2024-11-13 18:00:26 <@pboy:fedora.im> !startmeeting fedora-server
2024-11-13 18:00:28 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-11-13 18:00:26 UTC
2024-11-13 18:00:29 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fedora-server'
2024-11-13 18:00:35 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic Welcome / roll call
2024-11-13 18:00:44 <@adamwill:fedora.im> !hi
2024-11-13 18:00:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Adam Williamson (adamwill) - he / him / his
2024-11-13 18:00:47 <@pboy:fedora.im> 
2024-11-13 18:00:47 <@pboy:fedora.im> As usual, let's wait a moment  
2024-11-13 18:01:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-11-13 18:01:06 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-11-13 18:01:13 <@pboy:fedora.im> Hi Adamn#1
2024-11-13 18:01:32 <@pboy:fedora.im> Hi Neal!
2024-11-13 18:02:45 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> morning. lurking in the back in the epel meeting also
2024-11-13 18:03:19 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yeah, to less time for too much tasks  :-)
2024-11-13 18:03:42 <@pboy:fedora.im> Nevertheless, we fulfill our Quorum.
2024-11-13 18:04:21 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, let's start with the agenda.
2024-11-13 18:04:29 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic Agenda
2024-11-13 18:04:37 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  Follow-up actions & announcements
2024-11-13 18:04:45 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  Looking back at testing release 41
2024-11-13 18:04:54 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  PostgreSQL – is our automatic testing sufficient?
2024-11-13 18:05:03 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  Our work program 2024/2025
2024-11-13 18:05:10 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  Open Floor
2024-11-13 18:05:49 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, I forgot:
2024-11-13 18:06:03 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info Fedora Server Edition user poll
2024-11-13 18:06:29 <@pboy:fedora.im> Anything to add / to comment?
2024-11-13 18:06:52 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, let's start
2024-11-13 18:07:01 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 1. Follow-up actions & announcements
2024-11-13 18:07:12 <@pboy:fedora.im> For information purposes only: Here is an rundown of our current activities:
2024-11-13 18:07:22 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action ON HOLD pboy will file an issue with releng regarding installation media
2024-11-13 18:07:32 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action ONGOING pboy will close bug #2247872 (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2247872)
2024-11-13 18:07:40 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action ONGOING pboy will write a draft issue for the goal "file server" as a base for further finetuning and detailed specification
2024-11-13 18:07:50 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action ONGOING jwhimnpel will develop a Ansible playbook for NFS service
2024-11-13 18:07:58 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action PENDING eseyman review John's playbooks
2024-11-13 18:08:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action DONE eseyman will monitor the change list for possible issues which may affect Server
2024-11-13 18:08:16 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action DONE mowest will reach out to AdamW and discuss how we can use the result tables.
2024-11-13 18:08:26 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action DONE pboy will create a tracking issue and copy the table of F 40 as a starting point.
2024-11-13 18:08:36 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action DONE Mowest will create a Lime survey version of the discussed draft and reach out to Justin to put the project forward.
2024-11-13 18:08:45 <@pboy:fedora.im> !action PENDING Mowest will write a 1st draft of an article about our poll.
2024-11-13 18:08:51 <@pboy:fedora.im> See:
2024-11-13 18:09:04 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/server-working-group/wg-minutes-2024/
2024-11-13 18:09:38 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> !hi
2024-11-13 18:09:38 <@pboy:fedora.im> That's only to keept an overview, what we have accomplished and what has still to be done
2024-11-13 18:09:40 <@zodbot:fedora.im> John Himpel (jwhimpel)
2024-11-13 18:09:52 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Sorry that I am late.
2024-11-13 18:10:09 <@pboy:fedora.im> Thanks, we just started.
2024-11-13 18:10:19 <@pboy:fedora.im> Anything to add to the list?
2024-11-13 18:10:31 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Nope
2024-11-13 18:10:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> What about the port to kiwi for the images?
2024-11-13 18:10:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/146
2024-11-13 18:11:18 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yes, we agreed to do it for KVM, details are on the agenda for next meeting.
2024-11-13 18:11:35 <@pboy:fedora.im> It there anything urgent?
2024-11-13 18:11:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nope
2024-11-13 18:11:54 <@adamwill:fedora.im> is there anything holding it up, or should we just go ahead and do it?
2024-11-13 18:12:00 <@adamwill:fedora.im> earlier in the cycle is better for such changes, generally
2024-11-13 18:12:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there is that
2024-11-13 18:12:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm also beginning to reach out to everyone else about switching too
2024-11-13 18:12:29 <@pboy:fedora.im> I think, we already agreed and you should proceed.
2024-11-13 18:12:53 <@adamwill:fedora.im> i guess we just need to bikeshed the name
2024-11-13 18:13:04 <@pboy:fedora.im> We have to determine some details, e.g. how I can make changes, e.r. regarding the open bug mentioned above.
2024-11-13 18:13:06 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> +1 to just doing it. ;)
2024-11-13 18:14:29 <@pboy:fedora.im> The naming convention is an additional topic. I suppose we should do that together with the isos, or stat now to use the name we agreed upon (I think, earlier is betterI
2024-11-13 18:16:21 <@pboy:fedora.im> I'm looking for the naming we agreed upon
2024-11-13 18:16:27 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yeah, we should agree on a name indeed. I personally don't care much... ;)
2024-11-13 18:16:41 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> What do we have in that PR Conan Kudo ?
2024-11-13 18:16:52 <@adamwill:fedora.im> Server-Guest-Generic iirc
2024-11-13 18:16:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2024-11-13 18:17:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's more or less based on the naming pattern used for existing kiwi images
2024-11-13 18:17:11 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/126
2024-11-13 18:17:28 <@adamwill:fedora.im> i don't really care about the name that goes into the image filename, but i'd kinda prefer to keep the subvariant as 'Server_KVM', as it currently is
2024-11-13 18:17:47 <@adamwill:fedora.im> can send a pungi-fedora pr for that
2024-11-13 18:17:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the subvariant is settable in the pungi thing, so we can leave that whatever
2024-11-13 18:18:11 <@pboy:fedora.im> We wanted to use something like  Fedora-Server-39-virt-x86_64-1.5.qcow2
2024-11-13 18:18:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the `Server-` prefix is the only real non-negotiable part
2024-11-13 18:18:30 <@pboy:fedora.im> For isos: Fedora-Server-39-offline-x86_64-1.5.iso
2024-11-13 18:18:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so kiwi based images are configured in pungi to follow NVRA format
2024-11-13 18:19:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> technically we can override it, but I'd rather not so that automation that parses the filenames can have something reasonably predictable
2024-11-13 18:19:48 <@pboy:fedora.im> So we had to use Server-39-virt-x86_64-1.5.qcow2  instead of Fedora-Server-39-virt-x86_64-1.5.qcow2 ?
2024-11-13 18:20:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> hence `Fedora-Server-Guest-Generic-42-1.5.x86_64.qcow2` currently
2024-11-13 18:21:26 <@pboy:fedora.im> Hm, I thing we should keep what we agreed upon.
2024-11-13 18:21:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, we can override it for you, but you will be the only ones with that format
2024-11-13 18:22:25 <@pboy:fedora.im> it just changes "Geust-Generic" to virt 
2024-11-13 18:22:39 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, and changes the order regard the release tag.
2024-11-13 18:22:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so what do we call the image that goes on hardware?
2024-11-13 18:22:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> because right now we have Guest-Generic and Host-Generic
2024-11-13 18:23:33 <@pboy:fedora.im> Currently we decided: Fedora-Server-39-offline-x86_64-1.5.iso
2024-11-13 18:23:51 <@pboy:fedora.im> and online resp.
2024-11-13 18:24:00 <@adamwill:fedora.im> conan means the other disk image
2024-11-13 18:24:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, the raw disk image
2024-11-13 18:24:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> not the iso
2024-11-13 18:24:22 <@adamwill:fedora.im> https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/rawhide/Fedora-Rawhide-20241113.n.0/compose/Server/aarch64/images/
2024-11-13 18:24:31 <@pboy:fedora.im> The SBC is  edora-Server-39-rawsbc-aarch64-1.5.raw.xz 
2024-11-13 18:24:37 <@adamwill:fedora.im> currently we have "Fedora-Server-KVM" (virt guest) and "Fedora-Server" (intended for hw)
2024-11-13 18:25:38 <@pboy:fedora.im> Regarding hardware we decided online (netboot) and offline (DVD)
2024-11-13 18:25:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> right now, we're not talking about ISO files
2024-11-13 18:26:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> those are handled by a different tool and aren't currently eligible to move to kiwi
2024-11-13 18:26:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (or any other image tool fedora supports)
2024-11-13 18:27:10 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Are we talking about the name that is shown in /etc/os-release?
2024-11-13 18:27:56 <@pboy:fedora.im> At the end we need to think in long term. And we want to keep together what belongs together. Therefore the order of the naming elements.
2024-11-13 18:28:30 <@pboy:fedora.im> John Himpel: no, the naming of the download files.
2024-11-13 18:29:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> no, this is just the filename for the image
2024-11-13 18:29:03 <@adamwill:fedora.im> i think we should just port the image now and argue about the naming later
2024-11-13 18:29:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah
2024-11-13 18:29:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I can merge it and then we can start hooking things up
2024-11-13 18:29:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the filename is configurable in pungi, we can change it at any time
2024-11-13 18:29:43 <@adamwill:fedora.im> hooking things up: https://pagure.io/pungi-fedora/pull-request/1404
2024-11-13 18:30:28 <@adamwill:fedora.im> (that only ports the KVM image for now, not the hw one)
2024-11-13 18:30:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the hw one needs to move too since it's imgfac anyway
2024-11-13 18:31:00 <@pboy:fedora.im> proposed !agreed The KVM image will be migrated to KIWI now, the adjustment of the naming will de dealt with later together with the isos.
2024-11-13 18:31:12 <@adamwill:fedora.im> do we know if pbrobinson thinks there's any special hw support magic in the IF build or anything? wasn't that a thing last cycle?
2024-11-13 18:31:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> he thinks the if stuff is _missing_ extra magic things
2024-11-13 18:31:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> he thinks the imgfac stuff is _missing_ extra magic things
2024-11-13 18:32:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but I've poured over both imgfac and osbuild and anything they're doing is already being handled in kiwi
2024-11-13 18:32:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> anyway, I just merged the kiwi descriptions
2024-11-13 18:32:33 <@adamwill:fedora.im> oh, right, we were talking about going back from osbuild to if
2024-11-13 18:32:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Peter Boy: +1
2024-11-13 18:33:05 <@adamwill:fedora.im> i guess we can merge the PR to port the kvm image then i can send another to port the hw image
2024-11-13 18:33:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> sure
2024-11-13 18:33:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we'll need nirik to do the koji things too (package spaces and such)
2024-11-13 18:33:38 <@adamwill:fedora.im> ack, btw
2024-11-13 18:33:58 <@pboy:fedora.im> John?
2024-11-13 18:34:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> John Himpel: ping
2024-11-13 18:35:12 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, I suppose, John has no objection. Therefore
2024-11-13 18:35:53 <@pboy:fedora.im> I suppose, John has no objection. Therefore
2024-11-13 18:35:57 <@pboy:fedora.im> !agreed The KVM image will be migrated to KIWI now, the adjustment of the naming will de dealt with later together with the isos.
2024-11-13 18:36:33 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, let's switch to the next topic.
2024-11-13 18:37:10 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 2. Fedora Server Edition user poll
2024-11-13 18:38:38 <@pboy:fedora.im> Just informational: As fas as I know mowest and JWF (he/him)  could get together an manage to transfer the current version to Fedora Infra.
2024-11-13 18:38:57 <@pboy:fedora.im> Se we are still waiting at the moment.
2024-11-13 18:39:19 <@pboy:fedora.im> mowest: ping! are to online?
2024-11-13 18:40:02 <@pboy:fedora.im> Unfortunately, it is slowly becoming urgent. 
2024-11-13 18:40:08 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, next topic.
2024-11-13 18:40:28 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 3. Looking back at testing release 41
2024-11-13 18:40:37 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/144
2024-11-13 18:40:48 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/server@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/ODISTPROLKECRXX73LA5VUVZJFIFEHRR/
2024-11-13 18:43:05 <@pboy:fedora.im> No comment so far?
2024-11-13 18:43:24 <@pboy:fedora.im> Maybe we need more discussion on mailing list?
2024-11-13 18:43:45 <@mowest:fedora.im> You are right I have not heard back from JWF
2024-11-13 18:44:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there was some pretty vehement disagreement from Fedora QA via adamw, I think what they say matters quite a lot here
2024-11-13 18:44:31 <@adamwill:fedora.im> what did i disagree about
2024-11-13 18:44:31 <@mowest:fedora.im> So I don't have the permission or training to host it on Fedora's instance 
2024-11-13 18:44:52 <@adamwill:fedora.im> i don't disagree with the idea of doing more testing :P, just about how/where we track it
2024-11-13 18:45:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> do we typically have testing days for Fedora Server?
2024-11-13 18:45:55 <@pboy:fedora.im> mowest: Indeed. So we need Juistin.
2024-11-13 18:46:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's usually the avenue to provide focused testing efforts
2024-11-13 18:46:34 <@pboy:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: We have no testing days. that was my original idea to create one. 
2024-11-13 18:47:19 <@pboy:fedora.im> But  I think we should make onother week of discussion on mailing list.
2024-11-13 18:47:33 <@pboy:fedora.im> It's quite late now. And we have another qauest
2024-11-13 18:47:42 <@pboy:fedora.im> question about testing.
2024-11-13 18:48:05 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 4. PostgreSQL – is our automatic testing sufficient?
2024-11-13 18:48:14 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/FKOGJ44LI7MYR4DE54UUHBLLUG2ENA6L/
2024-11-13 18:48:47 <@pboy:fedora.im> My problem is not the bug, but the fact we didn't detect it while testing.
2024-11-13 18:49:07 <@adamwill:fedora.im> i did just reply to this. we do not test upgrade scenarios with pgsql at all currently.
2024-11-13 18:49:23 <@pboy:fedora.im> This time it was 2just" a warning, next time maybe an error and service disruption
2024-11-13 18:50:21 <@pboy:fedora.im> adamw: Is there a way to do upgrade testing on psql?
2024-11-13 18:50:30 <@adamwill:fedora.im> i mean, sure, it's just work
2024-11-13 18:50:36 <@pboy:fedora.im> PosrtgreSQL is one of our most important services.
2024-11-13 18:51:08 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, i suppose  just -> "just"  :-)
2024-11-13 18:52:11 <@pboy:fedora.im> Do you see a chance to work on it over the next 2-3 releases?  And we do manual testing in the meantime?
2024-11-13 18:52:51 <@adamwill:fedora.im> hard to say. i've always got more good ideas for stuff than i have time to do
2024-11-13 18:53:00 <@adamwill:fedora.im> if someone wants to learn openqa test writing and help out, that'd be great. :P
2024-11-13 18:54:11 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, we try to find someone. 
2024-11-13 18:55:05 <@pboy:fedora.im> I think, we skip to Open Floor. The time left is too short for the working program topic.
2024-11-13 18:55:20 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 6. Open Floor
2024-11-13 18:55:34 <@pboy:fedora.im> Anything to add here? 
2024-11-13 18:56:44 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Are there any plans to extend KIWI to generate iso files usable by Anaconda?
2024-11-13 18:59:01 <@adamwill:fedora.im> it can already build live ISOs. not sure about netinst/dvd images, Conan Kudo ?
2024-11-13 19:00:36 <@farchord:fedora.im> Wouldn't the "Everything" image act as a DVD iso so to speak?
2024-11-13 19:00:54 <@farchord:fedora.im> But afaik, we make Live images, and in some cases, disk images (raw.xz)
2024-11-13 19:01:21 <@farchord:fedora.im> Oh nvm
2024-11-13 19:01:21 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> No because we still use XFS instead of BTRFS.
2024-11-13 19:01:32 <@farchord:fedora.im> I misread, I'm sorry
2024-11-13 19:01:33 <@adamwill:fedora.im> server has no lives. server produces disk images, a network install image, and a dvd install image.
2024-11-13 19:02:51 <@pboy:fedora.im> As I understand it, iso images are either work in progress or work under decision. And it has nothing to do with the file system for partitions.
2024-11-13 19:03:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> netinst eventually, I don't know about dvds
2024-11-13 19:03:46 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> He was asking about the "Everything" image, which differs from "Server" image.
2024-11-13 19:03:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the main issue is someone needs to write an equivalent to the "product builder" extension for suse dvds for kiwi to support fedora ones
2024-11-13 19:04:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and to do that, someone has to understand how to make fedora dvd images
2024-11-13 19:04:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and none of that is written down anywhere I could find
2024-11-13 19:05:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I have done a lot of spelunking for porting various image types to kiwi, just never got around to the boot.iso and install dvds
2024-11-13 19:06:41 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, I think we have to wait and see and live with what we have at the moment. 
2024-11-13 19:07:02 <@pboy:fedora.im> And in the end, that works well.
2024-11-13 19:07:51 <@pboy:fedora.im> We've already gone over time. Let's continue next week.
2024-11-13 19:08:02 <@pboy:fedora.im> By everybody and thanks for comming.
2024-11-13 19:08:23 <@pboy:fedora.im> !endmeeting