> Same procedure as all fortnight.
17:01:32 <pboy> Please, everybody who is lurking, say either .hello2 or .hello <fasname>
17:01:40 <cooltshirtguy> .hello2
17:01:41 <zodbot> cooltshirtguy: Something blew up, please try again
17:01:42 <eseyman> .hello2 eseyman
17:01:42 <pboy> I’ll post the agenda in a few minutes.
17:01:44 <zodbot> cooltshirtguy: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
17:01:47 <zodbot> eseyman: Something blew up, please try again
17:01:48 <mowest> .hello mowest
17:01:50 <zodbot> eseyman: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
17:01:53 <zodbot> mowest: Something blew up, please try again
17:01:56 <zodbot> mowest: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
17:01:57 <cooltshirtguy> woohoo
17:02:13 <eseyman> this isn't going to go well, is it?
17:02:20 <pboy> The start is already a challenge
17:02:28 <eseyman> Anyway, Emmanuel Seyman here \o_
17:02:29 <cooltshirtguy> computers are hard
17:02:45 <pboy> eseyman: We see you. :-)
17:02:52 <mowest> Steve Daley, mowest here
17:03:13 <pboy> mowest: Welcome back after a hard time
17:03:21 <pboy> busy time
17:03:27 <mowest> Good to be here.
17:03:33 <cooltshirtguy> Jaosn Beard, cooltshirtguy here
17:03:54 <mowest> "Hard" or "Busy" both work :-)
17:04:25 <cooltshirtguy> i hear that...
17:04:35 <pboy> chair pboy eseyman mowest cooltshirtguy
17:04:45 <pboy> #chair pboy eseyman mowest cooltshirtguy
17:04:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: cooltshirtguy eseyman mowest pboy
17:04:59 <pboy> Just in case my connection dies
17:05:15 <pboy> we had some issues today here
17:05:29 <pboy> #topic Agenda
17:05:37 <pboy> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/report/Meeting
17:05:45 <pboy> #info 1. Follow up actions
17:05:52 <pboy> #info 2. Change proposal about withdrawal of BIOS boot for new installations in F37 (continuing)
17:05:59 <pboy> #info 3. Evaluation of our test efforts for F36
17:06:07 <pboy> #info 4. Planning for Fedora 37: Additional changes to discuss?
17:06:15 <pboy> #info 5. How to proceed with Cockpit File Sharing module
17:06:22 <pboy> #info 6. Open Floor
17:06:36 <pboy> any additional topic ?
17:06:45 <jwhimpel> .hello2
17:06:46 <zodbot> jwhimpel: jwhimpel 'John Himpel' <john@jlhimpel.net>
17:06:57 <eseyman> I'm good with that agenda
17:06:58 <pboy> you may get an overview of our ongoing and outstanding tasks at
17:07:12 <pboy> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/boards/Works%20in%20progress
17:07:18 <pboy> Hi John!
17:07:39 <jwhimpel> Good afternoon (here)
17:07:50 <pboy> I see no additional request
17:07:59 <pboy> #topic 1. Follow up actions
17:08:22 <pboy> #info ONGOING: Created Change proposal to add Server VM
17:08:31 <pboy> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Supplement-server-by-kvm-vm-image
17:08:41 <pboy> #info DONE: Supplement to our Product requirements Document (PRD)
17:08:49 <pboy> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/server-working-group/docs/product-requirements-document/
17:08:59 <pboy> #info DONE and ONGOING: Voting about new members (open until tomorrow, Thursday, 05:00 UTC)
17:09:21 <pboy> For those who missed to vote until now:
17:09:31 <pboy> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/67
17:09:39 <pboy> #info DONE: Withdrawal of nb and mhoungbo from member list.
17:10:00 <pboy> That was it regaring announcements
17:10:09 <eseyman> I can't vote on that issue, right?
17:11:24 <pboy> Any member can vote, but we need positiv  votes of at least 3 members already approved and no objection by one approved member AND the majority of all members
17:11:48 <pboy> majority of all votes
17:12:14 <pboy> It's a bit complicated.
17:12:30 <eseyman> that means no
17:13:01 <pboy> Just another announcement: I'm writing a blog post about our WG over the last year.
17:13:12 <mowest> @eseyman that's how I took it, since we are being voted on to join as members.
17:13:28 <pboy> I try to explain there the voting rules a bit.
17:13:33 <mowest> Or to be accepted as members of the Server WG
17:13:42 <pboy> eseyman: what do you mean with no?
17:14:09 <eseyman> I cannot vote on the issue
17:14:26 <pboy> Yes, you can.
17:14:38 <eseyman> ah
17:14:53 <pboy> We just need in any case the positiv voting of already approved members
17:15:05 <pboy> as just explained.
17:15:18 <pboy> (or tried to explain)
17:15:53 <mowest> Ok, so we are considered "members" but not "approved members" so we can vote on our own election to be "approved members"?
17:16:10 * eseyman has voted
17:16:27 <eseyman> mowest: worst case scenario, our votes will count for nothing
17:16:28 <pboy> The first chancelor of Germay voted for himself, too
17:16:40 <pboy> So you can anyway. :-)
17:17:22 <pboy> eseyman: wrong, if the majority on votes is negativ, the result is not approved.
17:17:41 <cooltshirtguy> clear as mud
17:17:48 <pboy> We need 2 majorities: of the approved members and of all members
17:18:17 <pboy> With the right glasses you can see through mud. :-)
17:18:30 <cooltshirtguy> very true
17:18:43 <mowest> Ok, I voted for everyone including myself, but I'm excited about all the work that cooltshirtguy, eseyman, and dcavalca have done for Fedora Server WG. :-)
17:18:57 <pboy> We have a page "governance" on our WG wiki pages that describes the procedure.
17:19:43 <pboy> OK. I think the outcome of the voting is as clear as it ever can be.
17:19:55 <pboy> at least until now
17:20:10 <cooltshirtguy> we're good for now
17:20:25 <pboy> Well, anything else for topic 1?  Did I miss an item?
17:20:49 <pboy> #topic 2. Change proposal about withdrawal of BIOS boot for new installations in F37 (continuing)
17:20:56 <pboy> There is currently no ticket for this.
17:21:04 <pboy> The original change proposal has been rejected, as expected. I think the discussion will go on, because the change was due to lack of maintenance resources.
17:21:14 <pboy> The question is whether we already want to take action.
17:21:31 <pboy> As an example,  for server MBR partitioning is the default.  Should we switch to GPT now? Or do we take some more time?
17:22:01 <pboy> Should we wait for the final outcome of the topic?
17:22:03 <mowest> I'm curious of how much maintenance is needed if the legacy boot is working, and no new hardware is coming out with legacy boot BIOS's?
17:22:48 <cooltshirtguy> I thnk intel quit doing bios boot a year ago or so
17:22:57 <pboy> Well, the issue is, there is a lot hardware in use that needs bios boot.
17:23:14 <cooltshirtguy> I agree, i think its too soon
17:23:19 <mowest> I love the idea of freeing up people's time, but I weigh that against our mission of wanting to use Fedora as a vehicle to spread opensource to all countries and communities.
17:23:36 <pboy> And there are data centers that insist on bios boot because of there maintenance infrastructure
17:23:47 <pboy> At least currently.
17:24:46 <pboy> mowest: Yes, it is a kind of linux branding to be able to function on older hardware.
17:25:51 <pboy> I interpret the silence, let's wait and see for now.
17:26:09 <mowest> Through my blog, I got an email from someone in India who said that the hardware that he has access too and can afford is not capable of running Fedora Workstation smoothly, which I can understand because of the Gnome requirements, but what about being able to run Fedora Server or Fedora with a window manager instead, it would be nice if that was still an option for other countries.
17:26:45 <pboy> mowest:  +1
17:26:56 <mowest> I checked and two out of the four machines that I run in my home lab are BIOS boot only.
17:27:29 <pboy> My  position is: we need bios boot for at least the next 5-8 years
17:27:42 <mowest> Now, this doesn't bother me too much, I have the hardware to covert one of the machines to UEFI boot, and the other I can run Debian on it for years to come, I'm sure.
17:27:43 <cooltshirtguy> I agree with wiating
17:27:47 <cooltshirtguy> *waiting
17:28:20 <pboy> mowest: we want you to keep Fedora !
17:28:55 <jwhimpel> According to Stewart Smith (I think of Amazon), nerly all EC2 instances will boot by default with legacy-bios.  All aarch64 instances are UEFI.  They do not plan to migrate users.
17:28:56 <pboy> OK. We watch the discussion and decide as soon as more information is available
17:29:08 <pboy> #topic 3.  Evaluation of our test efforts for F36
17:29:17 <pboy> There is no issue for that yet.
17:29:29 <pboy> Any ideas about it?
17:29:37 <pboy> The floor ist open
17:30:18 <mowest> What is keeping us in Beta right now?
17:30:36 <mowest> Is is something that impacts Server?'
17:30:38 <jwhimpel> I think we did better for this release, but the real answer will come after it goes G/A.
17:31:07 <jwhimpel> mowest: primarily desktop app issues
17:31:22 <pboy> mowest:  nothing about server, fortunately. All about Workstation or Workstation solftware as far  as I know
17:31:46 <pboy> jwhimpel: yes, I too think we did better.
17:32:35 <eseyman> FWIW, upgrade from F35 to F36Beta went without a hitch
17:32:49 <pboy> I found some nice test day pages for various editions, where they listed the manual tests.
17:32:59 <jwhimpel> It would be better if the RC download URL was included in the requests for beta testing.
17:32:59 <mowest> I haven't been home much in the last month, so I haven't upgraded to F36 on my home lab servers yet, so I haven't done any testing. I probably won't upgrade my Fedora Workstation until final because I need that machine running for sure.
17:33:03 <pboy> Unfortunately, I don't find them anymore.
17:33:56 <pboy> mowest: current rc4 should be fine for your server. I had no issues with rc3
17:34:50 <mowest> Yes, I will have to give it a try soon on my servers.
17:36:25 <pboy> Hm, I'm still looking for these nice pages.
17:36:50 <pboy> But without luck.
17:37:34 <pboy> I suppose we agree: We did better but there is still room for improvement?
17:37:52 <eseyman> yes to that
17:37:56 <mowest> Aren't the download links here https://getfedora.org/en/server/download/
17:38:21 <pboy> I think it is a good idea to initialize a test day or test week as some other editions /spins are doing?
17:39:03 <pboy> mowest: that's the download, I'm looking for the test plan and result pages.
17:39:17 <eseyman> yes again but we need a dedicated test plan to do that
17:39:18 <jwhimpel> mowest: That page is up-to-date for only G/A releases
17:39:32 <pboy> eseyman:  ++1
17:40:02 <jwhimpel> I was hopeful that for beta's and for RC's, that the download URL was more visible somewhere.
17:40:29 <mowest> @pboy is this it? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Testcase_upgrade_dnf_current_server
17:40:59 <pboy> jwhimpel: they were buried in mails about test results.
17:41:30 <pboy> We should make them available nest round in our own ticket for easy access.
17:42:38 <pboy> mowest: no. it is something from 2017, the switch from yum to dnf ?
17:43:08 <mowest> Okay, before my time :-)
17:43:33 <pboy> proposed we did better with test for release 36 and will go for a test week for fedora 37
17:43:52 <pboy> to improve it further
17:44:06 <pboy> any objection?
17:44:20 <cooltshirtguy> nope
17:44:34 <x3mboy> Hello guys
17:44:35 <x3mboy> .hello2
17:44:36 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com>
17:45:08 <pboy> hi x3mboy. welcome (back after a long time)
17:45:25 <eseyman> zodbot is back too!
17:45:34 <pboy> #agreed we did better with test for release 36 and will go for a test week for fedora 37 to improve testing further
17:45:55 <pboy> #toppic 4. Planning for Fedora 37: Additional changes to discuss?
17:46:03 <pboy> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/79
17:46:19 <pboy> If I remember correctly, cooltshirtguy is considering to work on automatic update notification?
17:46:40 <pboy> There is an open bug / RFE in bugzilla, we postponed to F37: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2054625
17:47:03 <pboy> Floor is open
17:47:46 <x3mboy> I have a question
17:47:53 <pboy> go on
17:48:02 <x3mboy> Are Server docs on pagure or GitLab?
17:48:15 <pboy> on pagure
17:49:09 <x3mboy> Are you considering to  move to GitLab?
17:49:27 <pboy> We didn't discuss that so far.
17:50:06 <pboy> I don't know, how long pagure will keep functional.
17:50:16 <x3mboy> I'm currently working with GitLab for the marketing team and pagure for the i3 Spin
17:50:43 <cooltshirtguy> it seems that the RFE and issue 79 are 2 different things. Am i correct?
17:51:29 <pboy> cooltshirtguy: #79 is a superset
17:52:13 <pboy> the bug/rfe is part of out work on F37, or not. our decision.
17:52:25 <pboy> out -> our
17:52:27 <x3mboy> I would suggest migrating everything to GitLab
17:52:47 <x3mboy> Maybe should I open a tickeet in pagure to receive feedback?
17:52:54 <cooltshirtguy> ok
17:53:23 <pboy> +x3mboy may be we have too. But currently we have more urgent tasks to do, I think.
17:53:43 <mowest> Who is responsible to making the changes to the included software, on the installation media? I agree with most of the mentions of what should be on the installation media, but I don't know who pushes the buttons to make that happen.
17:54:13 <pboy> x3mboy: But yes, we should open a ticket to keep it in mind
17:54:28 <x3mboy> That should be the kickstart team
17:54:43 <x3mboy> https://pagure.io/fedora-kickstarts
17:54:43 <pboy> mowest: It's our decision. For some changes we need a change proposal.
17:54:45 <x3mboy> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-kickstarts
17:55:40 <pboy> We as server WG decide and start a change proposal for bigger changes. And we have to do the work.
17:56:29 <pboy> E.G. if we want to modify the partition table, we have to make the modification inthe server kickstart file and issue a PR to releng.
17:57:52 <cooltshirtguy> is that documentend any where?
17:58:03 <pboy> The same way I had to make a kickstart file for the server VM and a PR for the kickstart file repository
17:58:28 <mowest> I imagine that it is always a balance between size of media verses what packages provide the best experience "out of the box". With that in mind, I'm not sure about zsh as being included. I kind of see that more as a preference than "required package" on the install media. I prefer "vim" but since Fedora as a Project has settled on "nano" that should be the editor that is on the default media.
17:58:34 <pboy> cooltshirtguy: Yes it is, "anywhere". I currently dont not the url
17:59:27 <cooltshirtguy> ok
17:59:54 <x3mboy> I  agree with mowest in the zsh thing
17:59:55 <pboy> mowest: yes, specifically the size. we should keep it managable for regions with week IN connection
18:00:19 <x3mboy> And also on the nano. I think that nano is on @core because it's the default
18:00:23 <cooltshirtguy> Zsh has become popular. apple swithed to zsh on the mac a couple of versions ago
18:01:20 <x3mboy> cooltshirtguy: popular doesn't mean necessary, bash is needed so, a shell is already included, no need to add extra shells
18:01:39 <pboy> Regarding the editor: the Fedora default is nano, so it is included. The majority of us die vote for vim, so it is our decision to include it as well.
18:02:15 <pboy> Regarding the shells: We have to check the effect on media size.
18:02:39 <cooltshirtguy> understood. personally i use zsh on everything.
18:02:48 <mowest> So we have vim on the install media? How can it be installed during the installation process?
18:02:54 <pboy> Or will we leave off some older software no longer needed on install media (but of course in repo).
18:03:05 <pboy> mowest: yes!
18:03:20 <cooltshirtguy> list it in the kickstart file under packages. unless that's changed
18:03:51 <pboy> mowest: you can just dnf .. it. and you shoult deinstall nano-default-editro or so.
18:03:51 <cooltshirtguy> I havent kickstarted a server in a while.
18:04:11 <pboy> mowest:  Look into our install documentation for details. :-) :-)
18:04:39 <pboy> Folks, time is up!
18:05:03 <mowest> Wow, time flies when I join these.
18:05:08 <eseyman> I was going to say that this seems a good topic for the list more than the meeting
18:05:14 <pboy> Suggestion: We continue this topic next meeting?
18:05:33 <pboy> eseyman +1
18:05:57 <pboy> Let's start a thread on mailing list.
18:06:02 <eseyman> JFTR, I am writing an Ansible playbook to do the actions described in https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/latest/install-guide/advanced/Network_based_Installations/
18:06:39 <eseyman> I found a few mistakes in the documentation and submitted a PR which has been merged
18:06:44 <pboy> eseyman: I'm writing a doku about that. Let's coordinate.
18:07:10 <eseyman> pboy: not sure what a doku is but I would be glad to
18:07:32 <eseyman> FYI: https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/install-guide/pull-request/122
18:07:34 <pboy> eseyman: sorry, doku = Dokumentation (German) = documentation
18:08:05 <pboy> eseyman: I'll have a look into it.
18:08:42 <mowest> Found the Kickstart installation instructions :-)
18:08:47 <pboy> Well proposed  agreed: Continue topic 4 on mailing list
18:08:57 <pboy> any objection?
18:09:02 <mowest> +1
18:09:05 <cooltshirtguy> +1
18:09:25 <pboy> #agreed We continue topic 4 on mailing list
18:09:46 <pboy> So, we must close now, I think
18:09:54 <mowest> +1
18:10:02 <pboy> And I have the next meeting in 20 minutes with the docs group
18:10:33 <x3mboy> +1
18:10:40 <pboy> x3mboy: I have a question, I'll write a mail. Is it OK?
18:10:48 <x3mboy> Sure
18:10:54 <x3mboy> To the fedora alias
18:11:00 <x3mboy> x3mboy@fp.o
18:11:12 <pboy> x3mboy: got it
18:11:32 <pboy> See you all in 14 days again and on mailing list.
18:11:36 <pboy> bye bye
18:11:45 <pboy> #endmeeting