2024-02-21 18:03:42 <@pboy:fedora.im> !startmeeting fedora-server
2024-02-21 18:03:42 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-02-21 18:03:42 UTC
2024-02-21 18:03:42 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fedora-server'
2024-02-21 18:04:04 <@eseyman:fedora.im> Let's go, then!
2024-02-21 18:04:06 <@pboy:fedora.im> INFO EPEL meeting is on Fedora Meeting 1 today!Q
2024-02-21 18:04:39 <@pboy:fedora.im> @nirik and hopefully sort of on Server
2024-02-21 18:04:55 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> of course!
2024-02-21 18:05:04 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> fedora server all around
2024-02-21 18:05:21 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK. Welcome to our  Matrix Meeting, a little adventure today.
2024-02-21 18:05:30 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic Welcome / roll call
2024-02-21 18:05:41 <@pboy:fedora.im> Welcome to our Server WG meeting today!
„Same procedure as every year“ We'll give a few minutes for folks to show up
2024-02-21 18:05:49 <@jwhimpel:matrix.org> John Himpel here
2024-02-21 18:05:57 <@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org> !hi
2024-02-21 18:06:01 <@eseyman:fedora.im> Hello, folks
2024-02-21 18:06:08 <@humaton:fedora.im> !hi
2024-02-21 18:06:09 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Tomáš Hrčka (humaton) - he / him / his
2024-02-21 18:06:13 <@zodbot:fedora.im> No Fedora Accounts users have the @cooltshirtguy:matrix.org Matrix Account defined
2024-02-21 18:06:19 <@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org> ahh
2024-02-21 18:06:23 <@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org> I see. hello
2024-02-21 18:06:43 <@humaton:fedora.im> you can do it with fas as param I think
2024-02-21 18:07:11 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, we meet the Quorum
2024-02-21 18:07:30 <@pboy:fedora.im> Welcome everybody. I post the Agenda now
2024-02-21 18:07:39 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic Agenda
2024-02-21 18:07:51 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  Follow-up actions & announcements
!info  Review installation media
!info  Revisiting Server installation media naming convention
!info  LVM2 configuration & ARM SBC installation
!info  Testing F40
!info  Our "story" for F40
!info  Open Floor
2024-02-21 18:08:00 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> Peter Boy: according https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/server-working-group/ the server wg meeting is supposed to be 1700, which was an hour ago
2024-02-21 18:08:33 <@pboy:fedora.im> No, it is 18:00 UTC for years now.
2024-02-21 18:08:47 <@pboy:fedora.im> At summer time it is 17:00 UTC
2024-02-21 18:09:02 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> by definition utc doesn't have summer time
2024-02-21 18:09:23 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yeah, but we keept the local time the same that way
2024-02-21 18:09:59 <@eseyman:fedora.im> We changed our meeting time a while back to be 17000 in summer and 1800 in winter (or the other way around, I can never remember)
2024-02-21 18:10:07 <@dherrera:fedora.im> !hi
2024-02-21 18:10:08 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Diego Herrera (dherrera) - he / him / his
2024-02-21 18:10:21 <@pboy:fedora.im> But thanks for the info, we have to update ourt WG page, too.
2024-02-21 18:10:26 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> and this is why pinning to utc is better than pinning to a local time that shifts
2024-02-21 18:10:40 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> we went through the same confusion picking the new epel meeting time
2024-02-21 18:10:58 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> it used to be pinned to us/eastern
2024-02-21 18:11:56 <@pboy:fedora.im> I think we had good experience to switch UTC back and forth with summer time
2024-02-21 18:12:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-02-21 18:12:13 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-02-21 18:12:18 <@pboy:fedora.im> Nevertheless, any coment about agenda!
2024-02-21 18:12:56 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, lets start
2024-02-21 18:13:04 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 1. Follow-up actions & announcements
2024-02-21 18:13:24 <@pboy:fedora.im> At the moment, there is nothing new here. Just as an info, I'm trying to get together a CfP  about Server at DevCon in June this year. But I'm still at the beginning and don't know if I get something interesting together. Would someone else like to join DefCon? So we can work together to get something up? It's in Brno, Czech.
2024-02-21 18:13:58 <@humaton:fedora.im> I am located in CZ and most probably will show up
2024-02-21 18:14:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> And I wanted to contact jednorozec about that, and now he is here  :_) 
2024-02-21 18:14:23 <@humaton:fedora.im> now I have this meeting in my calendar ;)
2024-02-21 18:15:01 <@pboy:fedora.im> Good. I want to ask you about a CfP about Server, systemd-container, etc, as we discussed at Fosdem.
2024-02-21 18:15:37 <@pboy:fedora.im> Any comment here?
2024-02-21 18:16:01 <@pboy:fedora.im> Ok, lets go on
2024-02-21 18:16:09 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 2. Review installation media
2024-02-21 18:16:10 <@humaton:fedora.im> hmm, I need to think about it. 
2024-02-21 18:16:23 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/88
2024-02-21 18:16:33 <@humaton:fedora.im> oh this topic
2024-02-21 18:16:40 <@pboy:fedora.im> We are trying here for more then 2 years for now without a lot or results.
At Fosdem I met Tomáš, who is very experienced in release engineering. He specializes in it and he offered to help us. I explained our dilemma to him.  And now I'm happy and excited to hear about his findings about our problem.
2024-02-21 18:17:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> So Tomas, it is yours  :-)
2024-02-21 18:17:13 <@humaton:fedora.im> Yeah
2024-02-21 18:17:37 <@humaton:fedora.im> I didnt get to do much yet, but I have reviewed the tickets and what you explained in discussions
2024-02-21 18:18:25 <@humaton:fedora.im> I think that first thing to do is to try to sync the content on install media dvd/net installs
2024-02-21 18:18:34 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yes!
2024-02-21 18:18:51 <@pboy:fedora.im> And to checj the groth of the distribution file
2024-02-21 18:19:00 <@humaton:fedora.im> yup
2024-02-21 18:19:51 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, I'm very interested to learn about this. Someone else? It's quite technical.
2024-02-21 18:20:09 <@humaton:fedora.im> I need to look in depth into how server media are build and prepare koji task or script for people to respin server media with changes
2024-02-21 18:20:30 <@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org> I'm interested
2024-02-21 18:20:45 <@pboy:fedora.im> cooltshirtguy ++1
2024-02-21 18:20:54 <@jwhimpel:matrix.org> I’d like to learn.
2024-02-21 18:21:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> jwhimpel ++1
2024-02-21 18:21:18 <@humaton:fedora.im> ok, so let me create blogpost that explains server compose 
2024-02-21 18:21:32 <@humaton:fedora.im> and we can discuss technical details next meeting?
2024-02-21 18:21:42 <@humaton:fedora.im> I might be able to show you some scratch builds
2024-02-21 18:21:47 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, blogpost, where? 
2024-02-21 18:21:48 <@humaton:fedora.im> but no promissies about that
2024-02-21 18:22:24 <@humaton:fedora.im> probably on my blog https://blog.radioypsilon.eu/blog/pungi/
2024-02-21 18:22:38 <@pboy:fedora.im> A question is, if we schedule a video meeting? We can show detailed information there
2024-02-21 18:22:45 <@humaton:fedora.im> I will let you know, does the WG has a list? I can post it there...
2024-02-21 18:23:02 <@humaton:fedora.im> sure I am open so video. 
2024-02-21 18:23:08 <@pboy:fedora.im> yes, we have server@lists.fedoraproject.org
2024-02-21 18:23:58 <@pboy:fedora.im> Ok. So we would proceed as follows:
2024-02-21 18:24:06 <@humaton:fedora.im> Ok, let me put together more detailed post about the server compose and we can discuss it 
2024-02-21 18:24:25 <@pboy:fedora.im> jednorozec creates a blog post and informs us on server list
2024-02-21 18:24:54 <@pboy:fedora.im> We discuss then first on server list and agree upon a video meeting for greater details!
2024-02-21 18:25:10 <@pboy:fedora.im> Would that be OK?
2024-02-21 18:25:18 <@humaton:fedora.im> ack
2024-02-21 18:25:38 <@humaton:fedora.im> If everything goes well we can aim at 41 as self contained change 
2024-02-21 18:25:40 <@pboy:fedora.im> jwhinmpel? 
2024-02-21 18:25:46 <@pboy:fedora.im> coolshirtguy?
2024-02-21 18:25:51 <@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org> sounds good
2024-02-21 18:26:08 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK then:
2024-02-21 18:27:10 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action jednorozec creates a blogpost with details and informs server list when ready. Then we first discuss on list and then schedule a video conference.
2024-02-21 18:27:33 <@jwhimpel:matrix.org> Sorry, had to process higher interrupt.  Plan sounds good to me.
2024-02-21 18:28:27 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, thanks a lot jednorozec Im the first time optimistic with that topic that hangs above our heads for a long time!
2024-02-21 18:29:35 <@pboy:fedora.im> And regarding DevCon, I wrote the wrong subject: I think about "modern Server, Package based, Anaconda and Flexibility".
2024-02-21 18:29:42 <@humaton:fedora.im> Actually bit of My bad that i didnt join you earlier :)
2024-02-21 18:30:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> I so happy at the moment  :-)
2024-02-21 18:30:25 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, lets proceed.
2024-02-21 18:30:35 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 3. Revisiting Server installation media naming convention
2024-02-21 18:30:43 <@pboy:fedora.im> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/126 <https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/126
2024-02-21 18:30:54 <@pboy:fedora.im> irst, we have to find a better name as DVD. current ideas full or local or ???

Second is to find a consistent order of the naming parts, eg.
Name - release - version - arch - filetype
2024-02-21 18:31:05 <@pboy:fedora.im> curently we switch to different ordering for iso, VM, SBC imange, Checksums
2024-02-21 18:31:26 <@pboy:fedora.im> For F40 it may to be too late. Releng won't be happy to make such a change a short time befor new release. But we should try to get in into rawhide now.
2024-02-21 18:31:28 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> naming things is hard.
2024-02-21 18:32:03 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> changing names is a lot more work than you might think... compose tooling, websites changes, qa changes, sync scripts... but of course it's possible.
2024-02-21 18:32:34 <@humaton:fedora.im> yup renaming artifacts is not simple but 
2024-02-21 18:32:44 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yeah, and if get it for F42, it OK, too. But DVD is really outdated.
2024-02-21 18:32:44 <@humaton:fedora.im> calling medium DVD in 2024 is weird
2024-02-21 18:32:51 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> perhaps just dropping dvd would be the best option?
2024-02-21 18:32:57 <@humaton:fedora.im> we may have a whole generation who does not know what it is :)
2024-02-21 18:32:58 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yeah, dvd is odd for sure now a days
2024-02-21 18:34:01 <@eseyman:fedora.im> PXE should probably be a more important target than DVD
2024-02-21 18:34:19 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, just dropping may be strange. Because all other files have this element. 
2024-02-21 18:34:20 <@humaton:fedora.im> hmm Fedora-Server-arch-* is much better
2024-02-21 18:34:36 <@humaton:fedora.im> and Fedora-Server-net-install
2024-02-21 18:34:53 <@humaton:fedora.im> hum I checked just iso's
2024-02-21 18:36:13 <@humaton:fedora.im> ahh ok
2024-02-21 18:36:18 <@pboy:fedora.im> We work almost exclusively with CLI. A systematic naming convention makes a lot of typing easier,
2024-02-21 18:36:36 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Fedora-Server-$arch-$version seems reasonable to me..
2024-02-21 18:36:47 <@pboy:fedora.im> and a better overview in dir listings
2024-02-21 18:36:49 <@humaton:fedora.im> now I see the inconsistency all images are named differently for server 
2024-02-21 18:37:01 <@pboy:fedora.im> yes.
2024-02-21 18:37:18 <@pboy:fedora.im> And the checksum files have the same name for different files.
2024-02-21 18:37:24 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> but yeah, you still need to tell the main image apart from the netinstall iso, etc.
2024-02-21 18:37:28 <@pboy:fedora.im> Overwriting each other when downloading.
2024-02-21 18:37:51 <@humaton:fedora.im> we tried to change it with 39 but as nirik mentioned renaming stuff is not that simple
2024-02-21 18:37:55 <@humaton:fedora.im> it broke things
2024-02-21 18:38:29 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, there is no hurry, I think. There are much more important things
2024-02-21 18:38:56 <@pboy:fedora.im> My idea is, to make a proposal ready to go and the see, in which timeframe to get it done.
2024-02-21 18:39:20 <@pboy:fedora.im> We have postponed it so long ...
2024-02-21 18:40:06 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, how to proceed here? 
2024-02-21 18:40:22 <@humaton:fedora.im> For the media rename
2024-02-21 18:40:39 <@humaton:fedora.im> We need to do this as a change so everyone is aware about it
2024-02-21 18:40:49 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yes, I think full would include USB and pxe
2024-02-21 18:40:58 <@jwhimpel:matrix.org> Does anyone how many different server images are actually produced? Along with current names?
2024-02-21 18:41:22 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> well, there's not a pxe image right? just a kernel and initramfs...
2024-02-21 18:41:26 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> or do you mean the netinstall?
2024-02-21 18:42:04 <@pboy:fedora.im> no, the image could be used for a local installation as well as setup a pxe server
2024-02-21 18:42:52 <@pboy:fedora.im> But probably you would better use netinstall for pxe
2024-02-21 18:43:09 <@jwhimpel:matrix.org> We have “dvd” image and a “net” image.  Are there others?  libvirt used to have an image, but I haven’t see one generated in a while.
2024-02-21 18:43:33 <@pboy:fedora.im> It is generaged as KVM
2024-02-21 18:43:50 <@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org> qcow2 image? 
2024-02-21 18:43:56 <@pboy:fedora.im> and we have the SBC image, which a diffefrent name again
2024-02-21 18:44:07 <@humaton:fedora.im> yup kvm is there https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/branched/Fedora-40-20240221.n.0/compose/Server/x86_64/images/
2024-02-21 18:44:48 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yeah, we have always called that the netinstall image... I don't know if there's a better name
2024-02-21 18:45:19 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, the time is running.
2024-02-21 18:45:23 <@humaton:fedora.im> hm this one does not has the dvd in name https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/branched/Fedora-40-20240221.n.0/compose/Server/aarch64/images/
2024-02-21 18:45:28 <@humaton:fedora.im> is that a special image?
2024-02-21 18:46:04 <@humaton:fedora.im> so I think we should come up with change proposal propose new names and see if we get any feedback on it
2024-02-21 18:46:17 <@cooltshirtguy:matrix.org> isnt that sbc image? 
2024-02-21 18:46:28 <@humaton:fedora.im> ahh that makes sense
2024-02-21 18:47:15 <@jwhimpel:matrix.org> The libvirt one is either a “raw” or “qcow2” image.  I forget which one it is.
2024-02-21 18:47:28 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> it's qcow2 I am pretty sure.
2024-02-21 18:47:42 <@pboy:fedora.im> Proposal: Let's further discuss on mailing list and aim to make a final decision in 4 weeks latest. And then it is up to releng to find a workable timeframe.  There is no urgency.
2024-02-21 18:47:44 <@humaton:fedora.im> it here https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/branched/Fedora-40-20240221.n.0/compose/Server/x86_64/images/
2024-02-21 18:48:27 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yes, it would be progress to have Fedora-Server-40-KVM   :-)
2024-02-21 18:49:13 <@pboy:fedora.im> I think we agree about the proposal?
2024-02-21 18:49:53 <@eseyman:fedora.im> Yes, that sounds like a good idea
2024-02-21 18:49:57 <@pboy:fedora.im> !agreed We further discuss naming convention on mailing list and aim to make a final decision in 4 weeks latest. And then it is up to releng to find a workable timeframe.  There is no urgency.
2024-02-21 18:50:12 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 4. LVM2 default configuration change
2024-02-21 18:50:23 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2258764 
2024-02-21 18:50:40 <@pboy:fedora.im> It's currently a bit difficult.
2024-02-21 18:51:09 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I didn't get a chance to try and ping anyone, but I saw adamw was... ?
2024-02-21 18:51:12 <@pboy:fedora.im> It is difficult to explain  auf ARM SIB that there is a change in the LVM default configuration 
2024-02-21 18:52:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> So we have to adjust the images produce the same installation as our iso files do. Anaconda team works on that, at least the first part.
2024-02-21 18:52:41 <@pboy:fedora.im> The fist part is, to remove the device file from the image, because it is specific for the target system.
2024-02-21 18:53:00 <@pboy:fedora.im> The secon part is to cfreate a suitable devices file at first boot.
2024-02-21 18:53:10 <@pboy:fedora.im> No idea how to do that.
2024-02-21 18:53:42 <@pboy:fedora.im> And then we have to adjust the arm-installer-script to the new way LVM works.
2024-02-21 18:54:21 <@pboy:fedora.im> And ARM SIG will back to the way it was up to F38. But that is a no go in my opinion.
2024-02-21 18:54:27 <@eseyman:fedora.im> Do we have open bugs in the subject? Every time I'm pointed to a bugzilla bug, it is in a closed state
2024-02-21 18:56:31 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yes, is is currently https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2247872
2024-02-21 18:57:30 <@pboy:fedora.im> If you scroll down, I tried hard to explain, but I'm on the limit of my english skills
2024-02-21 18:58:37 <@eseyman:fedora.im> Okay, I'm going to track that bug
2024-02-21 18:59:18 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, time is up. I switch to open floor.
2024-02-21 18:59:31 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 7. Open Floor
2024-02-21 18:59:40 <@pboy:fedora.im> Anyhing here?
2024-02-21 18:59:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> hey
2024-02-21 18:59:54 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah
2024-02-21 18:59:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> one thing
2024-02-21 19:00:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Just an FYI for everyone, the intent of the Fedora Cloud WG is to shut down ImageFactory for the F41 cycle, and we're replacing that with KIWI for our images in F40 cycle
2024-02-21 19:01:23 <@eseyman:fedora.im> yes, I flagged that as one of the F40 changes we should watch
2024-02-21 19:01:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> if Server WG is interested in using KIWI for their non-ISO images for F41, please let me know and we'll work that out
2024-02-21 19:01:42 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yes, What says releng about it? 
2024-02-21 19:02:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, at this point, I think I'm waiting on the Koji upgrade so that we can start rolling it out :)
2024-02-21 19:02:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well that and the pungi PR to enable support for it in composes
2024-02-21 19:02:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !link https://pagure.io/pungi/pull-request/1720
2024-02-21 19:03:26 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, I would like to stick as close as possible to the way Fedora / releng is doing it. ImageFactory is a pain ... But it works. 
2024-02-21 19:04:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Fedora Cloud is more or less the main "maintainer" (ish?) of ImageFactory, and we'll be discontinuing that during F41 cycle
2024-02-21 19:05:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> after that, your choices are Lorax, KIWI, or OSBuild (depending on what is supported in pungi and what artifacts are supported by the different tools)
2024-02-21 19:05:28 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, there are a lot of images created with ImageFactory. It would be hard to switch all together at once?
2024-02-21 19:05:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the container images and the cloud images are switching in F40
2024-02-21 19:06:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> for F41, SIGs that produce non-ISO images (ARM disk images and VM disk images mainly) will need to switch away
2024-02-21 19:06:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Fedora Cloud will be reaching out to every stakeholder when the time comes
2024-02-21 19:07:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> ImageFactory is difficult, everything else is probably better. What does Releng recommend? Do we want to support all alternatives at the same time? 
2024-02-21 19:07:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we'll see once we get closer to that time
2024-02-21 19:07:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm just giving a heads-up for y'all
2024-02-21 19:08:36 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yes thanks! I wanted to discuss about that at Fosdem with you. But time was short, unfortunately.
2024-02-21 19:08:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, alas there's never enough time :)
2024-02-21 19:09:28 <@eseyman:fedora.im> I believe we've overstepped our endtime
2024-02-21 19:09:31 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK. I'll take this as a topic on one of our next meetings. 
2024-02-21 19:09:42 <@pboy:fedora.im> YES, we have to close now.
2024-02-21 19:09:55 <@pboy:fedora.im> It was an exciting meeting today !!!!!
2024-02-21 19:10:08 <@pboy:fedora.im> Meet you in 2 weeks again.
2024-02-21 19:10:16 <@pboy:fedora.im> Bye bye
2024-02-21 19:10:20 <@eseyman:fedora.im> See you in 14 days, people
2024-02-21 19:10:25 <@pboy:fedora.im> and thanks for coming
2024-02-21 19:10:43 <@pboy:fedora.im> !endmeeting