17:02:46 #startmeeting fedora_atomic_wg 17:02:46 Meeting started Wed May 24 17:02:46 2017 UTC. The chair is yzhang. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:02:46 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:02:46 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_atomic_wg' 17:02:53 #topic Roll Call 17:03:07 .hello dustymabe 17:03:08 dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' 17:03:17 .hello yzhang 17:03:18 yzhang: yzhang 'Yu Qi Zhang' 17:03:25 .hello mmicene 17:03:26 .hello roshi 17:03:26 nzwulfin: mmicene 'Matt Micene' 17:03:29 .hello miabbott 17:03:29 roshi: roshi 'Mike Ruckman' 17:03:30 .hello jberkus 17:03:32 miabbott: miabbott 'Micah Abbott' 17:03:35 jberkus: jberkus 'Josh Berkus' 17:03:38 nzwulfin: \o 17:03:53 dustymabe, o/ glad to be back 17:04:08 .hello maxamillion 17:04:09 maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' 17:04:34 .hello jasonbrooks 17:04:35 jbrooks: jasonbrooks 'Jason Brooks' 17:05:08 #chair yzhang dustymabe nzwulfin roshi miabbott jbrooks jberkus maxamillion 17:05:08 Current chairs: dustymabe jberkus jbrooks maxamillion miabbott nzwulfin roshi yzhang 17:05:27 #topic Action items from last meeting 17:05:33 dustymabe to migrate some cloud-base tickets to the cloud-sig tracker from the atomic-wg tracker 17:05:47 x3mboy and jberkus to hold meeting tomorrow to discuss marketing talking points 17:05:50 wait no 17:06:01 jbrooks to write project atomic blog post re #228, and add info to fedora PRD 17:06:06 jberkus to ask mattdm about how to get PRD approved 17:06:08 I think its those? 17:06:19 yep 17:06:21 and one more 17:06:27 yah, haven't been able to reach matt, please re-action 17:06:28 dustymabe to add a ticket to look into getting an easy-to-use 17:06:30 container review link after F26 17:06:41 dustymabe to put bz query for containers pending review on wiki 17:06:42 I sent a PR today: https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-site/pull/434 17:06:47 dustymabe to add a ticket to look into getting an easy-to-use container review link after F26 17:07:10 #action jberkus to ask mattdm about how to get PRD approved 17:07:15 is that the command? 17:07:23 yep 17:07:36 #info jbrooks opened a PR for a blog post about support policy in the future for atomic https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-site/pull/434 17:08:00 I migrated the final remaining cloud-base ticket to the cloud-sig repo 17:08:06 thanks dustymabe 17:08:32 https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/138 17:08:44 #info dustymabe migrated all remaining cloud-base tickets to the cloud-sig repo: https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/138 17:08:52 I also opened a ticket for getting an easy to use container review link 17:09:00 https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/275 17:09:11 am I supposed to info all completed items? 17:09:22 yzhang: you don't have to 17:09:36 i just info the one from jbrooks in case anyone wants to click the link and review his blog post 17:09:46 ok, do you want me to re-action that item just as a reminder 17:09:56 which item? 17:10:06 https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/275 17:10:11 since its for the f26 time frame 17:10:30 i'd say we'll revisit it later 17:10:40 don't worry about bringing it up next week 17:10:59 alright 17:11:04 good work on the action items 17:11:06 :D 17:11:13 #topic Enforce ENV usage as a requirement for release label 17:11:24 #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/277 17:11:42 maxamillion ^ 17:11:43 o/ 17:11:48 this makes sense to me 17:11:52 +1 17:11:55 the ticket is hopefully self explanitory 17:11:57 +1 17:12:03 +1 from me 17:12:21 I just wanted to make sure and get visibility and some discussion on it if necessary before I made changes to the guidelines 17:12:31 cool, thanks all 17:12:42 i updated the issue 17:12:44 do we already enforce the use of LABEL instead of Maintainer? 17:12:46 dustymabe: thanks 17:12:53 +1 17:12:56 roshi: huh? 17:12:56 we should do that as well, if we don't already 17:13:09 MAINTAINER in a dockerfile is depreciating soon 17:13:12 LABEL maintainer 17:13:19 so it should be LABEL maintainer 17:13:25 ahhh 17:13:26 rgr 17:13:32 didn't know if we set that as a hard or soft requirement 17:13:38 yeah, I'm +1 to that ... I'm not sure either 17:13:39 but it shouldbe hard, since it'll break things later 17:13:44 right 17:13:51 fwiw, the system container example has 'LABEL maintainer=blah' 17:13:56 lowercase vs uppercase 17:14:02 miabbott: +1 17:14:06 maxamillion's example also has LABEL MAINTAINER 17:14:07 lowercase please :) 17:14:08 just upper case 17:14:14 yeah, I'll update 17:14:25 do you want me to condense that into one action item maxamillion 17:14:28 just for tracking 17:15:35 #action maxamillion to update container guidelines to enforce ENV and label maintainer usage 17:15:39 I can always undo that 17:16:12 yzhang: it's good to reference the issue # 17:16:19 gotcha 17:16:30 it'll show up on the meetinbot logs just fine though 17:16:30 er 17:16:34 how do I unaction 17:16:40 but you won't see that in the action items next week 17:16:43 #undo 17:16:43 Removing item from minutes: ACTION by yzhang at 17:15:35 : maxamillion to update container guidelines to enforce ENV and label maintainer usage 17:16:50 thanks 17:16:53 :D 17:17:11 #action maxamillion to update container guidelines to enforce ENV and label maintainer usage https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/277 17:17:26 is that ok 17:17:29 yep 17:17:43 alright moving on 17:17:45 +1 17:17:45 #topic fedimg: don't use 'builder' instance for uploading AMIs 17:17:59 is sayan around today? 17:17:59 #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/269 17:18:09 I feel like this has been here for awhile 17:18:28 yzhang: it has - mostly here for progress updates 17:18:42 gotcha 17:19:03 paging sayan 17:19:18 jberkus: is he still on the west coast - or heading back to india? 17:19:38 he's at the PyCon sprints, so he's still in Portland 17:19:50 ok, but not here today 17:19:54 move on to next ticket 17:19:59 #topic clarify policy on atomic host support for older Fedora "number" releases 17:20:03 #link https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/228 17:20:05 I think 17:20:12 This is being blocked on jberkus's action? 17:20:25 to contact mattdm 17:20:34 #info please review jbrook's blog post on this topic: https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-site/pull/434 17:20:50 Yeah, that's that 17:21:16 yzhang: huh? 17:21:30 jberkus: sorry was just reading through last week's logs 17:21:35 yzhang: contact him how? I don't see that, and don't remember it 17:21:50 jberkus: you were going to contact matt about the PRD I think 17:21:58 I think there was a separate issue about ratifying the.. yeah 17:21:59 wasn't that the action item 17:21:59 jberkus to ask mattdm about how to get PRD approved 17:22:00 more importantly, have we integrated the policy into the PRD? 17:22:11 yzhang: that's separate from this issue 17:22:14 ah my bad 17:22:32 I was looking at it today, and the PRD actually says there'll be only current-stable releases 17:22:48 I was kind of wondering how historical/future-looking the PRD should be 17:23:05 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Atomic/PRD#Updates 17:23:49 jbrooks: so basically saying less is better? 17:23:56 i'm ok with that 17:24:09 Well, yeah, what the PRD says now is basically what we want 17:24:21 jberkus: ^^ ? 17:24:28 It doesn't describe NOW, but is this where we need to describe now? 17:24:29 yah, so just put the detailed policy on the wiki elsewhere 17:24:34 Right 17:25:17 I'm not very familiar with this, where would "elsewhere" be 17:25:25 PRD is supposed to be our goals, aims and whatnot, aiui 17:25:47 maybe https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Release_Life_Cycle 17:26:04 Though that doesn't seem like a doc to mod willy-nilly 17:26:14 yzhang: in teh atomic space on the wiki 17:26:20 to use a technical term 17:27:29 do we want to do this as an action item? 17:28:31 i'm thinking it should be 17:28:33 or do we want to get https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-site/pull/434/files 17:28:36 reviewed and merged first 17:29:11 and/or who wants to take the action item 17:29:20 We don't seem to have much in the Atomic space on the wiki 17:29:29 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Atomic 17:29:38 that's... spartan 17:30:04 jbrooks: our group tends to write blog posts instead of wiki pages 17:30:24 It almost seems like a topic for a vfad 17:30:29 we need an intern who we can task with transcribing the blog posts to the wiki ;-) 17:30:55 * yzhang looks at yzhang 17:30:56 hmm 17:31:29 yzhang: can new intern peter be convinced to work on this? 17:31:36 possibly 17:31:53 I thought there was more there 17:31:56 but probably not immediately since starting with docs before fully understanding everything is probably not a good idea 17:31:58 jberkus: not to get into a docs tooling discussion, but i would rather it not be wiki format 17:32:21 so we have things scattered from the old cloud wg and the new atomic wg 17:32:28 that wasn't really serious 17:32:42 new docs are asciiBinder, that's already chosen 17:32:55 one VFAD i want to do is have a short few hour session where we "find all relevant docs" to our WG and then create an index of all of them 17:33:04 that's right, we were using the cloud space still 17:33:05 and that can be our front page of our pagure repository 17:33:17 and update that space in the wiki 17:33:23 basically the front page of our pagure repo is links to all the relevant things about the WG 17:33:27 PRD, etc etc. 17:33:33 which should be in the wiki 17:33:42 right 17:33:45 since the wiki is where all new contributors go, and expect to find things 17:33:46 PRD is fine in the wiki 17:33:56 all the things on the pagure space ought to be there too 17:34:07 * roshi continues his defense of the wiki 17:34:08 roshi: could we just have the index in pagure? 17:34:09 :p 17:34:18 an index? sure 17:34:23 I'm sure there's a way to sync them 17:34:30 yeah that's all i really want 17:34:41 but the wiki is kinda the canonical source of truth about groups and what they do for all of Fedora 17:34:43 i'm fine if the PRD and other WG related things are in the wiki 17:34:55 i would prefer to have an index on the atomic-wg pagure landing page 17:34:58 Pagure and wiki can link to each other 17:35:01 problem solved 17:35:18 don't hurt me 17:35:18 and then for "real docs" like how-to's - i would prefer them to be on a readthedocs like site 17:35:32 +1 to that 17:35:36 roshi: ^^ 17:35:39 thoughts? 17:35:40 wiki 17:35:41 should we open an issue to keep track of all this 17:36:00 I think our SOPs and whatnot all need to be in the wiki 17:36:04 because that's where people look 17:36:29 Can't we just have a similar landing page on both the wiki and pagure 17:36:35 Which indexes all the other docs 17:36:37 and each other 17:36:46 sure - we just need to keep the wiki updated is all I'm saying 17:36:52 roshi: +1 17:36:56 yzhang: that seems hard to maintain 17:37:13 because this kind of stuff is making our wiki get further and further away from becoming as good as the arch wiki 17:37:16 which we should all want 17:37:24 well, all want ours to be that good 17:37:36 roshi: it would be nice if the wiki was canonical, but the first page of google results for 'fedora atomic host' don't even have a link to the wiki 17:37:40 I want docs as good as those, but meh on wiki 17:37:45 I like git 17:37:55 Sayan confirms no update to his ticket 17:38:00 roshi: i think those google results are going to steer folks elsewhere 17:38:01 But surely a script or something can keep them in sync 17:38:03 because we don't put anything there 17:38:15 ok - this is worth it's own discussion sometime 17:38:20 that's not an indictment against the wiki, it's our failing to update it like we should 17:38:21 vfad 17:38:23 i'm going to propose a VFAD 17:38:25 I keep saying I'm going to build a tool that allows for the import of docs into the wiki from arbitrary pagure repos in some whitelisted set of accepted markup languages 17:38:29 but ... you know ... time 17:38:29 can I action that dustymabe 17:38:30 roshi: agreed 17:38:41 yzhang: the vfad? 17:38:44 it would basically be pandoc with some magic on top 17:38:48 if people come to the project for another group - they'll get to the wiki, then look for Atomic because they heard about it and find nada 17:38:49 yeah, just to track everything we discussed 17:38:51 in a sense 17:38:52 dustymabe: for docs? 17:39:20 jberkus: well - the vfad was original for finding relevant WG docs 17:39:20 vfad is fine 17:39:27 and creating an index of all the content on our wiki 17:39:33 and updating/cleaning the wiki space 17:39:35 ah, ok 17:39:36 so that we can easily find everything 17:39:41 and all other places as well 17:39:49 i assume we can have a 'docs dicussion' as part of that 17:40:12 #action dustymabe to propose a VFAD for wiki and docs discussion 17:40:17 sounds good 17:40:32 any objection to moving on? 17:40:38 3 17:40:39 2 17:40:40 1 17:40:49 that's all the meeting tagged items 17:40:55 anything else before open floor? 17:41:22 #topic open floor 17:41:27 i have sometime 17:41:30 something* 17:41:32 sigh 17:41:34 * roshi has nothing he doesn't think 17:41:55 so we need to schedule a test day for 26 atomic host 17:42:05 could be worth also testing out the cloud base image as part of that 17:42:27 roshi: when do you think would be a good time to set that up? 17:42:32 we can propose a test-day through the QA group 17:42:40 after Beta, I'd say 17:42:40 * jberkus has an item 17:43:00 roshi: so something like next friday or the following friday? 17:43:04 * jbrooks has a micro item 17:43:11 * yzhang has a micro item 17:43:13 depends on if we slip or not come tomorrow 17:43:22 dustymabe: do we have the use case of "updating a f25 atomic host to f26 atomic host" ... possibly with some stuff installed and running (k8s, openshift origin, $other) ? 17:43:27 let's just plan for the following friday 17:43:42 after beta is a Go? 17:43:47 maxamillion: yes - we need to make sure that works 17:44:01 perhaps we should be testing that now 17:44:01 roshi: yeah, theoretically even though atomic is not part of the beta 17:44:06 miabbott: +1 17:44:08 friday the 9th of June? 17:44:12 I just mean for people to have time 17:44:24 dustymabe: +1 17:44:24 as in I'm swamped with release validation and CI stuff 17:44:34 but when we release beta, that'll ease a bit 17:44:43 roshi: indeed - just want to make sure we don't wait too late 17:44:50 sounds like we're in consensus 17:44:52 because otherwise we won't be able to get changes in 17:45:10 # dusty and roshi to plan test day for coming weeks 17:45:11 right, before Final Freeze for sure 17:45:18 #action dusty and roshi to plan test day for coming weeks 17:45:26 #chair 17:45:26 Current chairs: dustymabe jberkus jbrooks maxamillion miabbott nzwulfin roshi yzhang 17:45:48 ok jbrooks jbrooks you had items? 17:45:52 jberkus next 17:45:53 yes 17:45:53 I think 17:46:05 the CfP for Fedora Flock is open 17:46:07 meant to say jbrooks jberkus 17:46:15 dustymabe: it's a chronic problem 17:46:23 * roshi offers maxamillion to do all the talks 17:46:25 damn jbs 17:46:34 https://www.flocktofedora.org/ 17:46:35 roshi: sacrificial lamb? 17:46:39 jbieber 17:46:41 something like that :p 17:46:52 what talks do we want to submit? 17:46:52 the plan for this flock is to have entirely work-session type workshops 17:46:57 roshi: what? 17:46:59 not standard talks 17:47:16 as in, basically, an all-mini-FAD Flock 17:47:18 ah 17:47:23 interesting 17:47:27 yeah, having an all-workshop flock will be interesting 17:47:32 Flock 2017 is a more action-oriented event than previous years. This affects the types of session proposals that will be accepted. A team status report is less likely to be accepted than a collaborative team working session or a workshop. 17:47:40 yeah, TBH i like it the way it was 17:47:47 dustymabe: same 17:48:00 well, seems good for our group. I'd like to coordinate on proposals from the Atomic WG 17:48:26 Open a pagure issue to track maybe? 17:48:31 as in, specific things we'd like to get included in Flock. like, for example, a "contianerize an application" workshop 17:48:34 yzhang: sounds good 17:48:39 also, an #action 17:48:41 guess I won't submit the talk I was going to 17:48:45 since it's a normal talk 17:48:57 #action everyone to discuss flock proposals next week 17:49:03 lol 17:49:07 .fas everyone 17:49:07 roshi: cox 'kis kiki' - sandyrockseveryone 'Sandeep' 17:49:08 roshi: let's talk about how to re-orient it 17:49:11 jberkus too fast for me 17:49:15 lol 17:49:26 my talk jberkus ? 17:49:41 FYI, I have some budget to get critical people to Flock if their departments don't have budget 17:49:42 can do after 17:49:42 I'd like to see a "how to create a system container" talk 17:49:49 and Bex has some for outside contribs 17:49:50 or group workshop or whatever 17:49:51 maxamillion: +1 17:49:59 maxamillion, +1 17:50:04 i think we should still submit talks, but also plenty of workshops as well 17:50:05 I could participate in that 17:50:16 that'd be a good one 17:50:22 woohoo \o/ 17:50:26 and "How to know if you need a system container or not" 17:50:35 roshi: +1 17:50:54 Perhaps I should invite giuseppe onboard this meeting? 17:51:03 or well 17:51:11 It's pretty late for him 17:51:19 yzhang, we could start an issue to discuss it 17:51:24 do it async 17:51:33 well we have an action for the proposals 17:51:43 ok - jbrooks you had an item? 17:52:13 yes 17:52:25 btw i honestly still think a 'what is atomic host' talk will be valuable - something like what I did for the navops roadshow 17:52:25 https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2017-f4ccc7cb91 this runc needs a bit more karma 17:52:31 plenty of people still don't know 17:52:41 yeah 17:52:49 and "Why would I want to use it? 17:52:50 " 17:52:51 But how to make that a workshop 17:53:09 i'm saying - would still be nice to have it be a talk 17:53:14 apparently there will be *some* talks 17:53:20 help people port things to atomic? 17:53:35 set up a k8s cluster in under X minutes? 17:53:35 "Atomic vs. Server: Fight!" 17:53:42 haha 17:53:46 is there going to be a keynote workshop? 17:53:50 * roshi ducks 17:53:50 anyway, I think we've talked this one out, more on #fedora-cloud 17:53:56 yep 17:54:03 alright one last thing from me 17:54:05 jbrooks is next I think 17:54:12 I already said mine 17:54:16 the runc karma 17:54:17 https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2017-f4ccc7cb91 karma please 17:54:17 ok 17:54:33 anyways, does anyone want to review: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1452221 17:54:42 its the container-engine (docker) container 17:54:47 system container 17:55:35 I'll take that as a maybe 17:55:39 lol 17:55:46 but do check it out if you have the time 17:55:49 that's all 17:55:55 anything else? 17:55:56 yzhang: i really do want to review it 17:56:09 * dustymabe fails at life 17:56:43 dustymabe: pssh other than roofing I'd say you're living life to the fullest 17:56:47 well maybe too much work 17:56:54 yzhang, I'll have a look at it 17:57:00 thanks jbrooks! 17:57:06 alright giving it 30 secs 17:57:10 for anything else 17:57:35 ending meeting in 3 17:57:36 2 17:57:37 1 17:57:38 #endmeeting 17:57:41 yzhang: ooh, yes, I'd love to try it 17:57:43 #endmeeting