#meeting:fedoraproject.org log

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:03:42

!startmeeting fedora-server

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

18:03:42

Meeting started at 2024-02-21 18:03:42 UTC

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

18:03:42

The Meeting name is 'fedora-server'

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

18:04:04

Let's go, then!

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:04:06

INFO EPEL meeting is on Fedora Meeting 1 today!Q

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:04:39

@nirik and hopefully sort of on Server

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:04:55

of course!

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:05:04

fedora server all around

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:05:21

OK. Welcome to our Matrix Meeting, a little adventure today.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:05:30

!topic Welcome / roll call

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:05:41

Welcome to our Server WG meeting today! „Same procedure as every year“ We'll give a few minutes for folks to show up

<@jwhimpel:matrix.org>

18:05:49

John Himpel here

<@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org>

18:05:57

!hi

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

18:06:01

Hello, folks

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:06:08

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:06:09

Tomáš Hrčka (humaton) - he / him / his

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:06:13

No Fedora Accounts users have the @cooltshirtguy:matrix.org Matrix Account defined

<@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org>

18:06:19

ahh

<@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org>

18:06:23

I see. hello

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:06:43

you can do it with fas as param I think

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:07:11

OK, we meet the Quorum

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:07:30

Welcome everybody. I post the Agenda now

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:07:39

!topic Agenda

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:07:51

!info Follow-up actions & announcements !info Review installation media !info Revisiting Server installation media naming convention !info LVM2 configuration & ARM SBC installation !info Testing F40 !info Our "story" for F40 !info Open Floor

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:08:00

Peter Boy: according https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/server-working-group/ the server wg meeting is supposed to be 1700, which was an hour ago

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:08:33

No, it is 18:00 UTC for years now.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:08:47

At summer time it is 17:00 UTC

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:09:02

by definition utc doesn't have summer time

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:09:23

Yeah, but we keept the local time the same that way

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

18:09:59

We changed our meeting time a while back to be 17000 in summer and 1800 in winter (or the other way around, I can never remember)

<@dherrera:fedora.im>

18:10:07

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:10:08

Diego Herrera (dherrera) - he / him / his

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:10:21

But thanks for the info, we have to update ourt WG page, too.

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:10:26

and this is why pinning to utc is better than pinning to a local time that shifts

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:10:40

we went through the same confusion picking the new epel meeting time

<@carlwgeorge:matrix.org>

18:10:58

it used to be pinned to us/eastern

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:11:56

I think we had good experience to switch UTC back and forth with summer time

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:12:10

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

18:12:13

Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:12:18

Nevertheless, any coment about agenda!

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:12:56

OK, lets start

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:13:04

!topic 1. Follow-up actions & announcements

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:13:24

At the moment, there is nothing new here. Just as an info, I'm trying to get together a CfP about Server at DevCon in June this year. But I'm still at the beginning and don't know if I get something interesting together. Would someone else like to join DefCon? So we can work together to get something up? It's in Brno, Czech.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:13:58

I am located in CZ and most probably will show up

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:14:07

And I wanted to contact jednorozec about that, and now he is here :_)

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:14:23

now I have this meeting in my calendar ;)

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:15:01

Good. I want to ask you about a CfP about Server, systemd-container, etc, as we discussed at Fosdem.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:15:37

Any comment here?

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:16:01

Ok, lets go on

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:16:09

!topic 2. Review installation media

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:16:10

hmm, I need to think about it.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:16:23

!link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/88

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:16:33

oh this topic

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:16:40

We are trying here for more then 2 years for now without a lot or results. At Fosdem I met Tomáš, who is very experienced in release engineering. He specializes in it and he offered to help us. I explained our dilemma to him. And now I'm happy and excited to hear about his findings about our problem.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:17:07

So Tomas, it is yours :-)

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:17:13

Yeah

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:17:37

I didnt get to do much yet, but I have reviewed the tickets and what you explained in discussions

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:18:25

I think that first thing to do is to try to sync the content on install media dvd/net installs

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:18:34

Yes!

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:18:51

And to checj the groth of the distribution file

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:19:00

yup

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:19:51

Well, I'm very interested to learn about this. Someone else? It's quite technical.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:20:09

I need to look in depth into how server media are build and prepare koji task or script for people to respin server media with changes

<@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org>

18:20:30

I'm interested

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:20:45

cooltshirtguy ++1

<@jwhimpel:matrix.org>

18:20:54

I’d like to learn.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:21:07

jwhimpel ++1

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:21:18

ok, so let me create blogpost that explains server compose

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:21:32

and we can discuss technical details next meeting?

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:21:42

I might be able to show you some scratch builds

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:21:47

OK, blogpost, where?

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:21:48

but no promissies about that

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:22:24

probably on my blog https://blog.radioypsilon.eu/blog/pungi/

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:22:38

A question is, if we schedule a video meeting? We can show detailed information there

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:22:45

I will let you know, does the WG has a list? I can post it there...

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:23:02

sure I am open so video.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:23:08

yes, we have server@lists.fedoraproject.org

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:23:58

Ok. So we would proceed as follows:

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:24:06

Ok, let me put together more detailed post about the server compose and we can discuss it

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:24:25

jednorozec creates a blog post and informs us on server list

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:24:54

We discuss then first on server list and agree upon a video meeting for greater details!

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:25:10

Would that be OK?

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:25:18

ack

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:25:38

If everything goes well we can aim at 41 as self contained change

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:25:40

jwhinmpel?

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:25:46

coolshirtguy?

<@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org>

18:25:51

sounds good

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:26:08

OK then:

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:27:10

!action jednorozec creates a blogpost with details and informs server list when ready. Then we first discuss on list and then schedule a video conference.

<@jwhimpel:matrix.org>

18:27:33

Sorry, had to process higher interrupt. Plan sounds good to me.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:28:27

OK, thanks a lot jednorozec Im the first time optimistic with that topic that hangs above our heads for a long time!

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:29:35

And regarding DevCon, I wrote the wrong subject: I think about "modern Server, Package based, Anaconda and Flexibility".

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:29:42

Actually bit of My bad that i didnt join you earlier :)

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:30:07

I so happy at the moment :-)

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:30:25

Well, lets proceed.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:30:35

!topic 3. Revisiting Server installation media naming convention

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:30:43

#link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/126 <https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/126

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:30:54

irst, we have to find a better name as DVD. current ideas full or local or ??? Second is to find a consistent order of the naming parts, eg. Name - release - version - arch - filetype

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:31:05

curently we switch to different ordering for iso, VM, SBC imange, Checksums

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:31:26

For F40 it may to be too late. Releng won't be happy to make such a change a short time befor new release. But we should try to get in into rawhide now.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:31:28

naming things is hard.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:32:03

changing names is a lot more work than you might think... compose tooling, websites changes, qa changes, sync scripts... but of course it's possible.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:32:34

yup renaming artifacts is not simple but

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:32:44

Yeah, and if get it for F42, it OK, too. But DVD is really outdated.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:32:44

calling medium DVD in 2024 is weird

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:32:51

perhaps just dropping dvd would be the best option?

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:32:57

we may have a whole generation who does not know what it is :)

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:32:58

yeah, dvd is odd for sure now a days

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

18:34:01

PXE should probably be a more important target than DVD

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:34:19

Well, just dropping may be strange. Because all other files have this element.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:34:20

hmm Fedora-Server-arch-* is much better

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:34:36

and Fedora-Server-net-install

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:34:53

hum I checked just iso's

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:36:13

ahh ok

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:36:18

We work almost exclusively with CLI. A systematic naming convention makes a lot of typing easier,

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:36:36

Fedora-Server-$arch-$version seems reasonable to me..

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:36:47

and a better overview in dir listings

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:36:49

now I see the inconsistency all images are named differently for server

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:37:01

yes.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:37:18

And the checksum files have the same name for different files.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:37:24

but yeah, you still need to tell the main image apart from the netinstall iso, etc.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:37:28

Overwriting each other when downloading.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:37:51

we tried to change it with 39 but as nirik mentioned renaming stuff is not that simple

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:37:55

it broke things

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:38:29

Well, there is no hurry, I think. There are much more important things

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:38:56

My idea is, to make a proposal ready to go and the see, in which timeframe to get it done.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:39:20

We have postponed it so long ...

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:40:06

Well, how to proceed here?

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:40:22

For the media rename

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:40:39

We need to do this as a change so everyone is aware about it

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:40:49

Yes, I think full would include USB and pxe

<@jwhimpel:matrix.org>

18:40:58

Does anyone how many different server images are actually produced? Along with current names?

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:41:22

well, there's not a pxe image right? just a kernel and initramfs...

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:41:26

or do you mean the netinstall?

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:42:04

no, the image could be used for a local installation as well as setup a pxe server

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:42:52

But probably you would better use netinstall for pxe

<@jwhimpel:matrix.org>

18:43:09

We have “dvd” image and a “net” image. Are there others? libvirt used to have an image, but I haven’t see one generated in a while.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:43:33

It is generaged as KVM

<@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org>

18:43:50

qcow2 image?

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:43:56

and we have the SBC image, which a diffefrent name again

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:44:07

yup kvm is there https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/branched/Fedora-40-20240221.n.0/compose/Server/x86_64/images/

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:44:48

yeah, we have always called that the netinstall image... I don't know if there's a better name

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:45:19

Well, the time is running.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:45:23

hm this one does not has the dvd in name https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/branched/Fedora-40-20240221.n.0/compose/Server/aarch64/images/

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:45:28

is that a special image?

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:46:04

so I think we should come up with change proposal propose new names and see if we get any feedback on it

<@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org>

18:46:17

isnt that sbc image?

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:46:28

ahh that makes sense

<@jwhimpel:matrix.org>

18:47:15

The libvirt one is either a “raw” or “qcow2” image. I forget which one it is.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:47:28

it's qcow2 I am pretty sure.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:47:42

Proposal: Let's further discuss on mailing list and aim to make a final decision in 4 weeks latest. And then it is up to releng to find a workable timeframe. There is no urgency.

<@humaton:fedora.im>

18:47:44

it here https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/branched/Fedora-40-20240221.n.0/compose/Server/x86_64/images/

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:48:27

Yes, it would be progress to have Fedora-Server-40-KVM :-)

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:49:13

I think we agree about the proposal?

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

18:49:53

Yes, that sounds like a good idea

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:49:57

!agreed We further discuss naming convention on mailing list and aim to make a final decision in 4 weeks latest. And then it is up to releng to find a workable timeframe. There is no urgency.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:50:12

!topic 4. LVM2 default configuration change

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:50:23

!link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2258764

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:50:40

It's currently a bit difficult.

<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>

18:51:09

I didn't get a chance to try and ping anyone, but I saw adamw was... ?

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:51:12

It is difficult to explain auf ARM SIB that there is a change in the LVM default configuration

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:52:07

So we have to adjust the images produce the same installation as our iso files do. Anaconda team works on that, at least the first part.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:52:41

The fist part is, to remove the device file from the image, because it is specific for the target system.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:53:00

The secon part is to cfreate a suitable devices file at first boot.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:53:10

No idea how to do that.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:53:42

And then we have to adjust the arm-installer-script to the new way LVM works.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:54:21

And ARM SIG will back to the way it was up to F38. But that is a no go in my opinion.

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

18:54:27

Do we have open bugs in the subject? Every time I'm pointed to a bugzilla bug, it is in a closed state

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:56:31

Yes, is is currently https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2247872

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:57:30

If you scroll down, I tried hard to explain, but I'm on the limit of my english skills

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

18:58:37

Okay, I'm going to track that bug

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:59:18

Well, time is up. I switch to open floor.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:59:31

!topic 7. Open Floor

<@pboy:fedora.im>

18:59:40

Anyhing here?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:59:53

hey

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:59:54

yeah

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

18:59:55

one thing

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:00:47

Just an FYI for everyone, the intent of the Fedora Cloud WG is to shut down ImageFactory for the F41 cycle, and we're replacing that with KIWI for our images in F40 cycle

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

19:01:23

yes, I flagged that as one of the F40 changes we should watch

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:01:26

if Server WG is interested in using KIWI for their non-ISO images for F41, please let me know and we'll work that out

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:01:42

Yes, What says releng about it?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:02:11

well, at this point, I think I'm waiting on the Koji upgrade so that we can start rolling it out :)

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:02:37

well that and the pungi PR to enable support for it in composes

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:02:48

!link https://pagure.io/pungi/pull-request/1720

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:03:26

OK, I would like to stick as close as possible to the way Fedora / releng is doing it. ImageFactory is a pain ... But it works.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:04:27

Fedora Cloud is more or less the main "maintainer" (ish?) of ImageFactory, and we'll be discontinuing that during F41 cycle

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:05:01

after that, your choices are Lorax, KIWI, or OSBuild (depending on what is supported in pungi and what artifacts are supported by the different tools)

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:05:28

Well, there are a lot of images created with ImageFactory. It would be hard to switch all together at once?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:05:51

the container images and the cloud images are switching in F40

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:06:23

for F41, SIGs that produce non-ISO images (ARM disk images and VM disk images mainly) will need to switch away

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:06:43

Fedora Cloud will be reaching out to every stakeholder when the time comes

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:07:07

ImageFactory is difficult, everything else is probably better. What does Releng recommend? Do we want to support all alternatives at the same time?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:07:33

we'll see once we get closer to that time

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:07:56

I'm just giving a heads-up for y'all

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:08:36

Yes thanks! I wanted to discuss about that at Fosdem with you. But time was short, unfortunately.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:08:50

yeah, alas there's never enough time :)

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

19:09:28

I believe we've overstepped our endtime

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:09:31

OK. I'll take this as a topic on one of our next meetings.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:09:42

YES, we have to close now.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:09:55

It was an exciting meeting today !!!!!

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:10:08

Meet you in 2 weeks again.

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:10:16

Bye bye

<@eseyman:fedora.im>

19:10:20

See you in 14 days, people

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:10:25

and thanks for coming

<@pboy:fedora.im>

19:10:43

!endmeeting