18:03:00 #startmeeting Fedora ask me anything - Telegram edition 18:03:00 Meeting started Wed May 6 18:03:00 2020 UTC. 18:03:00 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 18:03:00 The chair is siddharthvipul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:03:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:03:00 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_ask_me_anything_-_telegram_edition' 18:03:17 Arun Mani reporting in ^^ 18:03:20 Marie and I will have to take off at 3 for an important meeting. I'll try to make the hour we do have intense and answer-filled :) 18:03:25 Okay, now we ca start. 18:04:02 Firstly, thanks again for taking the time to come and answer questions from the community. Really appreciated. 18:04:32 Of course! Fedora _is_ the community, so we wouldn't be here without all of you. 18:04:32 I'll start straight away with the first question. 18:05:05 Ondřej (@h​arrymichal) has joined the Telegram Group! 18:05:13 So the first question is 18:05:13 What brought you to Fedora? 18:06:11 ! (do we raise hands to answer? :)) 18:06:14 Oh, this turns out to be a "ooh, so back in the day..." question for me. I was a user of Red Hat Linux back before Red Hat hit on the enterprise strategy which turned the company from hoping to make money selling t-shirts to a real big business.... 18:06:29 yeah is that question directed at someone? 18:06:29 Or simply send your message. 😃 18:06:32 თორნიკე (@T​ornikepa) has joined the Telegram Group! 18:06:42 No, it's for everyone 18:06:51 I'll let @mattdm finish :) 18:06:53 👍 18:06:58 am I mute here? 18:07:01 ... And I was working at Boston University at the time, and we made a downstream distribution based on Red Hat Linux. When that went away, and Fedora was the replacement, I got involved with the early project community. 18:07:12 rber: nope 18:07:33 I'll let someone else give their story! 18:07:35 thanks pingou 18:07:45 Great! Thank you! 18:07:46 my apologies, I need to step afk for a few minutes unexpectedly ... I'll be back ASAP 18:07:50 dustymabe: do you want to go next, and I can go after you? 18:08:03 also, I didn't get into the roster somehow, I still want to participate :) 18:08:06 I got a job as a sysadmin right out of college. I didn't have much admin experience, and since my department primarily ran RHEL, I started running Fedora at home to get more practice. This would have been around Fedora Core 6 or so. I started contributing to the docs team in 2009 because I wanted to give back and that was the best fit for my skills at the time. 18:08:43 Oh, sad. We'll miss you meanwhile! 18:08:44 I was interested in what Red Hat is doing.. Also was trying various distribution at that time.. At that time it was one of the distributions that had KDE 4.0 to try :) 18:08:49 For me it is much simpler, I have been using some other Linux distribution (ofc I'm not going to tell which one) and as any other people at that time, was having many problems with it... And after long time asking people in many other Linux communities, the Russian Fedora community was very helpful and helped me to solve them. 18:08:49 Also, it was first Linux distro where everything where everything in my laptop worked out of the box :) 18:08:51 And we're so thankful for that! 18:09:05 Personally I just kind of took over. I was hired by Red Hat to work on RHEL documentation, in a few months I was made responsible for the RHEL Installation guide, and the previous maintainer was also involved in Fedora docs. So I took over, including working on Fedora documentation. And then I transferred to a team that wanted someone to work on Fedora (and CentOS) docs full time :) 18:09:08 I have to admit I got to Fedora through the work at Red Hat (back in 2011), but it quickly got my heart and became my hobby reaching far outside my job. 18:09:18 What brought me to Fedora? I was brought to Fedora through CentOS! The company I worked for at the time built a platform on CentOS and I was amazed at how I could collaborately publicly upstream to get problems solved. However I wanted to implement new features! How do you do that? Fedora! I've been involved in Fedora for close to 6 years now. Loving every minute. 18:09:21 I was introduced to Fedora through folks I knew hanging out at the FOSSBox at Rochester Institute of Technology. Through that I came across a Fedora design internship with Outreachy. I completed the internship in March 2014, and have stayed involved ever since. 18:09:21 Igor +1 for helpful community! 18:09:27 Oh, nice! I remember KDE 3 & 4 18:09:42 pbokoc congrats ;-) 18:09:46 I started using Fedora around 2013-ish when I was distro-hoping a lot back then and it has been the only distro that didn't break terribly in the long run, so I stuck with that and started contributing after a while (around 2 years ago) 18:10:03 nothing too exciting behind that ;-) 18:10:12 LOL also +1 for "not breaking terribly in the long run" 18:10:31 I really didn't like KDE 3 (we were using it at the uni), but the shiny and new KDE 4.0 ;) 18:10:32 LOL yes 18:10:35 I started at undergrad. Back then we couldn't afford paying the licensing fees for proprietary software. So, the LUG started talking about FOSS, and how we could use tools and get our work done. Most of us were Computer Science students, and the idea of being able to learn and improve the code was a major attraction! At some point, Fedora-India did a packaging workshop where I learned to work 18:10:37 on font packaging. Not looked back since :D 18:11:06 Nice! Glad to see those workshops had such an impact. 18:11:28 For me it started when I attended the first OSCAL (Open Source Conference in Albania) and Giannis was speaking about Fedora. At the Fedora booth he gave me a DVD and I tried it out. I started as an Ambassador and speaking about Fedora at my local hackerspace :) 18:11:44 I started using Fedora back in Fedora Core 4 to help me with a small physic project for my uni, then got involved in the ambassadors, the packagers group and finally the infra 18:11:53 I had a love-hate relationship with KDE3, but let's not get into desktop chat :-P 18:11:59 Wow these stories are awesome! 18:12:03 Lots of other distributions were experimented with, of course, but I think the packaging workshop got quite a few of us in. Rahul Sundaram and Kushal Das were instrumental in mentoring and guiding us throughout. Then we did the FUDCon in India and met lots of community members which helped us cement our ideas. 18:12:06 (edited) I had a love-hate relationship with KDE3, but let's not get into desktop chatting :-P 18:12:14 Rami has joined the Telegram Group! 18:12:32 I'm looking forward to the days when we can have in-person outreach workshops again :) 18:13:04 Do we still do Fedora Test Days in the real life? Because that was basically how I got *involved* in the community :) 18:13:16 (I even had my 15 seconds of fame when I inadvertently started a flame war on -devel: featured in lwn: I have it bookmarked, proudest moment of my life: https://markmail.org/message/im5a2iddv22vd4fz) 18:13:33 LOL I'll read that later. 18:13:36 That's a good question... I hadn't see anything. 18:14:01 FranciscoD: 404 18:14:07 ah trailing ) 18:14:11 ugh, sorry :) 18:14:13 @ignatenkobrain I think they're all virtual. @riecatnor and I have been brainstorming ideas for "prepackaged small events" beyond release parties, and that's a good idea. 18:14:19 https://markmail.org/message/im5a2iddv22vd4fz 18:14:25 Again, once events are possible of course 18:14:32 @mattdm yes, for all those events, look at them all 18:14:37 lol 😂 18:14:41 Yes, obviously. 18:14:49 We are trying to do something for the Brno University of Techonology students with @sesivany .. But it's more of a "install fest".. 18:15:14 We have some new folks in Fedora Join restarting classrooms, so hopefully we'll have more of them in the future too. If you have ideas, do drop by #fedora-join or @joinfedora and tell us what you'd like to learn. 18:15:33 Now, if everyone answered the first question, we could move to the second one. 18:15:37 FranciscoD++ 18:15:37 pingou: Karma for ankursinha changed to 3 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:15:41 Fedora Classrooms is an awesome initiative! 18:15:51 Those Classrooms are great! 18:15:52 ooh can I do that across the bridge? 18:15:55 FranciscoD++ 18:16:02 I know! I've been very interested in the new one about IRC 101! 18:16:07 mattdm nope :( 18:16:10 mattdm: doesn't look like it 18:16:12 I think this shows how important interactions using any channel are :) 18:16:13 No, not across the bridge 18:16:16 ah another time then 18:16:20 FOLKS! 18:16:23 Please. 18:16:27 LOL. Yes, question please. 18:16:33 Don't get me wrong, but it's a long list of questions. 18:16:40 * FranciscoD gets off the table and sits back down 18:16:47 Let's get on with it then :) 18:16:58 * nasirhm waits for the questions :D 18:17:39 Okay, next question. It's related to the first one. 18:17:39 How Fedora was back then when you joined first? Where do you see Fedora going to in the near future? 18:18:14 The idea behind this question is making a bit of a comparison, relating the evolution of the project and the system itself from your personal point of view. 18:19:01 First question first: it was messy! Red Hat didn't know what they wanted, was just learning how to really interact with community, and the first few code releases weren't much better. But over the first few releases, things really came together. Within just a few years, Fedora 8 was a _great_ release. 18:19:18 Do not get me started on Fedora Core 4, though. :) 18:19:33 * FranciscoD tries to remember which one came first Sulphur or Spherical Cow 18:19:47 I'm not sure when I started, I'll have to go look at the releases 18:19:54 I don't think it was that popular at that time as it is now. With all the hard work of the community it changed. And also I would say it was not that stable, but that changed as well.. And the future? I think that it's bright :) we do have solid foundations to build on and improve the current state. 18:19:57 mattdm you didn't like manually unmounting your USB stick? 18:20:20 Back when I started using Fedora it was different: I was still using gnome 2 back then and getting a new Nvidia driver on my machine was always anti-fun. Not mentioning upgrades that always required burning a new DVD :(. All of this became a *ton* simpler over the years with dnf system-upgrade and rpmfusion. 18:20:49 oh, the number of bad dvd burns we had: not fun at all. 18:20:49 Where are we going in the near future? Growth! More options on the desktop -- in case you haven't seen, you'll be able to buy a Lenovo laptop which has Fedora preinstalled. Worldwide, and from their standard website as an alternative choice of OS. And exciting things in non-desktop platforms too, with Fedora IoT taking off and Fedora CoreOS available in more cloud platforms. 18:21:01 Lenovo <3 18:21:14 * FranciscoD just got a new Thinkpad! 18:21:14 Gosh, this one is hard to answer. Initially, I only paid attention to the Docs team, and my attention expanded pretty slowly up until the point that I became the program manager. Then it increased rapidly. 😊 I think the community generally does a better job of sticking to the Friends foundation these days. Mailing lists are much less contentious than they used to be. 18:21:14 The release I used as my daily driver was Fedora 14 and right after that Fedora 15 came, with GNOME 3.0 and systemd. A lot of changes and rapid development back then. 18:21:15 I'm quite happy it's become calmer, maybe even a bit boring, but boring is good here. I hope Fedora will keep improving and proving that you can have a quality and reliable and cutting edge distro at the same time. 18:21:29 I hope to see more specialized solution versions of Fedora too, reaching different communities of practice -- like the Computational Neuroscience Lab 18:21:32 (edited) The first release I used as my daily driver was Fedora 14 and right after that Fedora 15 came, with GNOME 3.0 and systemd. A lot of changes and rapid development back then. 18:21:32 I'm quite happy it's become calmer, maybe even a bit boring, but boring is good here. I hope Fedora will keep improving and proving that you can have a quality and reliable and cutting edge distro at the same time. 18:21:36 I would love to get you started and read/listen what you have to say about Fedora Core 4 (or any other version for that matter), but we're kinda tight. 18:21:45 Where it is going: hard to say, but I think something along the lines of Silverblue is the way forward, as I believe that having a rock-solid base OS for the Desktop is the future 18:21:48 I don't know if the Fedora community has changed much (always good people willing to help). When I first really got involved it was with the Fedora Cloud working group because I was excited about the new "cloud" skills I had been learning in my dayjob and I wanted to make Fedora work better in the cloud. I was empowered there and now help lead that effort. However now we have so many new 18:21:50 initiatives! Fedora CoreOS, Fedora Silverblue, Fedora IoT. There are so many leading edge efforts that make Fedora innovative, but at the same time the core of Fedora is as stable as it has been for a long time. It's quite a good balance if you ask me. 18:21:52 Really? Holy molly! 18:22:04 My first Fedora install was F17, I think that was the first one that used the new Anaconda. It was... different, but I liked it from the start, the way it worked was unusual for sure, but I understood the logic. I also remember using GNOME version 3.something and hating it because it didn't have the huge extension ecosystem it has now, I switched to Xfce for a while. Oh and upgrades us 18:22:05 ed to be pretty unreliable, it got so much better since then. 18:22:21 Also what changed is the level of technical knowledge you have to know to start using the distribution. Installation of the drivers and so on. We are really trying to make things simpler and easier for the end user. Nowadays I can imagine that Fedora is the first distribution that a user is trying and staying with it.. 18:22:46 I'm going to focus on the community side of things: I think we're getting better but we have some work to do to attract more contributors. As I keep saying, Fedora is the people, the products we make will evolve based on the state of tech and the community's interests :) 18:22:47 As for what's in the future, I think the rpm-ostree paradigm is going to be a big place for Fedora to advance: Silverblue, CoreOS, and IoT are all great initiatives that solve particular problems. The more we can enable the community to adapt the base to the needs of particular user communities, the more successful we'll be 18:23:30 I have a non-listed question, when can I ask it? 18:23:33 Well, it was buggy :) I was enjoying broken grub2 and kernel every week. Though nowadays again it tends to break again from time to time. 18:23:33 I think many places became much more fragile (more specifically, buildsystem relatedstuff), I guess because people are now split to so many different initiatives so that things which used to work for many years fall apart. 18:23:33 Oh yeah, and Fedora + Lenovo news are great for every person using Fedora. 18:23:37 I'm mod, but not mod 18:23:38 I would like to say I see the community growing slowly but surely, with some more diversity. From my own experience I have seen more and more ladies at our yearly Flock conference 18:23:57 There's a free for all at the end :D 18:24:11 I always dreamed of just going to a website of a major laptop vendor and buy a laptop with Fedora pre-installed. And it's actually not a dream any more. I hope to see Fedora on more laptops in the future. 18:24:23 So, as @mattdm said: if you think there's something Fedora can help you do, jump in and see how you can help the community get it done. Another new product would be awesome. 18:24:40 riecatnor++ 18:24:40 FranciscoD: Karma for riecatnor changed to 5 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:24:44 Hoping to see fedora on other manufacturers too😉 18:24:58 Yes, that announcement is fabulous! 18:25:15 I'm hoping our work with Fedora will also help increase diversity in STEM in general 18:25:17 s​esivany: yes, never thought that that would actually happen 18:25:29 It can act as a gateway to tech 18:25:47 I think others will follow Lenovo's lead on this. 18:26:02 All other vendors: you know where to reach me :) 18:26:15 @Defolos we hoped that it will happen :) because we really are an interesting choice :) 18:26:29 I'm glad to see Fedora as a gateway to STEM. That's one of the reasons I'm excited about IoT. 18:26:31 @Kohane That would be really nice :) 18:26:31 We also continue to have high participation in different internship programs which has allowed to introduce more diverse folks to Fedora, including young folks with new ideas :) 18:26:52 On telegram :O 18:26:55 (edited) On telegram :P 18:27:03 It's important that those laptops work and sell well. That will get others' attention. 18:27:07 mattdm: reach out to Tuxedo Computers in Germany, they sell laptops with Linux on them but atm only Ubuntu and Manjaro 18:27:15 I hope we also help show people that technology isn't just coding. 18:27:17 There's a big lack of Fedora in that list 18:27:22 Anyways, did everyone answered the questions? 18:27:28 Can we move on to the next set? 18:27:32 mattdm++ 18:27:32 FranciscoD: Karma for mattdm changed to 3 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:27:32 I am not sure if all the work that was done be hughsie (on fwupd) or mjg59 (plymouth splash with laptop vendor logo) was part of this strategy for attracting vendors, but I'd like to specifically say thanks to those people who worked on those features :) 18:27:44 Yes, this is VERY important. 18:27:47 Tech isn't only coding, and Fedora isn't only software 18:28:01 True. 18:28:06 hughsie++ mjg59++ 18:28:06 FranciscoD: Karma for rhughes changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:28:09 FranciscoD: Karma for mjg59 changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:28:19 big +1 to this, fwupd specifically has changed how I buy hardware ... I will not buy a computer that doesn't have fwupd support 18:28:20 FOLKS! 18:28:23 @ignatenkobrain the plymouth theme was done by Hans de Goede I think 18:28:24 Please! 18:28:35 FOLKS!!! 18:28:42 I started with Fedora 19. Fedora Ambassadors were very active at that time but things changed. Now we have Advocates program that I believe will attract more people to spread the word about Fedora at events etc without the need to have a "strict" process. My favourite video showing how diverse community we have is the one we did last year at Flock. (I'm on my phone so I cannot find t 18:28:42 he link now) 18:28:51 Oh, finally... 18:29:18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1eHRoEps6I 18:29:26 Thanks :) 18:29:46 So... 18:29:52 Next set of questions. 18:30:18 Now we're going to move to releases and desktop environments. 18:30:34 Question: 18:30:34 Why certain environments have Spins? 18:30:42 (edited) Question: 18:30:42 Why certain desktop environments have Spins? 18:30:48 Alireza (@R​ealDiako) has joined the Telegram Group! 18:30:48 Oh, that's easy: someone stepped up to make it. 18:30:52 why would not they? :) 18:31:25 +1 a spin/lab really only needs a set of people to do the necessary work :) 18:31:35 If you want to create one, find a couple of other interested folks and create one. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/CustomSpins 18:31:42 Oh, wow, that document needs an update. 18:31:45 XD 18:31:57 There were volunteers that made them and that commit to maintain them (which is also the reason why i3 and sway got none: there's not enough people to keep a spin up and running) 18:32:06 Yeah, updating the spins docs is on my Taiga Board of Sadness. I'll get to it eventually 😃 18:32:09 Yes, it does :-/ 18:32:14 If anyone wants help with doing a new spin/lab, please contact the NeuroFedora team. We just did the new lab this release, so we're quite up to date with the process. 18:32:18 Note: I'm doing one with i3wm 18:32:20 :D 18:32:21 They just need to find their community to make it happen.. 18:32:41 Okay, next question. 18:32:45 x3mboy: please ping me after the AMA about that 18:32:48 Still about releases and desktops. 18:32:54 @bcotton: I can help with that, I have notes about the process etc. :) 18:33:06 I'll try and put together a "step by step" 18:33:12 * FranciscoD adds to tasklist 18:33:26 Question: 18:33:27 Why GNOME Shell is Workstation's default? 18:33:57 So, back when the Fedora Board and FESCo launched Fedora.next.... 18:34:03 (this was before the Fedora Council) 18:34:12 yes... 18:34:13 Note: Gnome is the default DE, and gnome-shell is what it uses. 18:34:18 I'd like to see some spins docs too. Talk to me when you have time :) 18:34:22 because GNOME is most user-friendly and does not require customization :) 18:34:28 ... the idea was that there would be three focused editions addressing key target markets. 18:34:34 editions +1 18:34:43 Those were: server use cases, desktop use cases, and cloud/emerging computing. 18:34:53 That's pretty simple: because it has (by far) the biggest contributor based behind it. 18:34:54 I wouldn't say it better :) 18:35:06 We asked for Working Groups with people interested in these things to form and decide how best to make such a product 18:35:09 (edited) That's pretty simple: because it has (by far) the biggest contributor base behind it. 18:35:33 Interesting that each of you gives a different answer... 18:35:39 The Working Group for desktop decided that GNOME was the best choice because as a project we have the most resources behind GNOME and could make the most polished experience that way. 18:36:00 I'm getting to the same answer as Jiří. I am just using more words :) 18:36:07 @Kohane: @mattdm's answer is the complete one and will include the other ones :) 18:36:19 Great. 18:36:23 @Kohane I think that the answers are basically the same - they just use different wording.. 18:36:32 It's also important to keep in mind that even though we have multiple spins/labs/products, it takes an enormous amount of effort to prepare these for release, especially to QA them. Given the resources that the QA team can dedicate to a complete test process, only so many can be "release blocking". 18:37:01 So, the workstation is release blocking, I *think* along with KDE. 18:37:14 Yes, KDE is release blocking. 18:37:27 So what I'm saying is, if you have time, join the QA team: help us test all our releases and increase the proportion of our software that we can QA properly for each release ; 18:38:11 Or learn openQA and automate that process 18:38:19 (Creating a release is not just about packaging up the necessary software: there's a lot more that happens "under the hood") 18:38:31 adamw++ mboddu++ kparal++ 18:38:31 FranciscoD: Karma for adamwill changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:38:34 FranciscoD: Karma for mohanboddu changed to 8 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:38:37 FranciscoD: Karma for kparal changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:38:40 I really like having a diversity of options. I was an Xfce user for years. But having one focused edition really helps with things like the Lenovo deal, because vendors presented with "make sure all these ten desktops work" are going to bulk. 18:38:42 Learning openQA and automation is in my list 18:38:47 balk 18:38:56 /home/leandroramos (@l​eandroramos) has joined the Telegram Group! 18:39:40 Sorry, but what does «balk» mean? 18:39:50 (Of course, I expect all of those other desktops will run well on the new Lenovo-Fedora models.) 18:40:11 "hesitate or b-e unwilling to accept an idea or undertaking" 18:40:28 Oh. Thank you. Google wasn't helping me. 18:40:29 It's a baseball term for when a pitcher begins to pitch but then stops in an attempt to throw out a runner on base. Basically it means they'll change their mind and not do it 18:40:42 "Be frightened away by all the apparent work", basically. :) 18:41:13 Oh, okay, thanks. 18:41:17 Is it baseball? I think of horses. :) 18:41:27 Yes, it's understandable. 18:41:43 Okay, now moving to the next set of questions. 18:42:25 Now about Silverblue 18:42:33 How do you see Silverblue and Workstation in the near future? In your view, what will be the dynamics between the two? 18:43:13 I would ask you why if we had time. 18:43:38 I expect Silverblue to eventually become the default edition, and for Workstation to either go away or, if there is enough interest (see "spins" answer!) become a GNOME Desktop spin 18:43:40 (edited) I would ask you why if we had time.... 18:44:02 I think Silverblue is the future. I was hoping it would be replacing the traditional Workstation faster than it is, but I think sooner or later it will be the default desktop experience in Fedora. 18:44:04 I'd like to see Silverblue become Workstation. I think for a lot of desktop use cases, it provides a lot of benefits over traditional installs. The hard part is going to be helping people adjust to the different way of managing it 18:44:10 I see... 18:44:10 This is the answer I was fearing... 18:44:11 That's really hard to answer. We still have some rough edges in Silverblue.. Until we figure them out we can't really think about replacing Workstation with Silverblue as the default Workstation offering.. 18:44:11 But we need a few things to work better. More flatpaks, better Toolbox (although that's getting there!), and some better answers for out-of-tree drivers. 18:44:36 I expect the two to live side by side for quite a few years. 18:44:37 I see Silverblue (or something comparable) as the further away future, Workstation will be (at least my preference) for the near future as silverblue is still too rough around the edges for me as a developer. But I think silverblue will replace workstation in the long run as the default desktop system as it has better stability and security guarantees. 18:45:00 @Kohane Why fear? 18:45:04 I have mixed feelings about these 2. I like some ideas which silverblue implements, but I still want to build & install & remove tons of RPMs with good old tools on my laptop. The way flatpaks are built in Fedora is… not in best shape (complicated and only few people can do it) 18:45:10 I think that's the most probably scenario.. 18:45:11 Defolos++ 18:45:11 nasirhm: Karma for defolos changed to 3 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:45:19 But I expect that this will still take years and years before Workstation gets replaced 18:45:26 * FranciscoD has been meaning to look into building flatpaks from rpm packages 18:45:28 I mean the flatpaks which are built from the fedora packages, not from the source code. 18:45:34 More than two, less than ten. :) 18:46:02 (years) 18:46:05 Oh, not worries. Just me being old. Don't mind me. 😁 18:46:05 Anyone can build them, but the learning curve isn't the easy one I admit.. But I hope that we will simplify the process.. 18:46:46 Tomáš Popela +1 18:46:53 Roberto (@r​damian_alfonso) has joined the Telegram Group! 18:47:07 I do think it's much harder to get good info (for bug reporting) when you have an issue with a flatpak 18:47:09 well, if you are not going to automate it, then it still won't be very helpful for me :/ 18:47:30 Also if someone wants to know what Fedora Flatpaks are available you can check https://fedora.fishsoup.net/flatpak-status/ 18:47:33 A lot of people fear that with Silverblue and such traditional packages will go away. But Silverblue and flatpaks still need the packages to build the content, so packages will stay for longer than we think and it makes sense for people they can keep building variants of Fedora directly on them. 18:47:44 Exactly! 18:48:07 (edited) A lot of people fear that with Silverblue and such traditional packages will go away. But Silverblue and flatpaks still need the packages to build the content, so packages will stay for longer than we think and if it makes sense for people they can keep building variants of Fedora directly on them. 18:48:14 Yes, that's my fear actually. I don't want the traditional packaging to go away. 18:48:29 I doubt that traditional packaging will go away, after all: that rock-solid base OS needs to come from someplace 18:48:35 yorodm (@y​orodm) has joined the Telegram Group! 18:48:37 yes.. one of the goals is to actually make abrt to work with Flatpaks.. 18:48:47 I think there is little chance of traditional packages going away for the foreseeable future 18:48:52 and rpms are the way to go here imho, as we can plug them into rpm-ostree 18:49:12 @Kohane as Jiri mentioned, they won't go away.. They are the foundation for Fedora Flatpaks and for Silverblue.. 18:49:14 Oh, really? I didn't know this! 18:49:18 * Defolos agrees with dustymabe here 18:49:40 @Kohane, yep, rpms are the inputs 18:49:43 Oh, okay. Good 😊 18:49:43 This is one of the reasons rpm-ostree is genius 18:49:54 I have ten more minutes, y'all. 18:50:00 Distributions like Fedora have invested last 25 years in package systems and tooling around it, it's still a pretty good way to integrate open source software, why would they suddenly throw all that out of the window? 18:50:09 Unfortunately many people think other way around :) That we won't need RPMs anymore and flatpak will solve all the problems. I think same happened few years ago with dockah. 18:50:16 Yes, let's move on to another question so @mattdm can give a last answer. Okay? 18:50:23 :( 18:50:26 yes 18:50:57 Fedora is known to pioneer new technologies. Is there any new software in the horizon that you're really excited about from a user standpoint? 18:51:15 Next question @mattdm 👆🏻 18:51:19 An excellent last question for @mattdm this time 18:51:41 rpm-ostree and ostree! but we already have it.. but I hope that we can leverage even more :) 18:52:07 or use more of its potential.. 18:52:21 Can you say why? What is the most exciting bit about them? 18:52:29 I think the work around Fedora IoT stands out here. Like Silverblue and CoreOS, it uses ostree. And it has a cool provisioning service which uses Ignition, like CoreOS 18:52:32 https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/iot/ignition/ 18:53:05 Flatpaks and the immutable desktop OS ala Silverblue: I wish to have an essentially unbreakable base OS, that survives all of my abuse :-P 18:53:12 and I would also add Flatpaks.. As they really make the life for application developers a lot easier.. 18:53:17 I think I will be too boring here: RPM :) 18:53:17 Also for people using IoT, this is not new (and also ties back to Fedora Atomic), but Cockpit is a great way to admin a system 18:53:23 Yes! 18:53:34 This is much better than the approach of trying to run a full desktop on your Raspberry Pi 18:53:40 Hahaha 18:54:03 I am excited to see what the packaging team does with RPM in the future, yes. :) 18:54:05 @i​gnatenkobrain: I'll be boring too and say Fedora CoreOS 18:54:09 ignatenkobrain: agreed, rpm's recent development looks very promising 18:54:19 an OS that automatically updates and the update paths are tested. 18:54:23 Not really technical, but I'm hoping that we can kickstart supporting Open Science with Fedora. Scientific software is *always* cutting edge, so it fits with Fedora really well :) 18:54:30 (packaging tools team) 18:54:36 FranciscoD++ 18:54:36 dustymabe: Karma for ankursinha changed to 4 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:54:49 FranciscoD -- nice! 18:54:49 lot of inovation going on in rpm given that it was dormant for a long, long time 18:54:53 I hope that we will get there with Silverblue as well! 18:54:54 Everyone thinks that such thing can not evolve and change, but that is not true. Sadly EL systems can not keep up. 18:55:15 That's great! 18:55:15 Pity I can't give you cookies from here. 18:55:24 FranciscoD: nice to hear that! 18:55:32 I'm pretty excited and worried at the same time about systemd-homed. A lot of great features, but also a lot of challenges. 18:55:48 'Untitled Image' uploaded by m​attdm: https://i.imgur.com/vLmjoIE.jpg 18:55:49 I'm understanding EL as Enterprise Linux. Is that correct? 18:55:58 yes 18:56:05 I wish scientific software was always cutting edge. Some of the stuff I had to support when I worked at the university was ooooooooooold. We had a Windows 95 box running in 2009 because it was the only OS supported by the professor's mass spectrometer. 18:56:08 oh yeah, how could have I forgot about it. I still did not have time to try it out :) but it does sound exciting 18:56:09 😆 18:56:12 yes 18:56:26 @bcotton: ugh, yeh, I know that all the imaging our lab does is old windows based 18:56:36 you're "stuck" there with version of rpm from up to 10 years ago, and getting features in there is pretty much impossible 18:57:02 some specialist tools like their two photon microscopes etc will remain proprietary, but I'm hoping I can at least get people to switch from matlab to octave/python/R/Julia 18:57:16 Okay, goodbye everyone! It's been fun! 18:57:22 FranciscoD++ 18:57:22 Defolos: Karma for ankursinha changed to 5 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:57:34 I had that with libraries too. In the literal sense. They had software for their books and storage and whatnot. And there were no newer stuff so they were stuck in prehistoric systems with prehistoric software. 18:57:35 mattdm: bye! 18:57:41 Most journals now require all code and data to be FOSS, by the way, so there's a co-ordinated effort in academia to make science more Open 18:57:43 Goodbye! Thanks for attending! It's been amazing having you! 18:57:44 Anyways, moving on to the next set. 18:57:53 I have to go as well, unfortunately. Enjoy the rest of the questions! 18:57:54 (edited) I have to go as well, unfortunately. Enjoy the rest of the questions 18:57:57 Same for me, see ya folks! 18:57:58 * FranciscoD prefers to use "Free", but "Open" is the prevalent term currently 18:58:08 See you around! 😃 Have fun! 18:58:23 You can get also some info in https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/82 18:58:23 Thanks for answering! Hope to see you around! 18:58:25 Oh, shame! We'll miss you 18:58:40 @Kohone: if the library has a contract with a service provider, they're "locked in" :/ 18:58:42 See you! Have a nice day! 18:59:02 Bye! Thanks for answering! 18:59:02 No, they hadn't, they just couldn't find something else that would do the same. 18:59:02 It takes resources to migrate, and then maintain a Free Software based stack 18:59:22 Yeah, I know, but we need to move on to the next set of questions. 18:59:23 Sorry. 18:59:33 Hm, true, I've not seen a lot of library mangement tools. (not that I've looked) 19:00:32 @bcotton: I managed to get my supervisor to switch from doc to LaTeX for writing, probably my biggest achievement in 5 years. 19:00:32 I looked for years and gave up. Maybe there's something now. 19:00:39 Anayways. moving on! 19:00:43 Linux (@t​helinuxninja) has joined the Telegram Group! 19:00:50 FranciscoD: congrats! I didn't manage that then 19:00:56 Overleaf really helped 19:00:56 Next question, still about releases and new technologies. 19:01:00 Are there any plans to cooperate with mobile phone manufacturers to provide Fedora on mobile phones? Or at least create a spin for existing phones like the Librem 5 or PinePhone? 19:01:28 mattdm probably would have been the best one to answer that ^^ 19:01:37 As far as I know _someone_ managed to get Fedora running on the pinephone 19:01:43 no idea who that was though 19:01:53 So there are no active efforts to _partner_, but we do have a Mobility SIG working on this sort of thing. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mobility 19:01:55 that's unfortunately all I can say about that topic 19:02:11 @bcotton - nice - didn't know there was a SIG 19:02:11 Yeh, I've not heard or read anything on the community channels, but yes, there was some recent activity on twitter where someone had run Fedora on a phone as Defolos said 19:02:12 I've seen someone try to make Fedora run on Pinephone, but I think that's where it ends now. 19:02:16 No worries, it happens. 19:02:25 https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/f59vhs/fedora_on_a_phone_pinephone/ 19:02:47 Oh! That's what the Mobility SIG does? I've been wondering for some time and never could get around to look into it. 19:02:50 Thank you! 19:02:52 I think it'll be fun to have Fedora on a phone, but I'm not sure if it's currently a good investment of the community's limited resources. 19:03:14 I remember there was another distro targeting phones at some point, and then that didn't quite go anywhere either 19:03:37 Yes, I remember that. I mention the distro though. 19:03:55 I would be curious about all the binary bits that you would need to have installed to actually make a phone call with it.. As I don't expect that it will be possible to have something that's completely free and open source.. 19:04:01 The market is pretty saturated with the current OSes, backed by huge corporations focussing on it, so we as a volunteer community are unlikely to be able to compete 19:04:32 Yes, that's true @sanjay_ankur 19:04:35 tpopela++ 19:04:35 FranciscoD: Karma for tpopela changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 19:04:35 It's currently pretty much impossible to build open source GSM stack. 19:04:57 and to be frankly honest: Debian and Arch have a much stronger standing in the ARM community than we do 19:05:08 Yes, true 19:05:09 I thought so.. 19:05:13 (not downplaying what the awesome ARM sig does) 19:05:18 Well, next set of questions if you don't mind. 19:05:24 go ahead 19:05:35 A lot of projects have tried Linux on mobile over the years, but they've mostly all fizzled as far as I'm aware. Two big problems that I know of: 1. the actual telephony parts are pretty restricted and 2. the third-party app ecosystem is vital to user adoption (as Microsoft learned) 19:05:55 Google Cloud platform had a Core OS image to use in a VM. Part of it became Fedora Core OS upon Red Hat purchasing it. Will Fedora Core OS come to Google cloud as Core OS is deprecated? If so what will be the timeline? 19:06:13 /me looks at dustymabe 19:06:15 dustymabe: your question ;-) 19:06:18 (edited) Google Cloud platform had a Core OS image to use in a VM. Part of it became Fedora Core OS upon Red Hat purchasing it. Will Fedora Core OS come to Google cloud as Core OS is deprecated? If so, what will be the timeline? 19:06:54 👋 19:07:08 So? 19:07:13 good news - we already have GCP images for Fedora CoreOS that are being provided. 19:07:27 Nice! 19:07:27 and uploaded to GCP 19:07:36 they are in the `fedora-coreos-cloud` project 19:08:10 we have three image families (one for eace of our streams) 19:08:19 `fedora-coreos-stable` `fedora-coreos-testing` and `fedora-coreos-next` 19:08:26 I see... 19:08:44 You can view the latest image in an image family via `gcloud compute images describe-from-family --project fedora-coreos-cloud fedora-coreos-stable` 19:08:53 we are working on documentation for this 19:09:17 Oh, good. 19:09:36 we only recently got them added, so the docs are lagging slightly 19:09:43 should be up early next week, though 19:09:55 Oh, I see. Sweet. 19:10:37 Okay, I'll move to the next set of questions. 19:10:54 Is that okay for you ? 19:10:58 +1 19:11:05 Excellent! 19:11:07 Thank you! 19:11:24 💣 cerberus 💣 (@r​alpheeee) has joined the Telegram Group! 19:11:45 The next question comes with a disclaimer. I have no idea what is it about, I'm trusting you guys do know it. 19:11:51 How is the state of reproducible builds, so everyone could build the packages themselves to verify that they haven't been manipulated? 19:12:20 Uh, I'm afraid we're not too great on this front 19:12:29 Oh, okay. 19:12:44 We have benefited from a some work that has been done by the folks at openSUSE 19:12:56 but afaik we are not actively tracking reproducibility of the builds 19:13:15 there was a very brief discussion on the mailinglist a few months ago, but afaik nothing came out of that 19:13:20 I think that people were trying in the past, but looks like things are quiet on that front nowadays.. 19:13:26 Defolos: do you want to add a blurb about what reproducible builds are and what the current limitations are for us? 19:13:30 this is once again one of these projects that need a chamption to drive it 19:13:34 For some of us in the dark, could you ELI5 what it means? 19:13:55 Good news -- meeting was short so I'm back. I have some thoughts on this one. 19:14:15 reproducible builds mean that if you take the sources from fedora that you are able to get the exact same build results as from Fedora's infra 19:14:21 YAY!!!! 19:14:27 Welcome @mattdm !!! 😃 19:14:29 mattdm++ (I was saving it for later lol) 19:14:29 siddharthvipul: Karma for mattdm changed to 4 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 19:14:30 Reproducable builds means a system where you start with the same source code and build environment and get a bit-for-bit identical result 19:14:30 > 19:14:51 This is harder than it seems because timestamps and so on tend to creep in 19:14:54 Ooooohhh... Now I get it. 19:14:57 Yay! Please do tag an earlier question and answer it, we can sort it out in the magazine articles :) 19:14:59 And you need to have the exact same build environment 19:15:16 and a billion other details unfortunately 19:15:20 +1 19:15:23 One thing to be aware of is that the situation historically is very different for Fedora than e.g. Debian 19:15:30 Oh right, I understand. Thanks for clarifying! 19:15:34 reproducible-builds.org for those interested to know more 19:15:36 Yes? Why? 19:15:51 Excellent, thank you! 19:15:55 Fedora has always had a central build system. By contrast, Debian allows maintainers to build their packages on their own system and upload binary results 19:16:10 unless you can have a static, reproducible starting point, it's extremely hard to have the same outputs in such a complex system 19:16:22 So, a compromised dev's laptop could produce compromised binaries without the developer even knowing. 19:16:24 Oh, I see... 19:16:25 Ohhh. Which would you say is the better way to do things? 19:16:35 mattdm: this is unfortunately not really an excuse, because opensuse is *big* in reproducible builds and they are fully centralized as well with OBS 19:16:38 With Fedora, that route is signficantly harder (and can't happen by accident) 19:17:00 but as I said, we could benefit a lot from their work here 19:17:06 Nonetheless, ultimately, you have to trust your distro provider to some degree. 19:17:14 we just need someone as dedicated to this as Bernhard Wiedeman in opensuse 19:17:23 There are other security measures in place to check the packages for validity, right? 19:17:34 Ruchika (@g​rlwholifts) has joined the Telegram Group! 19:17:35 I think it's cool that people are working on these zero-trust kind of problems, and probably good for the world, but of all the problems users face I don't think this is practically the top one 19:17:47 So we haven't really had that much interest in addressing it 19:17:50 Defolos: there's a council seat open, and perhaps an a new community level objective to go with that :P 19:18:13 Understood. 19:18:14 FranciscoD absolutely. Packages are built from our central git repository and GPG signed. 19:18:28 * FranciscoD has been practicing volunteering others :P 19:18:31 FranciscoD: not sure that I want to be Bernhard 2 ;-) 19:18:58 @mattdm: that's what I was wondering: it'll be good to have reproducible builds, but we have other measures in place from a security perspective. 19:19:05 Defolos: no, you can be Defolos I :D 19:19:15 Okay, if it's fine for you all, I'm going to move to the next set of questions 19:19:37 Arise, Sir Defolos the First (I imagine @mattdm doing this) 19:19:54 ROFL! 19:20:08 Are you guys planning to start an Imperial Family? With Defolos I as first member? 19:20:16 There's this: https://badges.fedoraproject.org/badge/the-blessing-of-the-fpl 19:20:27 does remind me of a knighthood XD 19:20:30 Matt is definitely the one to do this 19:20:43 want it, make sure you keep @mattdm happy :P 19:20:44 Okay, moving on. 19:20:50 I still have a long list of questions. 19:21:28 Stateless configuration allows for easier provisioning of servers. What are the plans regarding this for Fedora? 19:21:59 Oh wow. There was a project for this like 15 years ago 19:22:04 /me goes to make a cup of tea... 19:22:20 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/StatelessLinux 19:22:21 Really? What was the name? 19:22:24 Fedora Core 6 or so. 19:22:38 There was some experimentation and it didn't go very far. 19:22:56 Not sure what exactly qualifies as fully stateless but... 19:22:56 HOWEVER, really, the concepts they were exploring ended up affecting CoreOS and Fedora Atomic 19:23:08 oh man, I remember documenting that for RHEL 19:23:08 In many ways, those are really the successor to that idea. 19:23:14 Yes, go dusty. :) 19:23:14 you can run Fedora CoreOS live (from RAM) and configure it automatically via Ignition 19:23:53 Ooo, IGNITION! 19:24:00 * FranciscoD goes to look it up 19:24:11 so you boot via PXE and run from RAM and use Ignition to configure things 19:24:23 https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-coreos/producing-ign/ -> for any other curios people 19:24:23 then rinse and repeat in the future when you want 19:25:09 Oh, that's interesting. 19:25:14 depending on the workload you may want to use some local disk for "jobs" but it all depends on how the user configures it whether that is necessary 19:26:13 colin walters' devconf talk touches on this a bit 19:26:15 https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/advanced-ignition-devconf-cz-2020/18493 19:27:08 I see. 19:27:15 so not exactly stateless, but I think it captures the essence 19:28:01 Well... mostly stateless? 19:28:03 :-P 19:28:15 :) - even with systems that do run on local disks 19:28:29 Ignition helps us get more to a model where the user has automated provisioning 19:28:34 So basically the answer is: "There was a project about this what was worked on in that project ended in Atomic and CoreOS" 19:28:42 Is that reasonably correct? 19:29:38 @Kohane I think it's more "There was an effort for this long ago that died off but there are other technologies that exist that help us get closer to the end goal of that orignal project" 19:30:02 Fair enough. Thanks for the correction. 19:30:21 Okay, I'm going to move to the next set of questions now. 19:31:02 here is an example of what I mean about disk based systems and automating provisioning: https://twitter.com/dustymabe/status/1249697211904069633?s=20 19:31:03 This is about installation and dual boots. 19:31:17 Oh, great, thank you!! 19:31:34 Question: 19:31:34 I think that dual boot is a good way to introduce more potential Fedora users coming from Windows. Unfortunately, some times thing don't go well. Does Fedora Team have any plans to make GRUB restore easier in the regular ISO image? 19:31:46 (edited) Question: 19:31:47 Dual boot is a good way to introduce more potential Fedora users coming from Windows. Unfortunately, some times thing don't go well. Does Fedora Team have any plans to make GRUB restore easier in the regular ISO image? 19:32:20 hm, anyone from the Workstation SIG here? 19:32:21 I am not aware of any plans. 19:32:33 I agree that it would be handy to have more rescue tools on the livecd 19:32:41 Not that I know of, unfortunately. 19:32:48 I know that the dvd images had rescue options, but I don't think the live images have them 19:32:56 The netinstall *may* 19:33:04 We do have a great bootloader team in the Desktop team at Red Hat and they are really trying hard to avoid these kind of situations.. 19:33:12 but bootloaders are.. hard.. 19:33:12 Honestly it's been so long since I've needed it! 19:33:20 I'm.. 19:33:22 the truth is that I've not had issues recently, but we do see a few issues related to dualboot on AskFedora 19:33:52 It comes down to lots of specifics most of the time, so it's easier to gather information from people and help them re-install grub (or whatever else) 19:33:56 * Defolos never ran dualboot with anything but Linux and that always worked 19:34:01 Since you needed what, a bootloader? 19:34:03 I know that they've been rewriting some parts (or whole) os_prober to be more reliable.. 19:34:36 Since I needed a rescue mode 19:34:36 AskFedora = https://ask.fedoraproject.org/ : go there, ask questions, help others :) 19:35:30 +1, when the situation does arise though, there's a somewhat complicated way of mounting bits using the live to fix it 19:35:38 * FranciscoD doesn't remember it off the top of his head 19:36:20 (In a lot of cases, just re-installing fixes things: much simpler if one has a separate /home partition that can be re-mounted) 19:36:21 Yes, but the question was with newcomers in mind. 19:36:49 It isn't to do with one's techical expertise: it's software, so things can go wrong 19:37:01 Well, true. But apparently a lot of people had issues with GRUB getting messed up... 19:37:09 it's quite difficult to ensure that it all works well when the software invovled is proprietary 19:37:15 Never happened to me, but it seems to be a common problem 19:37:26 Sure, but "a lot of people" have also not had trouble, so this is anecdotal evidence 19:37:29 True. 19:37:42 Yes, of course. 19:37:46 what I can suggest is that they head to the support channels where experienced community members will probably be able to help them out 19:38:11 Oh! 19:38:11 Well, same here. It's been a decade I don't use rescue mode. 19:38:26 Okay, good. 19:38:29 but it's really hard to say that we can get any combination of OSes to boot correctly on a myriad of configurations would be a lie :/ 19:38:47 s/would/:would/ 19:38:54 Yes, of course. No problem. 19:39:18 Next question? :) 19:39:19 Okay, I have two more questions 19:39:36 And maybe we can do a mini open floor afterwards- 19:39:45 ++ for that :) 19:40:05 Right now Fedora Workstation doesn't have the equivalent of an LTS release. CentOS/RHEL seem to fulfill this equivalency, but the general perception is that these OSs are not suitable for desktop. How does the Fedora team see CentOS/RHEL's place in the desktop OS market in terms of a "Fedora LTS"? 19:40:25 Next question, @mattdm 👆🏻 19:40:46 I think the focus has been on improving the upgrade experience between releases, and it works *very* well. 19:40:50 (edited) And maybe we can do a mini open floor afterwards. 19:40:53 Yes, exactly. 19:41:14 I don't really see the need for an LTS to be honest as upgrades are working so well these days 19:41:22 We actually discussed this with Lenovo. They are already on a six month refresh cycle because of Windows 10. That's just what desktop operating systems do. 19:41:30 We are just ahead of the curve :) 19:41:47 I have to leave.. Thank you everyone, I enjoyed it and also learned something new :).. If there will be a question on me during the open floor, I will try to reply to it tomorrow! 19:41:52 Awesome! 19:41:59 People think they want an LTS, but what they actually want is for things not to break or change terribly. We're going to keep changing things, but I think we're doing a good job of not breaking things these days. 19:42:11 Thanks for answering! Catch you later! 19:42:13 It feels so good to be ahead of the curve, doesn't it? :-P 19:42:26 Because "LTS but keep upgrading the packages I care about" doesn't actually make sense 19:42:44 Sure! No worries at all! And thank you so much! 19:43:08 For completeness: we make sure we maintain the "upgrade path", this is policy: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fesco/Updates_Policy/ 19:43:25 then, before release, we do upgrade tests: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/OT4LWH77QV3KNARKCXYQTKCRARKVRRHW/#EA3NXSZYY6XXIURKMQSK7XL5QH27E2FH 19:44:04 so the idea really is to make upgrades work 19:44:04 Oh, nice. Thanks for the links @sanjay_ankur ! 19:44:12 * FranciscoD is a fountain of links 19:44:18 How does one ask a question from IRC? (or get in the que) 19:44:34 dowdle: you're doing it right now :-P 19:44:43 Upgrades using dnf work really well: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/dnf-system-upgrade/ 19:44:54 but it is important that people read the full doc ;) 19:45:08 Defolos: pass this on: Over a year ago mattdm said that Fedora for the Microsoft Store for use with Windows Subsystem for Linux was in the works but was awaiting Legal's approval. What if any progress has been made? 19:45:18 Yeah, read the ... manual :-P 19:45:29 or at least skim through it ;) 19:45:53 I think he should be able to read that on Telegram? 19:45:58 mattdm: ^^^ 19:46:08 I have to leave as well. Thanks a lot everyone for organizing this ❤️ I enjoyed it a lot :) 19:46:08 @jonatoni ? Do you want to say something? I see you typing. 19:46:34 Oh, okay! Thank you so much for coming! Have a great day! 19:46:52 bbye :) 19:46:52 Thank you for coming 19:46:55 Re: WSL. We are stuck in the same way. 19:46:58 Okay. Last question and then mini open floor. 19:47:03 Sorry :( 19:47:10 This is the shortest answer today. 19:47:37 My last question is about the future new logo. Any news on that? 19:47:45 less stuck :) 19:47:51 * FranciscoD is excited about it 19:48:04 * Defolos as well 19:48:13 although I'll need new stickers then… 19:48:18 I cannot thank the design team enough: they do so much work for us 19:48:25 There were a few updates to the design, including the logomark being redone (the text part) 19:48:33 xD 19:49:07 Then we had to wait for 1) the IBM deal to close, because Red Hat didn't want to mess with trademarks while that was open and 2) a new fiscal year, because RH Legal needs to do a worldwide trademark search and registration on the new design 19:49:14 That is now in progress 19:49:25 But I don't know how long it will take. 19:49:37 I look forward to submitting all the new logo related artwork we have when we defend the new one 19:49:46 Ah. Okay. 19:49:49 Roger that. 19:49:51 we did that once, didnt we? 19:49:56 "Lawyers" 19:49:59 * FranciscoD remembers submitting *old* dvds etc 19:50:05 Yeah... 19:50:19 Okay. Mini - Open Floor now 19:50:32 Oo, I want to kick this off with a call for volunteers! 19:50:49 Go ahead, please! 19:50:51 That's a comment, not a question 😔 19:50:57 (edited) That's a comment, not a question 😋 19:50:59 specify for what ;-) 19:51:06 Free-for-all is now OPEN! 19:51:14 Security & Privacy 19:51:14 (1) What is the current state of SELinux in Fedora? How does it compare to AppArmor and what is the difference between them from a security perspective? 19:51:14 (2) Concerning privacy in Fedora: Are systemd's default DNS servers used and if yes, why are they not replaced with more privacy-respecting alternatives? Is Google used for NTP/time server usage? 19:51:17 As you've read today, there's so much Fedora can do, but it can only be done if we have the man-power! So, if you do have a few hours a week, come, join the community and do whatever interestst you 19:51:19 Sonal has joined the Telegram Group! 19:51:35 (edited) Security & Privacy 19:51:35 (1) What is the current state of SELinux in Fedora? How does it compare to AppArmor and what is the difference between them from a security perspective? 19:51:35 (2) Concerning privacy in Fedora: Are systemd's default DNS servers used and if yes, why are they not replaced with more privacy-respecting alternatives? Is Google used for NTP/time server usage? 19:51:43 YES 19:52:06 Yay.... finally it sopen.. been waiting for this even... Top of mind question for me has always been about the image build process. I have had a lot of success making custom live-CD images for schools and many other clients of mine, both comercially and as part of my volunteer efforts via LUG's. Would love to see some more documnentation and tooling to help us custom image builders. 19:52:08 Please think your questions carefully as there's a slow mode of 1 minute 19:52:09 The Fedora-Join team is happy to help folks get started: head over to #fedora-join or @joinfedora and ping us 19:52:14 I have contributed a few small docs PRs for Silverblue. But being on GitHub I do not get any badges. Is there a way to get get some badges someway? 19:52:16 Well... technically Ankur is asking something. 19:52:26 m​aruide: SElinux is still athing in Fedora and as far as I know it can be far superiour to Apparmor. UNfortunately I'm not an expert in that, you might want to ask in #fedora-selinux on freenode for further details 19:52:45 the question here is, who do i contact to start contributing to that part of the documentation and tooling? 19:52:51 * FranciscoD is done, just wanted to make sure people know Fedora Join is there to help :) 19:52:51 ShadowCaptian, see me in #fedora-respins 19:52:56 Nice! 19:52:57 Martin: 1. Pretty good? I know that there have been a number of high-profile container-related CVEs which are constrained by SELinux in Fedora. Comparing it to AppArmor is probably too much for an AMA and best done by searching for articles on the topic 19:53:09 https://stopdisablingselinux.com/ 19:53:29 (edited) Please think your questions carefully as there's a slow mode of 10 seconds 19:53:47 2. You would have to configure the system to use systemd's resolver (currently not the default) and then fail to configure your own DNS for that to happen 19:54:07 Lucas (@L​ucasSimon) has joined the Telegram Group! 19:54:08 Bexelbie, I think? 19:54:23 ShadowCaptian: you might also be interested in kiwi: https://github.com/OSInside/kiwi, that's a cross distro image builder that I've been involved at $dayjob 19:54:47 ShadowCaptian: #fedora-respins can really help with that, and so can the NeuroFedora folks, we just had a new "lab" image, so we're quite up to date with the process 19:54:53 pretty nice if you can tolerate XML and it has excellent Fedora support thanks to Neal Gompa's work (Neal = Conan Kudo) 19:55:01 (edited) Bexelbie, I think 19:55:12 ngompa++ 19:55:12 FranciscoD: Karma for ngompa changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 19:55:17 Clement (@c​verna) has joined the Telegram Group! 19:55:17 Stefano -- on badges.... I think this could be done if there were a hook on the github site feeding things into fedmsg. Or, someone on the silverblue team could create badges to be awarded manually. 19:55:30 how ngompa manages to do all the work they do is beyond my understanding 19:55:32 My question: 19:55:32 When I help other people to install fedora, one of the things I (and most people) advice them is to not active the third party repos from gnome software, because it will only enable a tiny part of rpmfusion. Instead, we recommend to enable rpmfusion repos from the terminal. Why rpmfusion repos from gnome-softwate are restricted? Are there any plans to adress this issue? 19:55:45 (edited) My question: 19:55:45 When I help other people to install fedora, one of the things I (and most people) advice them is to not enable the third party repos from gnome software, because it will only enable a tiny part of rpmfusion. Instead, we recommend to enable rpmfusion repos from the terminal. Why rpmfusion repos from gnome-softwate are restricted? Are there any plans to adress this issue? 19:55:54 What's the best way for a non coder to contribute besides reporting bugs? 19:55:55 (classic question, had to ask anyways, sorry) 19:56:04 Hello 19:56:04 Are we moving to a new logo? 19:56:04 I'd be happy to get a clarification on the logo status :) 19:56:10 Thanks, what about NTP vendor pools? 19:56:10 Ok thx mattdm 19:56:18 @PacPacPacPac: the third party repositories in gnome-software are *not* meant to replace rpmfusion 19:56:22 metalbunny: test, test, test 19:56:34 PacPac: third party repos can contain software which we cannot officially point people to. The limited repos have been vetted by legal. 19:56:36 they are there merely for convenience so that things like the nvidia drivers are available to users more easily 19:56:37 Legal issues, most likely. @mattdm ? 19:56:38 Are there plans to bring Fedora CoreOS to popular cloud platforms? Google Cloud has CoreOS as a supported distro but its the old CoreOS which has been deprecated. 19:56:38 https://whatcanidoforfedora.org 19:56:46 All the best people start in Documentation 😉, but also Design, outreach (Advocates program), testing, marketing, etc etc etc 19:56:59 Ah. you were faster. 19:57:00 Keep in mind that MOST of fedora is not coding. 19:57:01 metalbunny: essentially test and report bugs, specifically go to bodhi and watch out for updates of packages that you care about, install them and give karma 19:57:20 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Updates_Testing -> use packages, test them, provide updates 19:57:29 and go here: https://whatcanidoforfedora.org/ 19:57:34 Help moderate Ask Fedora 19:57:37 +1 19:57:42 Help translate to a language you speak 19:57:50 Maybe I should have asked "non-technical", but thanks for all your answers and the link, will it check out 19:58:06 IceWreck - we answered the Fedora CoreOS on GCP question earlier (see scrollback) 19:58:16 @metalbunny: head over to @joinfedora and talk to us there, we'll help you find your area of interest in the community :) 19:58:22 Find an area where there are clearly interested people but no regular meetings being held. Volunteer to help run a meeting every week 19:58:26 Oh I would love to do that. Really busy these days but planning on getting on this once I get free. 19:58:31 Writing for Fedora Magazine is another great way to contribute 🙂 19:58:32 What's the difference between, let's say, codecs and drivers and software like mpv, vlc, telegram-desktop. that make the difference to the first being included in the "limited rpmfusion repos" and not the last ones? 19:58:37 I will, thanks pt2 19:58:40 Okay, there are 2 minutes left. Let's try to make the most of it. 19:58:42 For anyone looking to contribute: https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Welcome-to-Fedora 19:58:44 Hello 19:58:45 Are we moving to a new logo? 19:58:45 I'd be happy to get a clarification on the logo status :) 19:58:57 That was already asked and answered 19:58:59 @FillTheGap: that was answered, please check the logs later :) 19:59:05 PacPac: various things but software patents are generally the big issue. 19:59:07 mattdm answered that previously 19:59:08 Who should I ask to bridge the matrix Silverblue room to the IRC room? 19:59:18 Oh Thanks 19:59:35 @PacPacPacPac: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Third_Party_Software_Repositories 19:59:38 Someone in Silverblue team, probably. 19:59:54 Stefano[m]: from IRC to matrix, it's pretty easy, after the ama, i will try to fetch you the link :) 19:59:55 Before this group was cleared there were a few questions about copr. 19:59:55 Any plans to let copr become something more of an "aur"? (and no, I am not an arch koolkid) 19:59:56 Stefano[m]: or maybe in #fedora-admin? 20:00:13 siddharthvipul: tthanks! 20:00:17 systemd-homed has been mentioned already. Obviously there's lots of work and testing to be done.. I see systemd is built with systemd-homed.service, which means it's available to configure and use, and whether it will become a thing or not depends on: 20:00:17 Do you see systemd-homed as a good idea for user management in Fedora desktop editions (assuming it does its job perfectly)? 20:00:22 m​etalbunny: what specifically are you missing? 20:00:23 a *selected* set of tools were made available, but Fedora wants to promote FOSS, so installing rpmfusion is the extra step :) 20:00:45 Stefano[m]: if you want teleIRC which is telegram-IRC, we usually tend to rely on jwf (not volunteering him btw) 20:00:48 Folks, we're on time. 20:00:56 @metalbunny What would make it more AUR-like to you? 20:01:00 right now it needs a bit more pam and selinux integration, so it doesn't quite work out of the box yet 20:01:02 Defolos: ok will try there. Thanks. 20:01:07 skidnik: I see systemd-homed as a potentially good thing, if it does it's job well 20:01:08 @metalbunny: copr is designed to be an "outer ring", software there does not go through the fedora review process, or the QA process, so it can not be given the same status as software in the repos 20:01:08 Pavel (@p​aveljuska) has joined the Telegram Group! 20:01:38 * FranciscoD thinks a lot of these questions can be asked over the support channels 20:01:45 I think systemd-homed has a lot of benefits for particular use cases. I'm not sure we'd want it as a default on any Fedora Editions, but maybe a spin 20:01:50 use AskFedora: ask.fedoraproject.org :) 20:02:04 YES 20:02:04 Okay. Uhm. We should close now. 20:02:20 Thanks @Kohane ! 20:02:23 I think it would be making it a single repo, and not enabling one for (almost) every package 20:02:23 Ok, I've always though that some codecs from rpmfusion-free were included on the third pary repos. I see they are not :P 20:02:41 Oh, I want a tiny bit of feedback! 20:02:44 If you don't mind 20:02:49 @metalbunny: it isn't meant to be a single repo: there are thousands of coprs! 20:02:52 @mattdm @bcotton ? 20:03:01 @metalbunny We tried that with the "Fedora Playground" idea a few years ago and it didn't really catch on. 20:03:03 Maybe I got the concept wrong than 20:03:09 @Kohane Yes go for it 20:03:40 Is there anything you'd like to change or add to this, if it were going to be repeated in the future? Any hints, ideas or advice? 20:03:45 @metalbunny: copr allows you to provide rpm packages without them having to go through the review process, so the rules are relaxed, but it isn't in any way meant to be a replacement for the standard repositories 20:04:05 @metalbunny: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_package_collection_maintainers 20:04:07 So, I think this is more "interactive interview" than "AMA'. Which is fine. Let's just call it something other than an AMA. 20:04:18 FranciscoD: well, neither is AUR 20:04:22 AUE, "ask us everything"? 20:04:26 thanks to all the answers 20:04:27 Generally it seemed to go pretty well. The bridge running as admin obviously broke some of what you were trying to do 20:04:48 I love you all over on IRC but I think it'd be better to not have a bridge if that can't be muted. 20:04:58 @mattdm: when we had townhalls for elections, we had ops in the irc channels who would manage that, so maybe that can be done too 20:05:08 Probably also either fewer panelists, or fewer panelists at the same time. 20:05:13 I agree. 20:05:24 Rule #1 for running meetings: you're in charge. 😊 Feel free to rule the meeting with an iron fist. I'd also not let the IRC bridge write to the channel if possible. A smaller group with targeted questions would also help. Overall, this was good, though 20:05:34 How about a live stream next time? 20:05:35 that only works for the aur because of their design. when you install an aur package, aur helpers only check for updates to that package, not from the whole aur. the aur isn't really a repo in that sense, not like a yum repo is. 20:05:46 I am closing the meeting (or logging in this case) 20:05:50 franciscod: yeah, there was a separate channel for suggesting questions, iirc 20:05:51 are we good to do that? 20:05:58 siddharthvipul++ 20:06:05 THanks everyone! 20:06:08 AnXh3L0++ sidstond++ lailah++ irofedora++ michalrud++ x3mboy++ for moderating/organising and taking care of all things around it 20:06:08 siddharthvipul: Karma for lailah changed to 3 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:09 I have this floating in my mind, I need to see the details. Or maybe recording short videos. 20:06:12 siddharthvipul: Karma for irofedora changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:13 See you around! 20:06:14 siddharthvipul: Karma for michalrud changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:17 dofolos++ pbokoc++ pingou++ ankursinha++ mattdm++ bcotton++ jonatoni++ psabata++ mohanboddu++ tpopela++ maxamillion++ dustymabe++ ignatenkobrain++ eischmann++ for being around to answer questions in AMA 20:06:21 siddharthvipul: Karma for pbokoc changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:24 siddharthvipul: Karma for pingou changed to 12 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:26 Thanks everyone 20:06:26 siddharthvipul: Karma for ankursinha changed to 6 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:29 siddharthvipul: Karma for jonatoni changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:33 siddharthvipul: Karma for psabata changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:34 Thank you everyone for joining and responding to the questions from the community! 20:06:35 siddharthvipul: Karma for tpopela changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:38 Thank you all, for asking the question, for answering it and for moderating it 20:06:39 siddharthvipul: Karma for maxamillion changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:41 Thank you all! 20:06:42 siddharthvipul: Karma for dustymabe changed to 5 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:45 siddharthvipul: Karma for ignatenkobrain changed to 3 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:45 Okay, thank you so much again to everyone!!! Thanks for the time and good will and knowledge!!! 20:06:48 siddharthvipul: Karma for eischmann changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 20:06:52 See you around folks 20:06:54 How about a podcast episode next time! 20:06:58 #endmeeting