19:03:47 <mizmo> #startmeeting
19:03:47 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Oct 14 19:03:47 2014 UTC.  The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:03:47 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:03:54 <mizmo> #chair robyduck
19:03:54 <zodbot> Current chairs: mizmo robyduck
19:03:57 <mizmo> #chair ryanlerch
19:03:57 <zodbot> Current chairs: mizmo robyduck ryanlerch
19:03:59 <mizmo> #chair shaiton
19:04:00 <zodbot> Current chairs: mizmo robyduck ryanlerch shaiton
19:04:02 <mizmo> okay
19:04:03 <sadin> :O
19:04:04 <robyduck> thx
19:04:08 <mizmo> #topic borchure site
19:04:16 * jreznik is lurking
19:04:21 * sijis is here
19:04:22 <mizmo> okay so here's the design challenges we have around the borchure site
19:04:42 <mizmo> #1 it's gotta be dead simple. we're targeting mainly to new users who never used fedora before or folks not really into the fedora community (yet)
19:04:54 <mizmo> #2 it's really got to sell fedora and make the reasons you want to use it clear
19:05:14 <mizmo> #3 each of the three products needs its own space to make its own pitch because the products are made for very different purposes and target different people sometimes
19:05:31 <mizmo> #4 for each of the product-specific pages, we've got to honor both the fedora brand/logo and the individual product brand/logo
19:05:48 <mizmo> #5 we need some kind of central page to tie it all together / direct people to the product they need
19:05:58 <mizmo> okay got all that? :)
19:06:08 * sadin nods
19:06:11 <sijis> i thikn so
19:06:13 <mizmo> so this is the rough mockup i made based on ryan's and robyduck's mockups so far
19:06:13 <robyduck> +5
19:06:22 <mizmo> i don't solve #5 with it, but we can talk about that
19:06:25 <mizmo> http://i.imgur.com/kwpLh12.png
19:06:39 <mizmo> i want the top bar to work the way it does in robyduck's mockup, but i want it to be solid / non-transparent
19:06:57 <robyduck> ok
19:07:02 <mizmo> any of these colorblocks could be replaced with photography or illustrations; i just blocked them out flat since it's a simple mockup
19:07:12 <mizmo> basically, from top to bottom -
19:07:31 <mizmo> #1 - branding. product on left, fedora on right. i've seen this pattern on some sites (like getfirefox.org)
19:07:39 <mizmo> where they do firefox on left, mozilla on right
19:07:55 <mizmo> #2 short call to action with actionable links (tour, download now) and bling
19:08:15 <mizmo> #3 - more detailed call to action - why fedora is awesome, why it is different, why it solves your problems and makes you popcorn
19:08:50 <mizmo> #4 - photo of actual user (could rotate) with testimonial. similar to what we have at www.fpo/using-fedora now, but the interviewees should be in the target audience for the given product
19:09:12 <shaiton> (and they should be updated)
19:09:14 <mizmo> #5 - feature highlight - kind of how we do in the slideshow on the front of www.fpo now, pick a feature compelling to the target users and provide links for more info
19:09:17 <mizmo> shaiton +1
19:09:26 <mizmo> #6 - referrals to the other ffedora products
19:09:44 <mizmo> #7 - some kind of standard fedora footer that should include link to how to join community
19:10:05 <robyduck> so you want to put workstation over the other 2 products if I understand that right
19:10:16 <mizmo> nope -
19:10:19 <mizmo> i mean we can if you want
19:10:23 <ryanlerch> robyduck, this is the example of the workstation page
19:10:29 <mizmo> but this is just an idea for getfedora.org/workstation or whatnot
19:10:31 <ryanlerch> AIUI
19:10:36 <sadin> Quick question are these mockups going to be on github?
19:10:37 <robyduck> ?
19:10:46 * mattdm appears in a poof of smoke
19:10:47 <robyduck> is it workstation or the brochure?
19:10:53 <mizmo> what i dont know is what getfedora.org looks like. maybe it just is very simple splash linking out to all three
19:10:58 <mizmo> robyduck, it's the brochure for workstation :)
19:11:06 <robyduck> lol
19:11:09 <mizmo> mattdm, http://i.imgur.com/kwpLh12.png <= discussion on this now
19:11:16 <mizmo> robyduck, lol does it make sense tho?
19:11:34 <robyduck> it's not really what I expected
19:11:46 <mizmo> tell me what you were thinking
19:11:47 * mattdm likes the placeholder text
19:11:58 <robyduck> but I'm fine with it, we will have much more workstation users than cloud or server users
19:12:22 <robyduck> and the goal of the websites are new users, so workstation is what they are looking for
19:12:31 <mizmo> mattdm, backlog http://fpaste.org/141867/13313939/
19:12:33 <robyduck> it makes sense
19:12:40 <mizmo> robyduck, we could do one of these for server and cloud too
19:12:44 <mattdm> mizmo: thanks!
19:12:51 <shaiton> robyduck: it's not the central page (get.fpo) where all products will have same space. it's the workstation specific page, for the cloud one it would feature cloud ;)
19:12:56 <mizmo> eg if this one is getfedora.org/workstation, those would be getfedora.org/server and getfedora.org/cloud
19:13:10 <mizmo> think about how we have spins.fpo vs spins.fpo/kde or spins.fpo/design
19:13:15 <mizmo> it's more like the spins.fpo setup
19:13:22 <robyduck> yep, got it
19:14:02 <ryanlerch> so the top-level page might be a super-simple affair with just links to the 3 products?
19:14:21 <mizmo> now one thing that isnt in this mock that i think might be neat is if we detect you're running fedora we add in a block near the top about upgrading thru fedup (like robyduck's mockup has now)
19:14:29 <mizmo> ryanlerch, yeh i think so.
19:14:33 <ryanlerch> i.e. the workstation link would link to this page
19:14:40 <ryanlerch> (the mockup)
19:14:58 <mizmo> yep
19:15:03 <shaiton> mizmo: that would be great
19:15:27 <robyduck> ryanlerch: yes, just the 3 products, maybe with our 4 foundations?
19:15:30 <mizmo> and maybe if we detect (somehow, maybe via cookie???) you have a FAS account we add another bar to offer you a beta or alpha
19:16:00 <mizmo> i dunno we could get fancy if we want. i know everybody uses this flat horiz bar design but it makes it really easy to slap in new / additional bars or take some out depending on circumstances
19:16:14 <sadin> mizmo chrome/firefox extension would work. like gnome3 does with extensions
19:16:21 <mizmo> robyduck, ryanlerch - yeh maybe a big statement about what fedora as a whole is about
19:16:28 <robyduck> +1
19:16:33 <mizmo> why we do what we do
19:16:33 <mizmo> etc
19:16:42 <shaiton> mizmo: fas features should be on the hub, no?
19:16:43 <mizmo> could also have a promo space for fudcons or flock
19:16:47 <mattdm> +1
19:16:59 <mizmo> shaiton, yes, the hub is really where fas stuff goes.
19:17:13 <mizmo> this was more a small idea if we knew they logged into the hub somehow (i dont know if its possible)
19:17:18 <robyduck> I dont' think we are able to have the FAS for F21
19:17:25 <mizmo> oh thats fine
19:17:32 <mizmo> more of a long term idea
19:17:43 <robyduck> and also we should think why we need the FAS on the hub
19:17:58 <mizmo> but this kind of setup for the brochures i think might not be hard to scaffold. ryan and i could take the photos we need / make the illustrations and do the interviews / writeups
19:18:17 <robyduck> cool
19:18:22 <mizmo> does this mockup seem like the right direction? i can move forward and mock up a central page for www.fpo
19:18:29 <mizmo> if this soudns good we could move on to talk about hub
19:19:05 <mattdm> I like it.
19:19:08 <robyduck> mizmo: I have some questions
19:19:10 <robyduck> :)
19:19:32 <mizmo> robyduck, sure shoot
19:19:51 <robyduck> I mean, the mockup looks great and it's really good as marketing, but where do you think to put all the other stuff?
19:20:21 <robyduck> alternative downloads, spins links, verify, etc...all in the *tour*?
19:20:22 <ryanlerch> robyduck, can you define "other stuff"
19:20:46 <mattdm> we do need to make sure that kde and other desktop spins are easy to find for people who want them
19:21:09 <Emichan> spins should go on the top level page
19:21:17 <robyduck> no
19:21:25 <sadin> If thats the case shouldnt they be under the "workstations" page
19:21:29 <robyduck> spins will be only on the spins.fpo
19:21:40 <robyduck> we won't have them on the main website
19:21:57 <robyduck> but we will have a prominent link to spins.fpo
19:22:04 <mizmo> robyduck, my thought for that stuff was it'd live in the footer
19:22:06 <Emichan> link to/info about spins should be on the top level page
19:22:13 <gnokii> mmh its a little bit confusing to have spin.fpo and getfedora
19:22:24 <mizmo> Emichan, i dont think we want to promote them that much on the brochure site
19:22:31 <mizmo> the brochure focus is on the products
19:22:45 <robyduck> we discussed that already IIRC
19:22:54 <Emichan> eh... we don't want them to be too much of an afterthought, though
19:23:13 <mizmo> true
19:23:13 <robyduck> the brochure is for the products, spins will live on the specific spins site
19:23:15 <sijis> question ...
19:23:32 <sijis> 2 actually- where is the robyduck mockup
19:23:44 <sadin> Why dont the links to the spins live on the workstation page considering they are all workstations just with different WMs
19:23:46 <mizmo> we can definitely have expandable links for the download page of each product for the alternative methods (and maybe promote the methods most relevant to that particular product more highly)
19:23:48 <robyduck> sijis: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Robyduck/fedora.next-websites
19:23:49 * sadin was wondering that too
19:23:52 <sijis> also, when someone clicks on download.. what will the user see?
19:24:00 * robyduck is waiting for the build to complete stg
19:24:10 <mizmo> sadin, bc they aren't all workstations and they aren't governed by workstation wg
19:24:15 <mizmo> they aren't products
19:24:21 <mizmo> so they have a much lower level of support
19:24:32 <mizmo> sijis, haven't mocked that up yet :)
19:24:35 <robyduck> mizmo: can you look on my mockup?
19:24:37 <sadin> mizmo i see
19:24:37 <Emichan> we might want to mention the desktop spins on the workstation site, though since for a lot of users workstation will = desktop
19:24:38 <gnokii> sadin: I dont see that Design Suite or Jam are just an alternative desktop environment
19:24:48 <sadin> gnokii, youre right
19:25:09 <robyduck> mizmo: https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/1/11/Workstation.jpg
19:25:10 <mizmo> sijis, depending on the product... like if it's the cloud product then we (maybe) promote VMs and cloud images and have isos lower down (if that makes sense)
19:25:18 <mizmo> robyduck, got it open
19:25:31 <robyduck> ok, there is a row with 3 columns
19:25:45 <mizmo> Emichan, two points -
19:25:51 <robyduck> where we have alternative downloads (some products as cloud will have many of them)
19:25:54 <mizmo> #1 i dont want to overwhelm brand new usesr with a choice of 12 desktops
19:25:59 <Cydrobolt> Hello
19:26:02 <shaiton> +1 mizmo
19:26:03 <Cydrobolt> Is this the meeting?
19:26:07 <mizmo> #2 workstation is for a very specific target audience that doesn't intersect with all the desktop spins
19:26:09 <ryanlerch> Cydrobolt, yes
19:26:16 <Cydrobolt> How much have I missed?
19:26:24 <robyduck> half an hour
19:26:28 <Cydrobolt> Mmh
19:26:29 <ryanlerch> Cydrobolt, i'll paste a log
19:26:32 <Cydrobolt> Can someone tldr?
19:26:37 <mizmo> robyduck, the row that used to have the little pandas right!
19:26:49 <robyduck> mizmo: pages are up now
19:26:54 <robyduck> can you look at them?
19:26:57 <robyduck> http://stg.fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora
19:27:08 <mizmo> robyduck, oh wonderful! yep
19:27:09 <robyduck> http://stg.fedoraproject.org/en/workstation/
19:27:11 <Emichan> mizmo, agreed, but those points can be mitigated by the way the info is presented.
19:27:13 <ryanlerch> Cydrobolt, http://www.fpaste.org/141875/13314820/
19:27:18 <robyduck> I thought is was easier for all
19:27:46 <mizmo> robyduck, this is exactly the right content i think we need for www.fpo front page here on the front page of stg.fpo
19:28:01 <robyduck> ok, spins included?
19:28:08 <sijis> mizmo: +1 on that /en/workstation page
19:28:08 <mizmo> short/high-level call to action for fedora.... more deatiled call to action... specific deatils on each of the 3 products..
19:28:12 <robyduck> will just be a link to spins.fpo
19:28:18 <mizmo> robyduck, yep that makes sense
19:28:20 <Emichan> the target user for workstation is not general desktop user, but that is the most appropriate product for the general desktop user
19:28:22 <mizmo> i think thats a good way to present it
19:28:30 <robyduck> cool
19:28:35 <sadin> Emichan +1
19:28:35 <sijis> so, it sounds like 'spins' will still exist then, right
19:28:37 <mizmo> Emichan, i dont know that the kde sig would agree with that
19:28:45 <robyduck> we can do that also with the design you did
19:29:13 <Emichan> kde sig isn't making a product for f21 afaik :)
19:29:15 <Cydrobolt> +1 on the workstation page
19:29:18 <Cydrobolt> Looks quite nice
19:29:37 <mizmo> sijis, oh yeh spins.fpo isn't going away, as far as i know, although generally i dont think there's a lot of direction there right now. :-/ but we can definitely update the look & feel of it to make it match better
19:29:40 <robyduck> mizmo: and I agree also in the footer we can have some minor important links, instead of all the links we actually have
19:29:51 <mizmo> Emichan, theres a lot of politics there i have no interest in and would like to avoid
19:29:56 <Emichan> and I can forsee a lot of media linking directly to the workstation page saying "i.e. fedora is now fedora workstation"
19:30:05 <mizmo> Emichan, but no they aren't making a product. they are making a desktop spin
19:30:24 <mizmo> mattdm, ^^ is this a concern about media
19:30:28 <Cydrobolt> We can use the same styles from the brochure site to make spins.fpo
19:30:33 <Emichan> my point is that having an unobtrusive mention of alternative desktop spins on the workstation page, makes sense to me considering the kind of traffic that page is likely to get
19:30:33 <mizmo> or have we primed the pump enoguh with the wg announcements
19:30:52 <Cydrobolt> We can have a one-page site for spins.fpo, it would look nicer, imho
19:30:56 <Cydrobolt> to keep it simple
19:31:07 <mizmo> Emichan, we're going to have it in the footer on every product page, and a specific call out on the front page (see stg.fpo)
19:31:22 <robyduck> Cydrobolt: we won't touch the spins.fpo for now
19:31:30 <Emichan> mizmo, we're going to mention the alt desktop spins specifically in the footer?
19:31:31 <robyduck> we can do that for F22
19:31:35 <Cydrobolt> Mmh
19:31:41 <mizmo> Emichan, no theres going to be a link for spins.fpo
19:31:45 <ryanlerch> mizmo, maybe having links at the top of the products pages to the other products could help? so that the other two products are at the top too?
19:31:46 <Cydrobolt> I use a spin, and most people I know use spins as well
19:32:03 <ryanlerch> maybt that can mitigate some of the "workstation is the new fedora"
19:32:13 <mizmo> ryanlerch, hmm that might work
19:32:21 <robyduck> ryanlerch: good point, but I think we should keep the product related stuff on the top
19:32:40 <Emichan> the header could have links to the other products
19:32:49 <Emichan> that way it's right there at the top and easy to switch
19:32:49 <robyduck> in mo's mockup the other two products are quite prominent
19:33:24 <Cydrobolt> perhaps the right part of the navbar can be improved
19:33:47 <Cydrobolt> the text looks a bit too small compared to the total height of the navbar
19:35:06 <robyduck> mizmo: so we can think about having one of your rows with 3 columns?
19:35:44 <mizmo> robyduck, absolutely
19:35:50 <robyduck> cool
19:36:22 <mizmo> Cydrobolt, its just a rough mockup, its not meant for detailed visual styling so font sizes / etc completely variable and loose (if that makes sense)
19:36:35 <robyduck> but we will need also a navbar, you know that, right?
19:36:39 <Cydrobolt> ah, okay
19:36:44 <Cydrobolt> What do you mean?
19:37:05 <robyduck> s/navbar/navmenu
19:37:07 <mizmo> robyduck, navbar to go where on which page? (www.fpo or www.fpo/$PRODUCT ?)
19:37:20 <robyduck> in the header
19:37:38 <mizmo> but for what purpose, right?
19:37:54 <robyduck> I don't think we are able to have an easy navigation between all the pages without a navigation menu
19:38:19 <mizmo> robyduck, well let's walk through an example use case you're worried about
19:38:39 <mizmo> theres a few levels here -
19:38:41 <robyduck> we will have many other pages, verify, alternative dl, public cloud, hubs, etc...
19:38:46 <mizmo> #1 www.fpo => picking a specific product
19:39:00 <robyduck> ok
19:39:00 <mizmo> #2 www.fpo/$PRODUCT => navigating within product
19:39:07 <Cydrobolt> Like a breadcrumbs?
19:39:10 <mizmo> #3 www.fpo/$PRODUCT/$ACTION => downloading, etc
19:39:30 <robyduck> yes, or returnung back, and there is the fedora logo as HOME
19:39:44 <mizmo> so for #1, you click on the product of interest. if you want to go back to www.fpo you hit back or click fedora logo in upper right. if you want to try different product, you can go back to www.fpo and back down (back to hub and down spoke) or click on other product name further down page
19:39:58 <robyduck> what if you are in the alternative download page and want to go to server main page?
19:40:01 <sadin> breadcrumbs do seem like theyd help
19:40:16 <robyduck> no, breadcrumbs don't help
19:40:18 <mizmo> for #2, if you're on say www.fpo/workstation and you want to download it, you go down to level #3. at that point, once we're at level #3, we can add some nav within the product... about / tour / download
19:40:34 <ryanlerch> i thought the idea here was to have somthing super-shallow in structure. not sure if we need breadcrumbs
19:40:36 <mizmo> i think that answered your last question robyduck?
19:40:42 <mizmo> it's only 3 levels deep i think
19:40:51 <mizmo> i think we shouldn't do the same thing we do with downloads today -
19:40:58 <robyduck> mmmhh
19:40:59 <mizmo> i think all downlaods should just be on one downloads page per product
19:41:00 <mizmo> so we'd have
19:41:17 <mizmo> www.fpo/workstation/download    vs www.fpo/server/download   vs www.fpo/cloud/download
19:41:28 <mizmo> and depending on the product different download methods could be promoted as appropriate
19:41:33 <Cydrobolt> Bootstrap offers a breadcrumbs module
19:41:48 <sadin> i think hes pretty much against the breadcrumbs idea
19:42:02 <sadin> while you are right Cydrobolt
19:42:05 <sadin> about the module
19:42:12 <sijis> mizmo: what else do you see in the 3rd level, besides download (aka $ACTION)
19:42:15 <mizmo> breadcrumbs are good for really deep sites but this is just a borchure
19:42:16 <Cydrobolt> Something supershallow?
19:42:23 <mizmo> sijis, the tour
19:42:33 <mizmo> i could quickly sketch up a rough example site map
19:42:40 <mizmo> textually
19:42:45 <Cydrobolt> You can have simple "back" "workstation" "cloud" etc links
19:42:46 <mizmo> level #1 is www.fpo/
19:42:50 <Cydrobolt> rather than a full breadcrumbs module
19:43:00 <robyduck> mizmo: if I want to do from workstation to design-hub and back to server I can't do that without a navigation menu
19:43:02 <mizmo> level #2 is /workstation   /server    /cloud  and maybe a /help
19:43:10 <robyduck> s/do/go
19:43:14 <mizmo> level #3 is download    tour    about <= points to main product page
19:43:22 <sijis> so its something like this: $SITE-L1/$PRODUCT-L2/$ACTION-l3
19:43:29 <ryanlerch> let's try to figure out a sctructure before thinking about how to navigate it
19:43:34 <mizmo> sijis, yep you go it roughly
19:43:58 <sadin> not as deep as i thought it would go
19:43:59 <ryanlerch> mizmo, that seems sane to me
19:44:01 <sadin> nice
19:44:14 <Emichan> nice, predictable paths
19:44:29 <sijis> so, help is l2 or l3? fp.o/product/help or fp.o/help
19:44:37 <mizmo> help is l2 i *think* ?
19:44:53 <mizmo> the original master plan (which is of course flexible and no problem to change) was to have a fedora-wide help portal
19:45:21 <mizmo> something like stackoverflow or getsatisfaction... maybe some kind of revamp of ask.fpo
19:45:22 <sijis> that's resonable
19:45:25 <mizmo> but user-centric
19:45:57 <robyduck> shaiton: what's your thought?
19:45:59 <mattdm> yes! :)
19:46:17 <ryanlerch> +1 to a better ask.fpo
19:46:22 <sijis> i can't tell.. but we decided to do dropdown for nav to other products or was that shot down? (it seems breadcrums are out)
19:47:03 * shaiton reading last lines
19:47:06 <mizmo> sijis, i personally don't think it makes sense to have nav to other products beyond the large callouts on the bottom referring to them but i'm willing to be convinced
19:47:08 <robyduck> sijis: look on the header here. Is that too much?
19:47:10 <robyduck> http://stg.fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora
19:47:14 <mizmo> sijis, where i think we need nav is on level 3
19:47:20 <sijis> also, any thought on internalization for those pages?
19:47:40 <robyduck> sijis: yes, same as before
19:48:14 <sijis> mizmo: by bottom, you are NOT saying footer, i guess
19:48:22 <mizmo> sijis, oh no, it's one of the horizontal bar thingys
19:48:30 <mizmo> it'll be all fancy and whatever
19:48:34 <mizmo> its hard to tell because its such a simple mockup
19:48:43 * shaiton likes the idea of predictable path. But still if we can have a big simple download button for some product pages…
19:48:51 <sijis> ohh. i see .. Server | cloud
19:49:05 <mizmo> shaiton, well lets talk about this
19:49:19 <mizmo> i could see how 64 bit iso might be a good default download for workstation right
19:49:26 <mizmo> are there obvious default downloads for cloud and server?
19:49:28 <robyduck> yes
19:49:42 <ryanlerch> mattdm, not for cloud, right?
19:49:51 <ryanlerch> is there an obvious default?
19:49:54 <mizmo> cuz we could always do [ download now ]  _more options_ kind of thing
19:49:58 <robyduck> for server yes, for cloud .... mattdm?
19:50:04 <mattdm> hold on typing :)
19:50:24 <sijis> those download options are determined by the product and are tailored to it
19:50:25 <mattdm> I think that the plan was for there not to be an obvious choice, but the way it's coming out, there kind of is.
19:50:47 <mattdm> I think that Atomic is going to be _ready_, but not quite there for being the primary push
19:50:55 <mattdm> and bigdata and other images _aren't_ ready
19:51:05 <mattdm> which leaves us with the options we have on the prerelease page
19:51:23 <mattdm> and it makes sense to make the x86_64 cloud base image be primary, basically
19:51:39 <mattdm> although I'm not sure if we should emphasize downloadable qcow2 or launchable-in-ec2
19:52:11 <mattdm> On the plus side, I think the audience for cloud images is prepared for it to be a bit of a "choose your own adventure"
19:52:27 <shaiton> agree sijis, this should be defined by the poduct team
19:52:51 <shaiton> (and desktop is where we get new contributors actually, isn't it?)
19:53:01 <robyduck> yes
19:53:12 <sijis> prerelease.. i assume by product as well? last i understand each product would have it own release schedule
19:53:24 <sijis> so something like fp.o/$product/prerelease?
19:54:29 <sijis> mattdm: since there's no suggested option... we just list by alphabetically or something arbritary.. im' just guessing
19:54:59 <mattdm> sijis: No, I think there's a logical ordering...
19:56:36 <robyduck> mizmo: I don't like the idea to have a navigation in level 3 and nothing in level 2, what's the problem with a short menu?
19:57:06 <mattdm> Cloud Base vs. Atomic is the main split (with cloud base top choice for f21). Then, download or launch (even weight). If downloading, qcow2 default over raw.xz, and x86_64 over i386; if launching, currently we only have ec2, and then... same arch split, and ideally prefer region by geoip
19:58:46 <Emichan> mizmo, imo the main use case for nav between products would be users exploring the different options - go from tour to tour, etc - having to back all the way out is doable, but not great
19:59:00 <robyduck> mizmo: and we have docker too, so there is really much stuff to bring in and to promote in an easy to understanding way
19:59:20 <robyduck> I saw many bootstrap sites, and they are nice, but *all* need a nav
19:59:31 <mizmo> Emichan, but they definitely wouldnt have to back out and down, because each product links to the other two
19:59:55 <Emichan> mizmo, on the bottom, though? that's a bit unexpected
19:59:56 <mizmo> robyduck, i think it's redundant with the buttons
20:00:00 <robyduck> yes, the main product page
20:00:06 <robyduck> not the others
20:00:12 <mizmo> Emichan, these are brochure sites..... user is expecting to scroll down, its the main mechanism for this style
20:00:50 <mizmo> robyduck, by main product page - do you mean www.fpo or www.fpo/$PRODUCT ?
20:01:01 <robyduck> www.fpo/$PRODUCT
20:01:12 <Emichan> mizmo, the user expects to scroll, absolutely, but I don't think they expect top-level navigation on the bottom
20:02:56 <Emichan> mizmo, to be clear, i'm not necessarily advocating for a top navbar, just want to point out that not having one means we maybe won't serve the "explore" use case all that well
20:04:14 <robyduck> I feel the same
20:05:24 <mizmo> Emichan, robyduck i dont see any reason why we couldn't optimize the descriptions / links about each product on the front of www.fpo to support exploration
20:05:34 <mizmo> while leaving the individual brochures more focused
20:05:54 <mizmo> eg no reason why would couldn't link to tour for each from the boxes for each on the front of www.fpo
20:06:05 <mizmo> or even have a video or something on the front that talks about the differences between the three
20:06:11 <Emichan> mizmo, yep, and I think that's a good idea
20:06:13 <mizmo> i mean its not like we're price comparison shopping or something
20:06:22 <mizmo> it's like, do you want a minivan, a ferrari, or a mini cooper
20:06:31 <mizmo> nobody comparison shops between these two things
20:06:37 <mizmo> they simply want to know what each is meant for
20:06:38 <Emichan> mizmo, what if i want all three? ;)
20:07:00 <robyduck> mizmo: you are thinking only about a single product, one way direction
20:07:05 <mizmo> <witty retort> ;-)
20:07:06 <robyduck> mizmo: it's not that
20:07:34 <robyduck> new users want to explore, they don't come and get the car they like more
20:07:54 <robyduck> and they want to look into the hubs, take all tours probably and then decide
20:08:39 <robyduck> and if I have a website which is not easy to navigate, I don't even like its product
20:10:11 <mizmo> let me explain why i mocked it up this way
20:10:16 <mizmo> im not saying its the only way to go
20:10:23 <ryanlerch> robyduck, i think the question here is will someone actaully want to navigate *easily* between Workstation & Cloud?
20:10:25 <mizmo> but part of the point behind the three products i think is to decouple them from each other
20:10:35 <mizmo> so they can have individual identities and make individual decisions best for their unique users
20:10:46 <mizmo> i think a good way to do that is to more loosely pull them together
20:10:58 <mizmo> right now the different fedora options on www.fpo are very tightly bound
20:11:01 <ryanlerch> it's like someone going shopping for a bike, and wondering why they can't buy an excavator at the bike store
20:11:07 <mizmo> ryanlerch, +1 exactly
20:11:13 <sadin> ryanlerch, +1
20:11:20 <Emichan> ryanlerch, not quite - there's valid reasons to want to learn about all three
20:11:48 <mizmo> i think someone looking from a cloud linux distro is going to look between fedoraproject.org/cloud and ubuntu.com/cloud and who knows coreos.com
20:11:54 <Emichan> i want fedora workstation to develop on, fedora server to run my devenv, fedora cloud for my aws deployment
20:12:12 <sadin> Emichan, there are valid reasons but is the entry level user who is after the workstation going to be looking right away to deploy fedora in the cloud?
20:12:42 <sadin> What youre saying is true
20:12:46 <Emichan> or i want fedora, i'm going to do development, and run some basic server-type stuff - should I use server or workstation?
20:12:48 <sadin> but that doesnt happen in one fell swoop
20:12:53 <ryanlerch> Emichan, there are, but are those people frequent enough to warrant a top level menu? i think that is the question here
20:12:59 <mizmo> i think thats a longer term conversion
20:13:05 <sadin> ^
20:13:32 <mizmo> im not going to buy all my furniture at one furniture store. im going to buy the couch and use it for a while, if it doesnt fall apart maybe i'll upgrade my dining room table with them later on once they've proven themselves
20:13:34 <Emichan> well, i guess my question is, what is the downside to a top navbar? too much complexity?
20:13:55 <mizmo> i think the better way to look at it is that the main point of the borchures is to be as simple stupid as possible
20:14:13 <robyduck> mizmo: why are you against a nav menu?
20:14:25 <Emichan> well, simple is only as good as it serves the users
20:14:34 <mizmo> robyduck, because i dont want the different products bound together that tightly
20:14:49 <mizmo> we want the products to stand on their own
20:15:11 <robyduck> ok, and how do want us to put the stuff we have to add in the pages without any menu?
20:15:24 <Emichan> mizmo, how is a navbar binding the products together more than links on the bottom?
20:15:34 <robyduck> think only about cloud, verufy, ARM, docker, alternative DL, and and and
20:15:49 <robyduck> its not just product -> description -> download
20:16:16 <mizmo> Emichan, it's more binding if its colocated with the branding
20:16:52 <sadin> robyduck thats actually exactly what a brochure site is.
20:16:57 <mizmo> robyduck, by cloud do you mean the cloud product? that's www.fpo/cloud
20:17:04 <robyduck> yes
20:17:10 <mizmo> robyduck, verify can pop up as the download splash, the way we do now on get.fpo
20:17:11 <Emichan> mizmo, sorry, i'm still not sure i'm understanding you - binding in what way?
20:17:19 <mizmo> robyduck, arm will be one of the options on www.fpo/product/download
20:17:23 <robyduck> mizmo: you said you wanted it like mozilla, and they *have* a menu
20:17:30 <mizmo> guys
20:17:33 <mizmo> why are you fighting me
20:17:38 <mizmo> i can't deal with aggression right now
20:17:44 <mizmo> i can't do this
20:18:08 <robyduck> mizmo: because I have no clue how to work on this putting all the things together. Arm is not just a link, there are 7-8 images
20:18:16 <mizmo> robyduck, docker only applies to the cloud product right? so it would be www.fpo/cloud/download <= one of the options on there
20:18:28 <mizmo> robyduck, alternative DLs are going to be on www.fpo/product/download page for each one
20:18:29 <robyduck> and they should go outside of the fedora/PRODUCT page
20:18:47 <robyduck> yes, indeed
20:18:51 <mizmo> robyduck, can you list out all the arm images?
20:18:51 <Emichan> mizmo, apologies if i came across as aggressive - just trying to understand your pov
20:19:17 <mizmo> robyduck, the vast majority of arm images at get.fpo are spins. not the main fedora
20:19:20 * Emichan is also multitasking, so maybe not communicating as well as possible
20:19:27 <mizmo> so they should be at spins.fpo. they shouldn't be on www.fpo
20:19:44 <robyduck> http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-spin-prerelease#arm
20:19:59 <mizmo> kde, kfce, mate, soas, and minimal are all spins aren't they
20:20:03 <mizmo> so only workstation would apply?
20:20:06 <robyduck> mizmo: yes, but we have them on fpo, not on spins
20:20:19 <mizmo> can we move them to spins?
20:20:22 <mizmo> the ones that are spins?
20:20:23 <ryanlerch> robyduck, but they arent part of a product?
20:20:44 <robyduck> workstation yes
20:20:50 <mizmo> Emichan, when you literally tack things onto the branding area it does bind a lot more tightly than pushing them further down the page
20:21:00 <ryanlerch> there is an ARM image for workstation?
20:21:04 <robyduck> yes
20:21:23 <mizmo> Emichan, it would be like me introducing myself as marty and brian's sister rather than introducing myself as mo and further into the conversation mentioning i have brothers named marty and brian
20:21:24 <ryanlerch> then it will be one of the 3 choices in the download page for workstation
20:21:44 <robyduck> you see there is so much to fit into that pages, it's not easy to do without a menu, I saw this when I did the pre-release pages we have actually
20:21:47 <mizmo> Emichan, defining myself based on who my siblings are vs defining myself on my terms and mentioning other relationships later on
20:22:10 <mizmo> robyduck, would you feel better about this if i did the detailed mockups for the downloads pages of each product?
20:22:20 <mizmo> and a mockup showing where the arm images go on the spins pages?
20:23:31 <robyduck> mizmo: it's not a problem adding a link to the spins page, but my concern of all this is that it need to be usable for everyone. Not just, I go there and want the arm workstation, or docker, or server 64 bit
20:24:50 <mizmo> i dont know that people think in terms of 'i want arm anything'
20:24:51 <robyduck> and between all the product stuff we also will have hubs
20:25:08 <mizmo> i think probably we wont have much for the hubs site for f21 so i wouldn't stress about that too much
20:25:34 <mizmo> i think its better to make the new website really awesome and push off the hubs until after f21 ga
20:25:46 * robyduck wanted to do at least 2 hubs with the main data you had in your mockup, and without any login
20:26:05 <robyduck> using datagrepper
20:26:31 <ryanlerch> AIUI, the idea behind the 3 products was to simplify what we deliver. The website really needs to also follow that mantra, IMHO
20:26:43 <ryanlerch> only deliver what the WGs see as deliverables.
20:26:56 <mizmo> robyduck, that seems reasonable
20:27:03 <robyduck> ryanlerch: simplify yes, and easy to navigate is "simplify"
20:27:08 <ryanlerch> for Workstation, AFAIK, it is 32bit and 64bit workstation
20:27:22 <mizmo> robyduck, would it help if ryanlerch and i prototyped the brochure websites so you had the time to focus on the hub stuff?
20:28:33 <ryanlerch> easy to navigate is good, but if it leads me not where i want to go...
20:28:35 <robyduck> why not, your decision
20:28:54 <robyduck> he?
20:29:28 <robyduck> ryanlerch: I want the menu to lead me where I want to go
20:29:58 <mizmo> i feel like we're getting hung up on small things that would shake out when we do a prototype and can feel how it works
20:30:32 <ryanlerch> mizmo, +1
20:31:23 <ryanlerch> robyduck, if we get some prototypes done, we can see how it feels?
20:31:34 <robyduck> well you already decided
20:31:43 <robyduck> we also need the language selector
20:31:50 <robyduck> RTL css
20:32:26 * robyduck can't test it, but this is the best I found: https://github.com/morteza/bootstrap-rtl
20:33:03 * shaiton has to leave, sorry and thanks
20:33:12 <robyduck> see you shaiton
20:33:46 <mizmo> robyduck, it's just the idea for this mockup. if we want to do something different i think it should be designed pretty differently
20:34:05 <mizmo> if the way this is set up doesnt work we can try a different design
20:34:18 <robyduck> we don't have the time to change again
20:34:22 <mizmo> robyduck, whatever we do i want you to be happy with this as you put in so much work on the website
20:35:18 <mizmo> robyduck, this mockup took me 45 minutes so i can put together many more :)
20:35:20 * robyduck is not happy, but you and Ryan already decided. I'm just a volunteer, so...
20:35:46 <mizmo> robyduck, okay i want you to be happy
20:35:52 <mizmo> we didnt already decide anything i want to make that clear
20:36:16 <mizmo> this is just a specific idea... i dont think adding a menu to this as-is would work because it was designed with a specific idea in mind
20:36:20 <robyduck> mizmo: I don't have any problem, can do the hub
20:36:27 <mizmo> so let's talk about what we want out of the borchures
20:36:40 <mizmo> do we want the products to be something people jump between and are tied more closely together?
20:36:58 <mizmo> what are the goals we have
20:37:25 <robyduck> mizmo: I rewrote the whole f.next staging because the initial mockup has the same problem, I wasn't able to make the pages easy to navigate without having to click 4 times instead of 1
20:38:12 <mizmo> robyduck, theres a lot of different paths users can take thoguh right? but some are more important than others. which are the most important ones we have to support?
20:38:12 <robyduck> no, the products are pretty separated, and my idea was also to have different "alternative download" pages if needed to keep them separated
20:38:13 <ryanlerch> in my mind the goals are: 1. Show the 3 products. 2. Show details for each of the products 3. Download the deliverables for each of the three products (as defined by the WGs)
20:39:02 <robyduck> ryanlerch: yes, that's what I'm sayingm you don't think about the other pages
20:39:13 <mizmo> but not all pages are created equal right?
20:39:20 <robyduck> these steps are only a part
20:39:24 <robyduck> right
20:39:27 <mizmo> i dont want to fall into the trap of treating them all equally important
20:39:31 <robyduck> they are *very* different
20:39:45 <mizmo> so maybe we can break out different tiers of importance right
20:40:04 <robyduck> yes, and workstation can be prominent IMHO
20:40:16 <mizmo> so i think we agree product selection / product details / main downlaods are tier I importance
20:40:23 <mizmo> what are the tier II things we're missing?
20:41:28 <robyduck> alterntive downloads (are not main downoads), checksums, help, docker (is not cloud), hubs
20:41:53 <robyduck> magazine?
20:42:11 <mizmo> magazine isn't linked to at all from current www.fpo except for banner ad
20:42:12 <robyduck> I'd love to have a link somewhere
20:42:14 <mizmo> yeh
20:42:15 <mizmo> makes sense
20:42:16 <mizmo> okay
20:42:24 <mizmo> so let's talk about this one by one
20:42:52 <mizmo> so the alternative downloads, they can't live on the individual product > download pages?
20:43:36 <robyduck> mizmo: speaking with WGs they wanted to have one main DL button
20:43:56 <robyduck> the rest could go in a separate page, for each product
20:44:01 <mizmo> robyduck, sure and we can do that with the 'download now' button on www.fpo/$PRODUCT and have an 'other options' link that goes to www.fpo/$PRODUCT/download
20:44:10 <robyduck> yes
20:44:26 <mizmo> so we can give each product an option. they can have a one click download + more options or they can have just one button to download
20:44:38 <robyduck> +1
20:45:09 <mizmo> okay that makes sense?
20:45:25 <mizmo> so checksums... can we have those available on the product download pages too?
20:45:33 <mizmo> or do we want a fedora-wide checksums page?
20:45:56 <mizmo> because right now we have a fedora-wide one.
20:45:58 <robyduck> yes, but tell me how do you want to go back from www.fpo/$PRODUCT/download to another page without a small navugation menu?
20:46:21 <mizmo> well are we talking about navigation or are we talking about tier 2 content right now
20:46:36 <robyduck> we can have a fedora wide one, or we can also put them directly into the www.fpo/$PRODUCT/download page, as they are product related
20:46:52 <mizmo> if i land on www.fpo/$product/download where else would i want to go
20:47:13 <robyduck> I could say, no, that's not what I wanted, let me look at server
20:47:31 <mizmo> why would you click on download and decide then that's not what you wanted?
20:47:41 <mizmo> wouldn't you decide you didn't want it at www.fpo/$PRODUCT ?
20:48:16 <robyduck> I dont know at that point what I could get as alternative download
20:48:39 <mizmo> robyduck, why would the download format drive your choice?
20:48:45 <mizmo> like what's an example scenario?
20:48:55 <mizmo> what are yout rying to do when you end up there?
20:49:22 <robyduck> we shouldn't think to know what people should do, we need to give them a way back or a shortcut to another page
20:49:47 <mizmo> does it make sense to provide a path that is not needed though?
20:49:51 <mizmo> i'm not saying whether or not its needed
20:50:04 <mizmo> but im think it's important to think about what people would want to do, to make sure we support that the best
20:50:19 <robyduck> ok let me do an example
20:50:20 <mizmo> and not make the site too complex by trying to anticipate and accommodate any possible thing
20:50:21 <mizmo> okay
20:50:23 <mizmo> examples really help
20:50:28 <Emichan> mizmo, one example i can think of - especially new users, and this being the first .next release - i want kde, go to workstation -> other options, no kde -> spins
20:50:42 <mizmo> Emichan, would a new user really come in and say i want kde?
20:50:49 <robyduck> I could go to server and wanting an image for my VM on the server. But they aren't there, they are under cloud. I need to go back to the home (or product) and go to cloud.
20:50:51 <Emichan> new to fedora, not to linux?
20:51:06 <mizmo> Emichan, google.com => "fedora kde" is how such a person would go no
20:51:31 <mizmo> robyduck, theres not going to be server VMs?
20:51:44 <robyduck> AFAIK no
20:51:45 <mizmo> robyduck, there i think the problem is with the product not offering what the user needed
20:51:58 <mizmo> if server users need a VM, if that's useful to them, then we should provide a server VM
20:52:07 <mizmo> giving them a cloud VM isn't going to solve the server problem they are trying to solve
20:52:09 <Emichan> mizmo, yes, that's true - could be useful to get some current website analytics, and see what paths people currently take to get downloads
20:53:56 <robyduck> mizmo: and also many people wouldn't know all the images, we will have descriptions of cloud images, or server, and most users will need to read them first I think
20:54:32 <mizmo> robyduck, i feel though that people shouldn't make a decision about which product to use based on the download formats available but rather what product is actually right for them
20:55:05 * sijis thinks checksums should be per-product
20:55:13 <robyduck> sijis: +1
20:55:29 <mizmo> yehi think that makes sense, per product checksums. i think it would be easier to use
20:56:01 <robyduck> we have too many chcksums already, separating them makes it easier and people will also find them easier
20:56:19 <sijis> yup
20:56:29 <mizmo> +1
20:56:43 <sijis> i don't see this being mentioned... what about existing links.. where should they go to?
20:57:05 <robyduck> sijis: you mean external links?
20:57:19 <robyduck> bookmarks?
20:57:20 <sijis> like .. fp.o/pre-release, or fp.o/get-fedora
20:57:34 <mizmo> we could maybe assume redirects to workstatin
20:58:07 <robyduck> not to get.fpo?
20:58:24 <sijis> get.fpo goes to fp.o/get-fedora
20:58:28 <sijis> right?
20:58:30 <robyduck> yes
20:58:40 <robyduck> which is the brochure
20:58:44 <sijis> mizmo: i sorta agree but also disagree.
20:58:50 <sijis> maybe it should just end up at fp.o
20:58:56 <robyduck> sijis: question would be: fpo would go to get.fpo :)
20:59:41 <sijis> folks did use fedora as servers too.. and they ended up in the same place as 'workstation' users
21:00:00 <sijis> maybe, they don't relaize we've changed our 'offerings' and there is now a specific server one
21:00:14 <sijis> instead, they would go to desktop and continue using that as a server
21:00:32 <robyduck> that's why I said the main brochure
21:01:07 <sijis> ah. maybe there was a a typo?
21:01:32 <sijis> "fpo would go to get.fpo" .. should that have been "get.fpo would go to fpo"
21:02:13 <robyduck> uhmm, no, we said get.fpo would be the brochure (landing page)
21:02:27 <sijis> that's not the same as fp.o?
21:02:27 <robyduck> don't know what mizmo thinks about that
21:02:33 <robyduck> no
21:02:39 <sijis> oh. must have missed that
21:02:47 <robyduck> we would abandone fpo
21:02:54 <robyduck> or better redirect it
21:03:47 <sijis> is start.fp.o part of this too?
21:04:10 <sijis> or is the something different altogether
21:04:14 <robyduck> it's a separate task
21:04:31 <robyduck> sijis: https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/334
21:06:04 <robyduck> mizmo: still there?
21:06:13 <mizmo> robyduck, i am sorry, im on a conference call too
21:06:18 <robyduck> oh
21:06:41 <sadin> im out, gotta leave for work. was very cool to finally sit in on a meeting. Thanks all.
21:06:42 <sijis> i was earlier.. which is why i had late questions :)
21:06:51 <robyduck> eheh
21:06:52 <sijis> sadin: anytime. thanks
21:06:59 <robyduck> what about the language selector?
21:07:09 <robyduck> sadin: cheers
21:07:18 <sadin> mizmo where can i find these logs later?
21:07:22 <sijis> robyduck: as i understood, it stays the same
21:07:24 <mizmo> sadin, meetboot is recording
21:07:41 <sadin> mizmo okay
21:07:41 <robyduck> yes, or we can use https://translatewiki.net/
21:07:51 <mizmo> okay off the call
21:07:54 <robyduck> but where do we want to put it?
21:07:55 * mizmo read backscroll
21:07:55 <sijis> http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-websites/2014-10-14/
21:08:07 <sijis> sadin: ^
21:08:19 <mizmo> oaky
21:08:27 <mizmo> so i've been using www.fpo as example link but
21:08:39 <mizmo> the brochure pages i think the idea was they would live somewhere like getfedora.org
21:08:42 <mizmo> instead of fpo.org
21:08:46 <mizmo> and the hubs would be at fpo.org
21:08:53 <mizmo> er www.fpo
21:09:00 <sadin> sijis thanks
21:09:03 * sadin out
21:09:24 <robyduck> mizmo: fpo/design, fpo/ambassadors etc
21:09:31 <mizmo> robyduck, yep exactly!
21:09:32 <robyduck> correct?
21:09:53 <sijis> ohh. new domain
21:10:01 <mizmo> so anything that's currently a www.fpo link, it might make sense to redirect to getfedora.org
21:10:11 <robyduck> yes, right
21:10:14 <mizmo> we were thinking of kind of reusing www.fpo for the hubs
21:10:21 <sijis> getfpo/$PRODUCT/$ACTION ??
21:10:24 <mizmo> exactly
21:10:37 <sijis> ahh. makes sense
21:11:16 <mizmo> for the translation dropdown, robyduck - i think we can keep in the same spot, upper right, i can pop it back into mockups
21:11:30 <robyduck> in the header?
21:11:43 <mizmo> yeh i think so - either at very top of header, or maybe just below
21:11:45 <mizmo> on the right side
21:11:49 <mizmo> lemme do a quick mockup to show you
21:12:06 <robyduck> no I'm fine with it
21:12:15 <mizmo> okay
21:12:22 <mizmo> just somewhere in the upper right corner i think makes sense
21:12:27 <mizmo> whether it's top of header or bottom of header
21:13:13 <robyduck> not in the header
21:13:25 <ryanlerch> robyduck, mizmo a lot of sites have it in the footer now ive noticed
21:13:40 <robyduck> hmm
21:14:10 <robyduck> well it's true that 95% of the users won't touch it because it gets the language from the browser
21:15:04 <robyduck> ok, let's see where it fits better
21:16:44 * sijis is indifferent on location
21:16:55 <sijis> i have seen most on bottom footer lately
21:17:06 <mizmo> maybe bottom footer makes sense then
21:17:10 <robyduck> ok
21:17:48 <robyduck> mizmo: ryanlerch: sijis: shaiton (away): we should distribute the workload now, or are there other topics?
21:18:20 <mizmo> robyduck, are you feeling better about this or are you still unhappy?
21:18:24 <mizmo> i dont want to force anything at all
21:18:58 <mizmo> eg for the download case,
21:19:07 <mizmo> we could add a horizontal bar on the download page, something like,
21:19:27 <mizmo> "Is this not what you are looking for? Check out the download pages for $OTHER_PRODUCT_1 and $OTHER_PRODUCT_2"
21:19:39 <mizmo> i mean
21:19:42 <sijis> guys. i have to get going. i will read the rest later tonight
21:19:45 <mizmo> there are different things we can do if we test it out
21:19:52 <mizmo> i gotta run soon too to pick up my daughter
21:20:00 <sijis> if someone could bulletpoint with #task or #item that would be awesome.. from a summary perspective
21:20:05 <robyduck> see you sijis and thanks for coming, hope to see you soon ;)
21:20:14 <sijis> anytime :)
21:20:29 * sijis don't forget #endmeeting
21:20:30 <sijis> :)
21:20:35 <robyduck> haha
21:20:40 <robyduck> yes
21:21:26 <robyduck> mizmo: it's not from one DL to another, but up to another product or hubs
21:21:52 * robyduck also wanted to have a page (under ambassadors maybe) for events, to get with fedocal
21:22:11 <mizmo> im confused
21:22:16 <robyduck> but let's not go back to this
21:22:18 <mizmo> are we talking about getfedora.org or the hubs at www.fpo
21:22:35 <mizmo> getfedora.org is just meant to be focused on the products, right? not the community / events / etc
21:22:39 <mizmo> right? or are we not on the same page there
21:23:20 <robyduck> it would be better to have them on the same page probably
21:23:38 <mizmo> are you suggesting to merge the hubs with the borchure website?
21:23:42 <robyduck> new users will also see community hubs and getting interested
21:23:57 <mizmo> they can visit the community hubs without it being the same website
21:24:03 <robyduck> yes, I thought we would have this (and my mockup has it togehter)
21:24:06 <mizmo> i feel that if we merge the two, why not just keep the same fedoraproject.org that we have
21:24:13 <mizmo> because that is the same thing with a different coat of paint
21:24:34 <mizmo> i didnt know we were changing the plan so drastically
21:25:00 <robyduck> no probably I understood it the worng way when we started, I didn't want to change it
21:25:09 <mizmo> lemme find the link
21:25:10 <robyduck> s/worng/wrong
21:25:42 <mizmo> well i mean this is pretty accurate you know https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Robyduck/fedora.next-websites
21:26:05 <mizmo> it's just that the main borchure is getfedora.org, the product pages => product brochures (getfedora.org/$PRODUCT), and then the community hub is www.fpo (and events should be hooked into that)
21:26:37 <robyduck> ok
21:27:12 <mizmo> blog.linuxgrrl.com/2014/04/01/a-proposal-for-fedoras-website-considering-fedora-next/
21:27:17 <mizmo> that was the original plan
21:27:36 <robyduck> yup, but I don't know why but I merged them...in my mind
21:27:43 <robyduck> :)
21:27:56 <mizmo> you see at the top of the whiteboard we started with the people, and thought we should make places specifically for users to keep it simple and to make sure they get information that isn't too technical / involved / contributor-specific
21:28:19 <robyduck> yes
21:28:28 <mizmo> is this making more sense now?
21:29:30 <robyduck> yes, separating them yes, do you still want a login there?
21:29:49 <mizmo> i think no login on getfedora.org, but there should definitely be a login for fedoraproject.org
21:29:53 <mizmo> for the hubs
21:30:58 <robyduck> mmmh, difference between logged in and not? We shouldn't hide the content od the hub IMHO
21:31:13 <robyduck> you said same as twitter or so
21:31:24 <robyduck> just a login form
21:31:49 <robyduck> but we are an open community, we should have most of the informations free accessible
21:33:03 <mizmo> robyduck, the idea i had was you can read if you have the link to read
21:33:17 <mizmo> so if someone gives you a link to fedoraproject.org/design, of course you can read it without login
21:33:24 <mizmo> but i think if you go to fedoraproject.org it makes no sense
21:33:30 <mizmo> you need to login to see anything of use
21:34:12 <mizmo> i really must run :( i have to pick up my daughter
21:34:14 <mizmo> im late :(
21:34:18 <mizmo> im going to endmeeting okay?
21:34:22 <robyduck> ok
21:34:24 <mizmo> #endmeeting