18:30:26 #startmeeting Fedora Board IRC meeting 18:30:26 Meeting started Wed Jan 25 18:30:26 2012 UTC. The chair is jsmith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:30:26 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:30:34 #meetingname fedora_board 18:30:35 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board' 18:31:30 #chair jreznik ke4qqq pbrobinson abadger1999 gomix rudi jds2001 rdieter cwickert 18:31:30 Current chairs: abadger1999 cwickert gomix jds2001 jreznik jsmith ke4qqq pbrobinson rdieter rudi 18:31:39 #topic Roll call (for Board members) 18:32:01 * jreznik is present (twice;-) 18:32:04 * abadger1999 will be here in 5 minutes or so 18:32:04 * jsmith is here 18:32:59 * rdieter here 18:33:00 * pbrobinson is here 18:33:08 * ke4qqq is here 18:33:37 While we're getting started -- just a word of caution 18:33:56 Freenode seems to be pretty wonky today, so we'll do our best to continue the meeting in spite of netsplits, etc. 18:34:21 yup 18:34:55 OK, let's go ahead and get started 18:35:30 #topic Ticket 128: Community Domain Request 18:35:36 jsmith: thanks for that heads up, I thought it had been me 18:35:40 * cwickert is here 18:35:47 This is a community domain request for in.fedoracommunity.org 18:36:07 Right now, they're just pointing it at fudcon.in (the site they developed for FUDCon Pune and a couple of other FADs) 18:36:29 Thoughts? Concerns? 18:37:16 * jsmith is +1 18:37:38 * ke4qqq has no opposition to this - +1 18:37:39 jsmith: I thought they were suppose to have an outline site of what they were planning on putting there 18:38:13 Right... and www.fudcon.in is that outline site 18:38:19 +1 do it 18:38:42 Which, while not ideal, is good enough for me 18:38:48 OK, +! 18:38:51 +1 even 18:39:00 +1 18:39:27 nice one +1 18:39:35 Ok, that's a quorum 18:39:47 #agreed to approve ticket 128 for in.fedoracommunity.org 18:40:09 #topic Ticket 129: Community domain for Hungary 18:40:27 Similar ticket, only this one is for Hungary 18:40:30 Sample site is at http://sysadmin.vinfo.hu/ 18:40:45 can we please have links to the trac when we discuss tickets here? 18:41:07 #link 18:41:08 looks fine to me +1 18:41:13 cwickert: Sure, although I'm not sure it helps that much for non-board members 18:41:17 @link https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/129 18:41:22 +1 18:41:22 #link https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/129 18:41:23 * ke4qqq is apparently fail at typing 18:41:37 jsmith: it helps for members 18:41:41 * jds2001 is here, sorry 18:41:42 +1 18:41:56 * ke4qqq thinks it looks good - despite not being able to parse +1 18:41:57 +1 from me (with a note that the footer is slightly confusing, because it says it's not affiliated with the Fedora Project, but then the other links in the footer are all fedoraproject.org links) 18:42:17 +1 18:42:43 jsmith: I think the footer is a requirement from the TLA 18:43:02 footer is req 18:44:27 Ok, we're at +6 on this one as well 18:44:33 Any objections? 18:44:49 * abadger1999 sees +5 18:44:55 +1 forre 18:45:02 +1 18:45:14 abadger1999: ke4qqq's vote was hard to see :-) 18:45:16 for records:-) 18:45:29 #agree to approve ticket 129 for Hungarian community site 18:45:31 * abadger1999 notices now ;-) 18:45:39 #agreed to approve ticket 129 for Hungarian community site 18:46:07 #topic Ticket 131: retire torrent seed? 18:46:10 #link https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/131 18:46:20 Mailing list discussion at http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2012-January/011194.html 18:46:40 * ke4qqq is happy for infra to make changes as they see fit. 18:47:03 * jds2001 too 18:47:19 * pbrobinson is too 18:47:30 * jds2001 had a concern about folks putting up rogue torrent files, but hey, they can do that today 18:47:55 it is incumbent upon the downloader (via whatever means) to verify that they got real Fedora content. 18:48:04 Yeah... 18:48:17 unfortunate, but supports infra's proposal. 18:48:19 * jreznik still thinks torrents are somehow in spirit of foss 18:48:20 The stats show the median numbers -- do we have any idea of peak usage (around release time, etc.) 18:48:42 nirik: Do you have additional torrent stats? ^ 18:49:14 there were some... but not sure where we have them 18:49:20 they do spike way up on release day. 18:49:26 but down like the next day 18:49:59 I can get you a graph, but don't have it handy. ;( 18:50:10 * jsmith is sad to see the torrents go, but understands that it is a big burden on Infra 18:50:45 torrent seems to just be declining in popularity... 18:50:47 nirik: speaking for myself - I don't need to see it, I assume that you and the other infra folks are able to make decent decisions on what to support and what not to. 18:50:59 Raw stats data is here: http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/stats/ 18:51:00 there was a question about spins distribution. Was that answered (sorry, don't remember if it was) 18:51:20 pbrobinson: spins are currently available direct from us and from sites that mirror the 'alt' content. 18:51:35 which is much smaller than mirrors our main content, but perhaps we could increase that. 18:51:43 But you'll have to operate on it to get a useful representation 18:51:56 * jreznik would change torrent for more visibility of spins as spins are the true fedora value :) 18:52:16 currently spins.fedoraproject.org offers both torrent and direct download for spins. 18:52:44 I think that closing down the torrent seed is the wrong way to go 18:52:57 Instead we should advertise it more 18:53:04 * cwickert uses the torrent every time 18:53:25 cwickert: I use it as well, but I also am not helping infra to run it. 18:53:37 cwickert: so you think the extra work to support it ... is worth it? 18:53:42 * jsmith uses it almost every release as well 18:53:44 another possibility I think I mentioned, but will say again here is that we could setup a magnet link. That would require a torrent seed for the torrent part of it however. 18:53:52 * jreznik is trying to help seeding but it's true torrents are really throttled everywhere due to abuse by ilegal content :( 18:54:14 how much maintenance does the seeder need? 18:54:18 * nirik used to use them, and seeds, but direct download has gotten much faster. 18:54:48 cwickert: well, our old rhel5 one was using bittorrent. It's no longer free. 18:54:57 but direct downloads are way more unreliable. I'm afraid we'll get a lot it "this doesn't boot" problems due to bad downloads 18:55:13 we have a working instance with rhel6 now with opentracker... but it's pretty poor software. It doesn't work with ipv6 and has lots of quirks. 18:55:14 nirik: so if doing a magnet link, is less work for you? 18:55:16 nirik: I seem to have missed that part of the problem 18:55:36 nirik: opentracker does work with IPv6 if compiled in 18:55:51 if not, that's a bug that needs to be fixed I think 18:55:53 cwickert: if compiled into it's static copy of libowfat. ;( 18:56:02 yes, it's a mess and should be fixed. 18:56:07 ah, I remember 18:56:13 nirik: does transmission provide that functionality? 18:56:25 or deluge? 18:56:45 booth offer a web-only package 18:56:46 rdieter: magnet is basically a link that has "you can get this shasum from any of these places" You can list a torrent seed to ask for the file, or direct download. 18:56:50 s/booth/both 18:57:11 neither one would work for us on rhel6. 18:57:24 * nirik should have asked skvidal to come to this meeting, as he did evaluation on this. 18:57:29 * ke4qqq wonders why the board is trying to find alternative software for infra to use. 18:57:49 * rdieter agrees with ke4qqq 18:58:00 deluge is not available in epel 18:58:13 transmission couldn't do unattended seeding. 18:58:22 ke4qqq: +1 18:58:24 there was a suggestion of rtorrent in a screen, but thats horrid 18:58:32 Proposal: The Board is comfortable with Infra making the decision on whether to retire the torrent seed 18:58:40 +1 18:58:44 +1 18:58:53 hold on for a moment 18:58:56 we do have it working now, so we could move it on further if the board thought it was needed. 18:59:15 what are the consequences for us? does this mean there will be no more torrent links for download? 18:59:57 * cwickert is afraid he doesn't understand the impact of this change 19:00:17 we could still make .torrent files if that was usefull... but not sure it is. 19:00:24 as nirik says - it's ready, can we try it and decide later based on how it works? 19:00:52 if it will be really hard to maintain, then ok... but let's see it first 19:01:05 OK, alternate proposal: The Board suggests that the Infra team try to make something work for F17, and come back with suggestions after F17 release 19:01:09 nirik: is this a yes or no? 19:01:11 well, the issue is then 2 fold: a) will it be difficult to update and maintain, and b) will enough people use it to make it worth while. 19:01:40 Err... 19:01:43 cwickert: it's either. ;) torrent files and torrent seeder server are 2 seperate things. 19:01:44 this brings me back to the question of maintenance: how much work does it take 19:01:50 * ke4qqq hates to call a point of order, but there's not a tally from the previous proposal yet 19:02:09 Amend alternate proposal with some idea of what would constitute enough usage. 19:02:54 and as it stands it appears three +1 - and no negative (hence abstentions) which would pass. 19:03:07 I am -1 I think 19:03:17 nothing in http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2012-January/011194.html is really convincing me 19:03:23 I'm closer to the second proposal than the first 19:03:24 ke4qqq: would it given jsmith's alt proposal 19:03:25 ke4qqq: I'm -1 with latest jsmith and abadger1999 extended proposals :) 19:03:57 jreznik: :) 19:04:11 sorry, I was interrupted at my desk.... 19:04:18 * cwickert thinks we have 4 proposals in the mail already 19:04:24 * nirik would suggest if we keep it for f17, that all folks who said they use it try direct downloads too and see which offers a better experence for them. ;) 19:04:38 nirik: I like that 19:05:03 nirik: I think that's fair 19:05:05 nirik: I don't need to try it, I can tell you that direct downoads will not work for me for the dvd 19:05:07 * rdieter would prefer to keep torrents available for f17 if at all possible 19:05:17 cwickert: why not? 19:05:19 and for many people in Germany neither 19:05:21 cwickert: what happens? 19:05:24 there are german mirrors.... 19:05:43 you get disconnected every 24 hours and the direct download is broken 19:05:46 * gomix here.. sorry got it late 19:05:47 mirrors hosting .iso's get hammered bad. 19:06:03 There's always the issue of some browsers/downloaders not handling DVD-sized files well 19:06:08 (especially on other operating systems) 19:06:08 last release we got hammered, but as far as I can tell we didn't drop anything. 19:06:15 * jreznik uses red hat's local globalsync mirror but at home tries to use torrent and offer it even on shitty adsl :) 19:06:28 the iso takes under an hour for me to direct download at home. 19:06:32 * rdieter is naughty, and purposefully omits serving .iso's shortly after release for our local mirror 19:06:33 * gomix my two cents, mirrors in latam are so slow.. torrent is our way to get decent download speed 19:06:53 or let me put it differently: not all mirrors support resuming downloads and disconnects every 24 hours are the de-facto standard in many european countries 19:07:07 * pbrobinson mostly uses "yum upgrade" but does combination of wget for some and seeds a number of spin torrents 19:07:14 cwickert: does it really take 24+ hours???? 19:07:29 jds2001: Not all of us have high-bandwidth connections 19:07:47 jds2001: that's not the point, the question is if the disconnect happens within the say 6-8 hours you are downloading 19:07:57 ahh yeah 19:07:58 jds2001: From home, it would take me over 24 hours to download the DVD image 19:08:35 * jsmith often does a direct download, watches it fail, then uses the torrent to fill in the missing pieces 19:08:42 the speed of a connection isn't going to be any different no matter torrent or http is it? 19:08:56 nirik: torrents are easily resumable. 19:08:57 nirik: yes 19:09:00 I would also think you can resume from almost any mirror these days 19:09:07 nirik: this is another issue 19:09:30 while I can limit the bandwith with bittorrent, I cannot easily do it with the direct download 19:09:33 nirik: what about client support for that? I'm not aware of any browser in Windows that will do that (or Linux for that matter) 19:09:48 I know you can from our download servers. 19:09:54 * jds2001 uses curl if he needs to resume 19:10:02 is there any interest to finish the vote on proposals already given? 19:10:04 jds2001: That doesn't work on some mirrors :-( 19:10:11 * gomix please recap the proposal 19:10:23 rdieter: before I make a decision I need to know the impact of this change and this is not clear from any of the proposals 19:10:29 wget -c works well 19:10:30 so, I think we'd be better served not discussing technical details here, take that to advisory-board list 19:10:31 * jds2001 is lost on the proposals too :) 19:10:39 jreznik: depends on the mirror 19:10:51 and defer any decision-making for now 19:10:51 many new comers dont even know what curl or wget is 19:11:14 gomix: or even have access to such tools (i.e. Windows) 19:11:14 Proposal 1 was: The Board is comfortable with letting the Infra team make the call 19:11:49 Proposal 2 was: The Board asks the Infra team to try to use the current solution for F17 release (even if it's IPv4 only, etc.), and get feedback after release 19:12:03 jsmith: are we now changing that to "postpone decision to post f17 release based on stats" ? 19:12:24 * cwickert wonders why we don't go with any of the proposals in the mail 19:12:35 And Proposal 3 is: Table a decision pending further discussion on the mailing list 19:13:38 I'll add one: Proposal 4: ask infra to make sure they have a wide audience, and discuss this broadly before making their decision. 19:13:43 nirik: back to my question: can you outline the impact a little? I mean, what does change for our users? 19:14:15 cwickert: there wouldn't be any official torrent seed. Possibly no .torrent files to download. There would be direct download links. 19:14:30 then I am definitely -1 19:15:01 cwickert: to which proposal? 19:15:25 * jds2001 interprets cwickert's -1 to be to all of them 19:15:29 the idea in general. 19:16:11 I think nirik described the outcome of Proposal 1 so cwickert is voting -1 to that. 19:16:26 ke4qqq: all of them if any of them includes closing down the service 19:16:44 +1 cwickert 19:17:22 * jreznik thinks it's really time to vote on fab list as it becomes mes here 19:17:27 s/mes/mess 19:17:57 jreznik: Vote for just one of the four proposals? Vote for multiple proposals? Range voting? 19:18:13 cwickert: even if infra comes to the conclusion that continuing to provide a torrent seeder is unsupportable? 19:18:46 * jsmith would prefer to see more discussion on the mailing list, and have each board member vote for *one* proposal in next week's meeting 19:19:10 * ke4qqq would prefer to see us mind our own business and those who care to sway infras mind. :) 19:19:18 nirik: that's close to reality right? (or not?) 19:19:31 rdieter: if it comes unsopportable then there's no argue 19:19:41 gomix: yep 19:19:54 rdieter: it's not to that point yet, it's just it's not easy. ;) and it's not getting nearly as much use as it used to... so this seemed like a time to bring it up and see if it's still desired... 19:20:07 ok 19:20:12 rdieter: before can agree to the unsupportable I'd like to know what options infra has investigated and why the current setup - even if it is painful - no longer works 19:20:16 it sounds like some folks really like it still. 19:20:24 nirik: I think it's desired, at least from the small sample here 19:20:35 count me JS 19:20:47 s/js/jsmith 19:21:02 * cwickert thinks we are closing down too many services recently... 19:21:21 jsmith: one proposal from the meeting log or from the mail? 19:21:23 cwickert: who is going to maintain them though - the people doing the work are making those decisions 19:21:42 hi? 19:21:47 cwickert: From the meeting log -- the four proposals I (and ke4qqq) outlined above 19:22:10 skvidal: so, question was asked why deluge or transmission don't work for us... and why opentracker is difficult. 19:22:28 so we're talking about different parts 19:22:35 jsmith: and what if I cannot subscribe to *any* of the 4 propsals? 19:22:49 cwickert: Abstain from voting? 19:22:52 opentracker is the tracker - the part which manages which seeds/peers are connected and lets us track data on them 19:23:02 cwickert: came up with a fifth 19:23:04 cwickert: vote -1 to all. 19:23:07 cwickert: Add a fifth proposal? 19:23:19 jsmith: fine with me 19:23:38 ke4qqq: fair enough, but what does "maintenance" actually mean? 19:23:39 deluge is a gtk torrent client - not sure how that's releveant 19:24:04 skvidal: it has console and webfrontends, too 19:24:04 transmission is not setup to be able to run sanely as an unmanaged process 19:24:20 cwickert: depends on it. /me doesn't want to see the board mandate something to infra. IMO if we want something done that means we need to go do it. 19:24:22 cwickert: and it requires far too much to install and trust on a server 19:24:55 the problems with opentracker 19:24:57 skvidal: thanks, these are basically the infos I miss in the ticket. I'd like to know what options have been investigated before I agree to closing the service down 19:25:19 1. the ipv6 support is through libowfat - which is staticlly added to the pkg (womp womp) 19:25:39 2. opentracker's configuration is almost all compiled in - there is a config file - but most of the options are meaningless w/o compiling them 19:26:22 3. like a lot of trackers they are overwhelmingly focused for clients who are.... let's just say they do not necessarily know the copyright provenance of their files 19:27:06 so while opentracker is probably the best maintained tracker 19:27:08 skvidal: can you add all this to the ticket? It looks like we are deferring the decision anyway 19:27:11 it's not what I would think of as stellar 19:27:23 /me has a hard stop now, sorry :( 19:27:29 * ke4qqq is approaching one as well 19:27:36 Right... I'm not sure the Board needs to take time in the meeting to go into all the technical details anyway 19:27:46 +1 19:27:47 But many of us would love more details on a mailing list or in a ticket 19:27:55 * ke4qqq feels like we turned a board meeting into an infra one. 19:27:56 Are we agreed to defer the decision then? 19:27:58 another idea - is you could trust us to have made a reasonable decision and just say yes? 19:28:01 19:28:04 * skvidal retracts that statement 19:28:06 skvidal: proposed 19:28:09 skvidal: That was proposal number 1 19:28:24 apparently not w/o justification which means 1 is already out 19:28:40 * ke4qqq doesn't think it's any of our business - and figures most of the infra folks are smart enough on their own without our meddling 19:28:55 we are servicing ruffly 200 clients at any one time 19:29:04 I can give per-day completed download stats, too 19:29:13 Yes, we have those 19:29:20 okije doke 19:29:23 * jsmith has been looking at them 19:29:32 I'll update the ticket or whatever is needed 19:29:35 propsal: defer decision in order to allow board members add their question to the ticket and let infra respond to them 19:29:48 s/question/questions 19:29:58 * abadger1999 adds skvidal as a cc on the ticket so he can see it. 19:30:04 abadger1999: thx, I think. :) 19:30:09 :-) 19:30:34 would there be a problem making this ticket public? others might wish to comment to? or would that be too much noise? 19:30:51 nirik: Or we just have the conversation on the fab list 19:30:53 nirik: If it's possible to make specific tickets public in the new trac, I'd be all for it. 19:30:56 hum, or perhaps thats not posible. 19:31:05 It wasn't possible with the old trac, though. 19:31:07 jsmith: thats fine too. I did start a thread there. 19:31:25 * jsmith proposes that we all continue the conversation on nirik's thread in the f-a-b list 19:31:33 +1 19:31:37 ok +1 19:31:39 +1 19:31:46 +1 19:32:23 +1 19:32:48 +1 19:32:49 * ke4qqq will abstain, but notes he wishes that we'd let infra manage this 19:33:02 With my vote, that puts us at +7 for deferring the decision until further discussion on the list 19:33:17 And with that, we're out of time -- but I have one quick announcement before we break 19:33:45 The Red Hat legal team, Spot, myself, and several others have been working on an updated set of Trademark Guidelines 19:33:56 I'll email the link to the f-a-b list 19:34:21 Please take some time to review the updated guidelines this week, so that we can get any proposed changes back to the legal folks, and hopefully vote next week. 19:35:02 #topic Any other last-minute business? 19:35:19 Since we didn't talk about it today, Board Member Tasks/Goals 19:35:39 did we already discuss the "single point of failure" ticket? 19:35:40 Oh, right -- a reminder that the Board member projects/tasks/goals are due next week. 19:35:45 cwickert: We ran out of time 19:35:55 cwickert: (and several of us have a hard stop) 19:36:01 ah, ok 19:36:41 Anything else? 19:36:46 * abadger1999 has a feeling we may run short on time next week as well ;-) [board member tasks, torrents 2, and spof... all big topics] 19:37:05 The more we discuss things on the mailing list, the shorter the meeting will be :-) 19:37:24 * jsmith suggests that the Board members announce their goals/projects on the list *before* the meeting, if possible 19:38:14 * jsmith waits one more minutes for anything else 19:38:28 ! 19:38:57 zoltanh7211: yes, please, I don't think we are using the meeting protocol 19:39:07 go ahead 19:39:09 zoltanh7211: Go ahead 19:39:32 jsmith: What happened with the mail from University of Gdansk? Any answer? 19:39:49 zoltanh7211: I forwarded it to a couple of people, but haven't received much of a response. 19:39:56 ok thx 19:40:00 zoltanh7211: I'll follow up with you offline 19:41:26 OK, folks -- have a great time furthering the discussions on the mailing list. 19:41:28 #endmeeting