17:00:23 <roshi> #startmeeting Fedora Atomic WG
17:00:23 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb 15 17:00:23 2017 UTC.  The chair is roshi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:23 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:23 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_atomic_wg'
17:00:39 <roshi> #topic Roll Call
17:00:41 <bowlofeggs> .hello bowlofeggs
17:00:42 <zodbot> bowlofeggs: bowlofeggs 'Randy Barlow' <randy@electronsweatshop.com>
17:00:43 <trishnag> .hello trishnag
17:00:45 <jberkus> .hello jberkus
17:00:46 <bowlofeggs> more like bowlofdocker
17:00:46 <zodbot> trishnag: trishnag 'Trishna Guha' <trishnaguha17@gmail.com>
17:00:49 <zodbot> jberkus: jberkus 'Josh Berkus' <josh@agliodbs.com>
17:00:52 <roshi> .hello roshi
17:00:55 <zodbot> roshi: roshi 'Mike Ruckman' <mruckman@redhat.com>
17:00:59 <marc84> hi everyone
17:01:04 <trishnag> bowlofeggs: heh!
17:01:07 <bowlofeggs>17:01:09 <roshi> welcome marc84 :)
17:01:37 <dustymabe> marc84: hiya, welcome
17:01:42 <dustymabe> .hello dustymabe
17:01:43 <zodbot> dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' <dustymabe@redhat.com>
17:01:45 <jbrooks> .fas jasonbrooks
17:01:47 <zodbot> jbrooks: jasonbrooks 'Jason Brooks' <JBROOKS@REDHAT.COM>
17:01:55 <roshi> #chair trishnag jberkus dustymabe bowlofeggs jbrooks
17:01:55 <zodbot> Current chairs: bowlofeggs dustymabe jberkus jbrooks roshi trishnag
17:01:59 * tflink is lurking
17:02:24 <maxamillion> .hello maxamillion
17:02:25 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
17:02:26 <roshi> #chair tflink maxamillion
17:02:26 <zodbot> Current chairs: bowlofeggs dustymabe jberkus jbrooks maxamillion roshi tflink trishnag
17:02:39 <roshi> have a chair tflink - I find it easier to lurk while seated :p
17:02:52 <tflink> #unchair tflink
17:02:52 <zodbot> Current chairs: bowlofeggs dustymabe jberkus jbrooks maxamillion roshi trishnag
17:02:56 <tflink> no
17:02:58 <tflink> :)
17:03:08 <roshi> #topic Previous Meeting Follow-up
17:03:14 <roshi> (fine, be that way :p )
17:03:34 <roshi> #info according to the logs, we have no previous items to follow up on
17:03:39 <roshi> #link https://meetbot-raw.fedoraproject.org/teams/fedora_atomic_wg/fedora_atomic_wg.2017-02-08-17.00.txt
17:04:05 <dustymabe> roshi: want to give us an overview of how the VFAD went?
17:04:08 <bowlofeggs> tflink prefers to stand
17:04:19 <tflink> it makes me feel taller
17:04:26 <bowlofeggs>17:04:36 <roshi> Sure
17:05:05 <dustymabe> #topic recap of VFAD
17:05:09 <roshi> we had a VFAD last week to work on moving the Fedora-Dockerfiles from a github repo to pagure
17:05:49 <roshi> several of us pestered maxamillion will questions and we assigned maintainers to different Dockerfiles
17:05:56 <dustymabe> roshi++ and maxamillion++ and gholms++
17:05:57 <zodbot> dustymabe: Karma for roshi changed to 3 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:06:00 <zodbot> dustymabe: Karma for gholms changed to 1 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:06:08 <roshi> several BZ review tickets were started
17:06:11 <dustymabe> who else was there? jberkus for a littler while?
17:06:17 <roshi> work is still ongoing for several fronts
17:06:23 <maxamillion> \o/
17:06:26 <roshi> 1) Updating our docs and practices
17:06:28 <jberkus> nope, it was during FOSDEM
17:06:33 <maxamillion> there's a lot more to be done, but it wasn't bad for a first run at the VFAD
17:06:39 <roshi> 2) Getting all contianers to review
17:06:41 <dustymabe> thank you guys for taking initiative on that, I haven't been able to dig into the containerization efforts yet
17:07:06 * bowlofeggs containerizes dusty, but isn't sure if he should be a priveleged container or not
17:07:12 <dustymabe> :)
17:07:22 <roshi> 3) Pruning our list of Dockerfiles that we actually want/need to have in the build service
17:07:22 <maxamillion> :)
17:07:28 <dustymabe> one thing that I've noticed is that since we started this "effort" a lot of package maintainers have come forward
17:07:29 <maxamillion> roshi++
17:07:29 <zodbot> maxamillion: Karma for roshi changed to 4 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:07:33 <roshi> maxamillion: does that about cover it?
17:07:35 <dustymabe> to want to containerize their "thing"
17:07:43 <maxamillion> roshi: yessir
17:07:46 <dustymabe> the more we foster that the better
17:07:50 <roshi> that's true dustymabe
17:08:02 <maxamillion> dustymabe: +1
17:08:11 <roshi> hhorak stepped up to take over some of the containers he's already been working on
17:08:15 <roshi> reviews are ongoing
17:08:45 <roshi> next time we need to advertise it a bit more in advance
17:08:51 <maxamillion> dustymabe: I also hope to do a commops blog post at some point about a lot of this stuff now that we're getting it more formalized with better guidelines and such, I think we're better equiped to handle new users than before
17:09:06 <jberkus> suggested topic for 2nd VFAD: FDLIBS container review
17:09:20 <roshi> a whole vfad for one container?
17:09:26 <maxamillion> jberkus: that was the topic of the first one
17:09:39 <maxamillion> roshi: FDLIBS = Fedora Docker Layered Image Build Service
17:09:45 <roshi> lol
17:09:45 <roshi> oh
17:09:51 * roshi knows things too
17:09:52 <jberkus> is there a search I can do for all of the pending, proposed contianers?
17:09:53 <roshi> :p
17:09:54 <maxamillion> though I prefer FLIBS because we're not just targeting Docker, basically anything OCI runtime
17:10:14 <jberkus> maxamillion: well, just change the name then ...
17:10:25 <maxamillion> jberkus: https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/roadmap?status=Open&milestone=2017-02-09+VFAD
17:10:27 <roshi> FLIBS is also easier to say
17:10:51 <roshi> #info to look at the work done, look here: https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/roadmap?status=Open&milestone=2017-02-09+VFAD
17:11:02 <maxamillion> jberkus: I have in a lot of placed, if you see Docker in the name anywhere, let me know ... I probably missed it
17:11:15 <jberkus> thanks
17:11:20 <roshi> going to move onto the items we have for the meeting (there are 10)
17:11:45 <roshi> starting with the PRD
17:11:54 <roshi> #topic Atomic PRD work
17:11:56 <maxamillion> +1
17:11:57 <roshi> #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/170
17:12:10 <dustymabe> I added some comments to the PRD
17:12:21 <roshi> in the last comment, I added some items we needed to look at
17:12:22 <dustymabe> I do agree the thing is way too long (at least for my liking)
17:12:30 <roshi> on the wiki dustymabe ?
17:12:38 <dustymabe> roshi: no, in the etherpad
17:12:42 <dustymabe> or whatever that thing is
17:12:53 <roshi> ah
17:12:55 <dustymabe> the draft that jberkus made
17:13:12 <jberkus> it's an etherpad
17:13:15 <roshi> that's where I pulled the content from, then made some edits to the wiki syntax and threw it on there
17:13:29 <jberkus> I'd like to pretty much cut everything after the use cases
17:13:35 <dustymabe> are we not all using the same source
17:13:36 <roshi> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Roshi/QA/Atomic_PRD
17:13:37 <dustymabe> https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/fedora_cloud_PRD
17:13:39 <dustymabe> ?
17:14:08 <roshi> the goal, as I saw it, was for me to take the info out of the etherpad and put it in the wiki, and from there we make edits and work on it
17:14:19 <roshi> we can keep discussion of it on the Talk page for it
17:14:19 <jberkus> it was?
17:14:23 <jberkus> aha, ok
17:14:32 <roshi> before we move it to the actual cloud namespace on the wiki
17:14:47 <jberkus> I don't have objections to using the wiwki
17:14:52 <roshi> I figured it made sense to have it on the wiki since that's where it will live
17:15:11 <dustymabe> roshi: could it live in our pagure?
17:15:15 <dustymabe> for atomic-wg?
17:15:25 <roshi> it'll end up on the wiki, but there's no reason we can't work on it somewhere else
17:15:40 <roshi> it could be copied there, but every other thing for the other WGs is in the wiki
17:15:58 <dustymabe> ok, jberkus roshi, I made some comments in the etherpad, can you look at those and respond to the questions?
17:16:10 <dustymabe> and I can try to get the changes back into wherever we put this thing
17:16:13 <roshi> the wiki is/should be the place for information on the WG
17:16:38 <jberkus> roshi: that's fine, it's just that nobody else knew it was moving to the wiki so we were still editing the etherpad
17:16:46 <dustymabe> roshi: yeah, i think that used to be true. I wouldn't mind seeing us move to storing things in the atomic-wg pagure instance though
17:17:38 <dustymabe> ok so let's decide where to update things while we work on the drafts?
17:17:45 <dustymabe> etherpad or wiki?
17:18:14 <jberkus> well, the only reason to keep the etherpad version is if we think several people will be editing at once
17:18:15 <jbrooks> etherpad allows multiple people working at once
17:18:32 <jberkus> otherwise, since we need it wiki-formatted in the end, it makes sense to continue with the wiki version
17:18:35 <dustymabe> the question is: how close do we think we are ?
17:18:41 <dustymabe> jberkus: right
17:18:49 <dustymabe> if we think we are pretty close then lets stick with what roshi already did
17:18:50 <jbrooks> very close, I'd say
17:18:53 <dustymabe> ok then
17:18:55 <dustymabe> that settles it
17:19:08 <jbrooks> Well, it depends on how important your comments are, I guess
17:19:10 <jbrooks> heh
17:19:11 <jberkus> really, the PRD needs 2 things
17:19:17 <roshi> dustymabe: the wiki is kinda the focal point for people looking for information on Fedora, all the other WGs use it for their PRDs, so I'd like to see the information stay there
17:19:20 <jberkus> 1) we need to re-work the use cases to reflect Atomic
17:19:30 <jberkus> 2) We need to create new requirements
17:19:48 <dustymabe> jberkus: ok
17:19:58 <roshi> 3) the issues I raised in the last pagure comment
17:20:05 <dustymabe> should we make a VFAD tomorrow to just "do it"
17:20:24 <roshi> I'd like some more lead time on VFADs in the future, so I can better schedule my time
17:20:43 <dustymabe> roshi: indeed.
17:20:50 <jberkus> dustymabe: thursdays are terrible for me
17:20:55 <roshi> the rest of this week is pretty packed for me
17:20:56 <jberkus> that's my meeting hell day
17:21:04 <dustymabe> maybe we should just sit down after this meeting and knock it out?
17:21:13 <dustymabe> if anyone can?
17:21:26 <jbrooks> Yes
17:21:26 <roshi> how about this:
17:21:42 <roshi> who wants to take a first pass at 1) re-work use cases to reflect Atomic?
17:21:54 <roshi> and so on for 2 & 3
17:22:13 <roshi> at least leave comments on the issue for 3
17:22:16 <dustymabe> it might take longer to "rework use cases" than it would be to just throw away existing use cases and create new ones
17:22:24 <roshi> that's fine too
17:22:25 <dustymabe> anyway, let's do this after the meeting
17:22:42 <jberkus> dustymabe: the use cases are mostly still valid
17:22:44 <roshi> for this context, re-work means "edit that section of the wiki to make sense" :p
17:22:48 <dustymabe> k
17:22:52 <jbrooks> OK, let's stick w/ the etherpad for now then
17:22:52 <jberkus> they just need some container content
17:22:53 <roshi> make sense for atomic, that is
17:23:07 <jberkus> the requirements get thrown away and replaced
17:23:10 <roshi> it'd really be easier to edit it right in the wiki
17:23:17 <roshi> IMO
17:23:19 <jberkus> for requirements, we need to hash them out before we start trying to write text
17:23:37 <dustymabe> ok, next topic
17:24:40 <roshi> #topic Do we need/want an SSH container?
17:24:43 <roshi> #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/204
17:25:04 <roshi> I don't see the point of having this, and maxamillion and I were kinda on the fence about what the point was
17:25:17 <jberkus> roshi: I don't see the point either
17:25:29 <jberkus> I was wondering why it existed, I assumed just as a demo
17:25:29 <roshi> vote to stop having it?
17:25:29 <maxamillion> I'm going to vote "no" ... I don't think we need or want a ssh container
17:25:30 <roshi> +1
17:25:38 <maxamillion> +1
17:25:45 <jberkus> kill it with fire
17:25:57 <jbrooks> +1
17:26:01 <roshi> proposed #agreed - We will no longer have or maintain an SSH container.
17:26:17 <dustymabe> +1, until someone comes and asks us for it with a valid use csae
17:26:20 <roshi> #agreed - We will no longer have or maintain an SSH container.
17:26:38 <roshi> #topic Syncing with Dockerhub
17:26:40 <roshi> #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/202
17:27:02 <maxamillion> oh, I thought we covered that last week
17:27:05 <dustymabe> i think we mostly already agreed in the ticket
17:27:15 <roshi> seems like there's consensus to keep the old namespace
17:27:20 <dustymabe> maxamillion: want to comment and close it?
17:27:22 <roshi> who's going to drive this one forward?
17:27:25 <roshi> wfm
17:27:26 <maxamillion> dustymabe: please do
17:27:30 <trishnag> dustymabe: +1
17:27:32 <maxamillion> roshi: I am
17:27:36 <maxamillion> roshi: that's on my TODO list
17:27:48 <roshi> sounds good
17:28:22 <roshi> #action maxamillion to close pagure issue 202 and complete the sync
17:28:50 <roshi> #topic Interim container releases
17:28:53 <roshi> #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/200
17:29:50 <roshi> how long do the builds take?
17:30:45 <maxamillion> roshi: depends, normally 5 minutes or less
17:31:10 <maxamillion> roshi: also, for a point of reference ... there are currently only 4 container images ready for release so in the short-term this isn't going to be a big issue
17:31:12 <roshi> this is to rebuild all the packages included in the container?
17:31:22 <maxamillion> roshi: no, not the packages, just the container
17:31:26 <roshi> ah
17:31:36 <roshi> +1 then
17:31:37 <maxamillion> roshi: this one was also agreed upon last week ... I thought it was taken off the meeting roster
17:31:53 <maxamillion> I'm actually going to start writing the code for this today after lunch
17:31:56 <roshi> want to comment and close?
17:32:01 <maxamillion> will do
17:32:12 <roshi> we need to have the #agreed in the logs so I see that things were agreed :p
17:32:25 * roshi needs more memory :p
17:32:45 <roshi> #action maxamillion to comment and close this ticket as it had already been agreed on
17:32:58 <roshi> #agreed to rebuild the containers, as noted in the ticket
17:33:12 <maxamillion> +1
17:33:16 <roshi> don't need to do 180
17:33:26 <roshi> or 201
17:33:44 <roshi> which others do we need to do?
17:33:50 <roshi> fedora-motd?
17:34:06 <roshi> anyone have updates for the on-hold tickets
17:34:06 <roshi> ?
17:34:34 <dustymabe> can we just kill the IRC bot ticket?
17:34:35 <maxamillion> not I
17:34:58 <dustymabe> if nobody is working on it, means no one is going to work on it
17:35:13 <roshi> I just now saw the IRC bot ticket
17:35:47 <roshi> lemme take a look at this sometime
17:35:55 <roshi> I think we can get this with FMN
17:36:01 <dustymabe> ok
17:36:29 <dustymabe> fedora-motd is something else that is not really on a high priority list, but it is something we'd like to do, just needs some love that we don't have to give right now
17:36:46 <dustymabe> what's next?
17:37:15 <dustymabe> jberkus: this is an on hold ticket
17:37:17 <dustymabe> https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/fedora_cloud_PRD
17:37:19 <dustymabe> sigh
17:37:21 <dustymabe> https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/154
17:37:36 <roshi> download page clearer and openshift playground are the last two I see
17:37:37 <jberkus> not clear on why it's on hold
17:37:47 <jberkus> given that the download page has been completely revamped
17:37:52 <jberkus> OK to mark it complete?
17:37:58 <dustymabe> jberkus: yes please
17:38:35 <roshi> sweet
17:38:38 <roshi> #topic Open Floor
17:38:48 <dustymabe> I have one important item
17:38:54 <roshi> go for it
17:38:55 <dustymabe> if you all don't mind me going first
17:39:25 <dustymabe> #topic "support for N-1 Fedora in Atomic Land"
17:39:57 <dustymabe> so it has been my understanding for a while (although may not be a valid understanding) that we do not necessarily support F24 Atomic Host once F25 is released
17:40:20 <dustymabe> maybe it is only my understanding
17:40:32 <dustymabe> but I think we need to clarify our stance on this
17:40:41 <dustymabe> and also try to communicate that with our community
17:41:05 <dustymabe> I know this can also lead into discussion on whether we should have any "number based" versions of Atomic Host
17:41:10 <roshi> as it was released under the traditional fedora release ideology, I think we have to support it until F24 EOL
17:41:33 <roshi> point
17:41:53 <dustymabe> i'd rather not have the discussion about "rolling atomic release" right now
17:42:00 <roshi> and with 2wk releases, do those have a support window?
17:42:03 <dustymabe> so let's just try to limit it to our current policy
17:42:15 <jberkus> dustymabe: my perspective is that, until we can shift to "continuous upgrade" (which we can't until at least F27), we need to support one release back
17:42:30 <roshi> +1 jberkus, mine as well
17:42:39 <dustymabe> jberkus: but the problem is that we aren't even doing "releases" for f24 atomic
17:42:52 <jberkus> dustymabe: well, then let's define "support"
17:42:55 <roshi> stay consistent with the rest of Fedora until we're actually not doing what the rest of Fedora is doing
17:43:10 <jberkus> from my perspective, "support" means "we keep updating the ostree"
17:43:12 <dustymabe> roshi: we're already not doing what the rest of Fedora is doing
17:43:12 <jbrooks> If there's going to be only one Fedora Atomic, there should be only one
17:43:40 <dustymabe> support == putting out new releases
17:43:42 <roshi> typically it means critpath updates
17:44:01 <jbrooks> I seriously don't get what's so weird/disruptive about rolling right into the next release
17:44:09 <jbrooks> it's what ostree is all about
17:44:29 <jberkus> jbrooks: I don't think we can do that until we're over the hump of removing the Kube binaries
17:44:31 <roshi> if it wasn't clearly delineated at F24 release time that this Atomic release wasn't going to be the same, then we've kinda painted ourselves into a corner...
17:44:47 <dustymabe> roshi: i'm talking about the future
17:44:48 <jbrooks> jberkus, that hump exists either way
17:45:13 <jbrooks> we could include kube forever, or remove it whenever, totally separate from what version of fedora we're based on
17:45:28 <roshi> is there a hurdle to just doing os-tree upgrade on F24 and ending up on F25 at GA?
17:45:37 <jbrooks> nope
17:45:39 <dustymabe> no
17:45:41 <roshi> that's kinda what I'd expect from an Atomic host, aiui
17:45:42 <jbrooks> just... feels
17:45:44 <jbrooks> or something
17:45:49 <jberkus> jbrooks: not really.  if we release F26 with no Kube, but we keep updating the F25 OSTree, then users of F25 have 6 months to plan their upgrade to contianerized kube
17:45:53 <dustymabe> well.. let me qualify
17:46:03 <dustymabe> currently people "rebase" to 25 from 24
17:46:17 <dustymabe> there is a technical limitation of why people can't "upgrade" to 25
17:46:19 <dustymabe> from 24
17:46:25 <dustymabe> we use different ostree repos
17:46:50 <jberkus> dustymabe: that's fixable if we want to fix it
17:47:10 <dustymabe> anyway - let's try to boil down what our thoughts into a couple of statements
17:47:12 <jberkus> the hard part is: what happens when we release a feature change which breaks stuff?
17:47:13 <maxamillion> I want to propose that we eventually decouple Atomic from traditional fedora release numbers
17:47:19 <jbrooks> jberkus, this would be in a world where we support two releases at a time, which we don't
17:47:31 <jbrooks> containerized kube isn't such a big deal
17:47:52 <dustymabe> maxamillion: I feel like that could be a whole VFAD in itself
17:47:54 <maxamillion> I'd like Atomic to have it's own build target in koji so that packages aren't bound to the same release cadence as Fedora releases and the release version of the whole darn thing just be date based ... so 2017.02.15.whatever
17:47:56 <roshi> it seems to me that we need to do os-tree updates for F24 until F26 ships
17:47:58 <jberkus> jbrooks: moving to it when you have a production installation using non-containerized kube is a big deal
17:48:04 <maxamillion> dustymabe: oh no, that's like months worth of work
17:48:12 <maxamillion> dustymabe: we could have a whole VFAD to plan it though
17:48:13 <roshi> and urge people to rebase if they can
17:48:29 <roshi> how involved is it to just update the F24 trees?
17:48:35 <dustymabe> maxamillion: yes, we'd have to answer a lot of questions
17:48:44 <roshi> I mean, that's just pulling updated packages from the F24 repos, right?
17:48:49 <jbrooks> jberkus, is it? I admit I don't have a production setup, but in my tests, built-in to container via upgrade has been trivial
17:49:10 <dustymabe> sigh
17:49:20 <jbrooks> Anyway, we don't currently support/pay attn to two releases
17:49:22 * dustymabe wanted to limit the scope of this discussion
17:49:29 <jbrooks> Does f24 atomic work right now?
17:49:29 <jberkus> dustymabe: yah, good luck with that
17:49:33 <roshi> and for $future when we just have Atomic with no tie to Fedora numbers, we maintain that last one for the same window and then it becomes a non issue
17:49:41 <roshi> ^^ that make enough sense?
17:50:02 <maxamillion> dustymabe: +1
17:50:13 <dustymabe> roshi: no, we need a whole day to talk about what a non numbered release of FAH means
17:50:20 <roshi> right
17:50:21 <dustymabe> i'm not going to speculate
17:50:25 <roshi> that's not what I'm saying
17:50:26 <jbrooks> roshi, the thing is, we're not testing f24 right now, at all
17:50:26 <jberkus> ok, PROPOSAL: that, until we go to rolling releases, we commit to keeping the ostree for N-1 updated until the N+1 release.
17:50:36 <roshi> that's our fault though
17:50:36 <maxamillion> jberkus: also, remind me to ask you something about registry web UIs once we're done with this topic :)
17:50:38 <jbrooks> we've never tested two
17:50:49 <roshi> and why I asked how hard it was to update the f24 ostree
17:50:57 <jberkus> jbrooks: oh, point.  my personal experience is that f24Atomic works, but I'm not doing formal testing
17:51:04 <dustymabe> jberkus: right
17:51:13 <roshi> +1 to jberkus since that's exactly what I was also saying :p
17:51:16 <dustymabe> i'll call it life-support
17:51:25 <jbrooks> OK, so, start testing f24 atomic?
17:51:42 <dustymabe> ok, let me make a few statements
17:51:46 <jbrooks> And plan to do the same at least through the full life span of f26 at this point?
17:51:52 <roshi> when we say f24 atomic, we just mean the updated trees with new packages, right?
17:52:33 <dustymabe> right now our 'unclarified policy' is that "support" follows tradition N-1 + N Fedora support structure
17:52:49 <dustymabe> this also means that N-1 has been on "life support" because we don't really test it
17:52:57 <dustymabe> but it *is* getting updates
17:53:11 <dustymabe> I'd like to update our policy for the f26 release
17:53:24 <dustymabe> to explicitly not "life-support" the N-1 release
17:53:48 <roshi> clarification question
17:53:53 <dustymabe> sure
17:54:00 <roshi> so F26 would stop getting support when F27 comes out
17:54:11 <roshi> but F25 would get support for the N-1 period?
17:54:14 <dustymabe> right, that would be the "policy"
17:54:25 <dustymabe> roshi: yeah, because we haven't clarified it
17:54:27 <roshi> +1 for that
17:54:30 <dustymabe> we would have to do that
17:54:52 <dustymabe> jbrooks: jberkus maxamillion - thoughts?
17:55:20 <jberkus> roshi: seems like we need some minimal tests for N-1
17:55:40 <maxamillion> Fedora Two-Week Atomic Host since inception has never catered to N-1
17:55:43 <roshi> install an F24 host and do an os-tree upgrade, right?
17:55:49 <jbrooks> fine with me, better clarified than not. and of course, this seems like the absolute perfect time to transition into just one atomic but I get that you don't want to get into that (though I don't get why ;) )
17:55:50 <maxamillion> there's not even a compose to create those images anymore
17:55:58 <jbrooks> heh
17:56:11 <jbrooks> we can save that for atomic 47
17:56:27 <maxamillion> the whole point of 2WA was to move faster and not be bound to the legacy style of releasing the OS
17:56:27 <roshi> we don't need to rebuild images and test them, just the os-tree packages, right?
17:56:30 <dustymabe> jbrooks: :) - i just don't want to talk about it as a side conversation - i'd want to really brainstorm what it would look like
17:56:34 <maxamillion> now we want to tie it to N and N-1 support?
17:56:58 <dustymabe> maxamillion: jbrooks: schedule the VFAD and let's have a proper discussion on it
17:57:14 <maxamillion> +1
17:57:40 <jbrooks> all right
17:57:51 <dustymabe> ok I'll open a ticket with this information in it if you guys don't mind
17:58:05 <roshi> sounds great
17:58:05 <dustymabe> re: clarifying what support it for N and N-1 releases
17:58:10 <dustymabe> k
17:58:10 <roshi> we're low on time
17:58:14 <dustymabe> #topic open floor
17:58:20 <jberkus> ok, one more thing
17:58:25 <roshi> #action dustymabe to create a ticket with this discussion in it
17:58:32 <jberkus> I want to add more metadata requirements to the FLIBS dockerfiles
17:58:37 <jberkus> like install/run/description
17:58:39 <jberkus> as proposed
17:58:44 <roshi> ok
17:58:56 <jberkus> however, I've been trying to discuss this on email and not getting responses from the team
17:59:17 <jberkus> is there somewhere we can hash this out and get it done?  the longer we wait, the more dockerfiles *we* need to update
17:59:21 <dustymabe> email to coud list?
17:59:29 <roshi> musta glossed right over those jberkus, don't recall them
17:59:35 <jberkus> dustymabe: that's exactly what I ddid.  AFAICT, nobody reads the cloud list
17:59:51 <maxamillion> I think I responded .... I meant to
17:59:59 <jberkus> maxamillion: you did, nobody else did
18:00:02 <maxamillion> <3
18:00:22 <maxamillion> jberkus: and yes, it's also been my experience that getting anything done on the mailing list is a fools errand
18:00:29 <dustymabe> jberkus: depends on the topic. I've kinda been on the sidelines for the container stuff
18:00:53 <dustymabe> which sucks, but I've been trying to get a lot of other stuff done related to the host
18:00:54 <jberkus> the OwnCloud container is an excellent case of how the existing metata requirements aren't adequate
18:01:21 <jberkus> right, what I'm saying is that the mailing list is a bad channel, so how can I get this done?
18:01:22 <jbrooks> I find it easier to follow discussions on pagure
18:02:11 <dustymabe> yeah the owncloud ticket on pagure maybe if it is specific to that container, but the mailing list if it is an issue related to all containers?
18:02:32 <jberkus> dustymabe: I'm not using the mailing list.  it's a waste of time
18:03:17 <dustymabe> i have one more open item: i created a cloud-sig pagure issue tracker
18:03:28 <maxamillion> dustymabe: I have that exact problem, but from the other side ... I'm sideline about the host but in the weeds with the container stuff
18:03:35 <jberkus> I'll try opening a series of paguire issues, one for each proposed requirement.
18:03:48 <jberkus> that way we at least have clear decisions
18:03:52 <dustymabe> https://pagure.io/cloud-sig
18:04:03 <dustymabe> jberkus: +1
18:04:57 <maxamillion> jberkus: +1
18:05:19 <roshi> sounds good
18:05:27 * roshi sets the fuse
18:05:30 <roshi> 3...
18:05:34 <roshi> thanks for coming folks
18:05:36 <roshi> 2...
18:05:38 <jberkus> #action jberkus to open issues around each proposed dockerfile requirements change
18:05:49 <marc84> roshi: thanks
18:05:56 <roshi> np
18:05:59 <roshi> 1....
18:06:02 <roshi> #endmeeting