15:59:37 <dustymabe> #startmeeting fedora_cloud_meeting
15:59:37 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Sep  1 15:59:37 2020 UTC.
15:59:37 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:59:37 <zodbot> The chair is dustymabe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:59:37 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:59:37 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_cloud_meeting'
15:59:43 <dustymabe> #topic roll call
15:59:46 <dustymabe> .hello2
15:59:47 <zodbot> dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' <dusty@dustymabe.com>
16:00:31 <jdoss> .hello2
16:00:32 <zodbot> jdoss: jdoss 'Joe Doss' <joe@solidadmin.com>
16:00:32 <cyberpear> .hello2
16:00:35 <zodbot> cyberpear: cyberpear 'James Cassell' <fedoraproject@cyberpear.com>
16:01:24 <dustymabe> #chair jdoss cyberpear
16:01:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: cyberpear dustymabe jdoss
16:01:30 <dustymabe> welcome :)
16:01:40 <jdoss> Hi Dusty :)
16:01:55 <darkmuggle> .hello2
16:01:56 <zodbot> darkmuggle: darkmuggle 'None' <me@muggle.dev>
16:02:02 <dustymabe> #chair darkmuggle
16:02:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: cyberpear darkmuggle dustymabe jdoss
16:02:42 <mgugino> .hello2
16:02:43 <zodbot> mgugino: Sorry, but you don't exist
16:02:48 <dustymabe> #chair mgugino
16:02:48 <zodbot> Current chairs: cyberpear darkmuggle dustymabe jdoss mgugino
16:02:56 <dustymabe> ok let's get started
16:03:03 <michaelgugino> .hello2
16:03:04 <zodbot> michaelgugino: michaelgugino 'Michael Gugino' <gugino.michael@yahoo.com>
16:03:30 <dustymabe> #topic Action items from last meeting
16:03:42 <dustymabe> * King_InuYasha to engage mhayden to see if the cloud base images might
16:03:44 <dustymabe> be a good candidate for Image Builder
16:03:46 <dustymabe> * King_InuYasha and michaelgugino to work together to see if mash is a
16:03:48 <dustymabe> viable avenue for uploading disk images to the clouds
16:03:51 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
16:03:52 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
16:04:03 <King_InuYasha> hey everyone
16:04:07 <King_InuYasha> sorry I'm a bit late
16:04:10 <King_InuYasha> work meeting ran over
16:04:12 <dustymabe> no worries
16:04:15 <dustymabe> #chair King_InuYasha
16:04:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: King_InuYasha cyberpear darkmuggle dustymabe jdoss mgugino
16:04:36 <michaelgugino> no updates from me at this time.
16:05:02 <dustymabe> should we re-action or let it linger ?
16:05:12 <King_InuYasha> probably reaction for the mash thing
16:05:24 <dustymabe> * King_InuYasha and michaelgugino to work together to see if mash is a viable avenue for uploading disk images to the clouds
16:05:44 <King_InuYasha> as for the image builder thing, I sent an email to Major this morning
16:06:36 <dustymabe> cool let's see what comes back from that
16:06:50 <dustymabe> ok we don't have any meeting topics labeled but I have a few things I want to bring up
16:07:13 <dustymabe> #topic rewrite kickstart files - remove cruft
16:07:20 <dustymabe> #link https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/311
16:07:27 <dustymabe> I started working on this this morning
16:07:46 <dustymabe> quite a bit of cruft we can remove
16:07:49 <King_InuYasha> nice
16:07:57 <dustymabe> I'm thinking mostly just remove it all and add back what we need as we find things
16:08:06 <dustymabe> i'm trying to keep the package set relatively unchanced
16:08:16 <dustymabe> but other than that, most of the "tweaks" i'm just going through one by one
16:08:20 <dustymabe> and inspecting them
16:08:26 <dustymabe> hopefully will have a PR up later today
16:08:49 <dustymabe> and maybe later this week we can push that to f33 so we'll be able to test these changes for beta
16:08:50 <King_InuYasha> cool
16:09:51 <dustymabe> This was mostly needed for general maintenance, but also we want a cleaner slate to start with for the GCP addition (https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/310)
16:10:05 <King_InuYasha> right
16:10:30 <dustymabe> any comments for this topic or should I move on?
16:10:36 <King_InuYasha> at Nest, dgilmore had some ideas of how to hybridize a cloud image even with imgfac based images, so it might be worth following up with him for the GCP add
16:10:50 <King_InuYasha> so since you're doing that work now, you might want to get in touch with him for that
16:11:01 <dustymabe> k
16:11:23 <dustymabe> if you could summarize and put it in a ticket that would be good too
16:11:44 <King_InuYasha> I don't remember, hence suggesting you talk to him :)
16:11:55 <King_InuYasha> it was bad of me to not put it in three weeks ago :(
16:12:00 <michaelgugino> Are we using GCP's startup tool, or did cloud-init start working on GCP again?
16:12:05 <dustymabe> it happens
16:12:22 <dustymabe> #topic publish a cloud image for GCP
16:12:27 <King_InuYasha> cloud-init works there, but I need to update gcp packages to new stuff
16:12:29 <dustymabe> #link https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/310
16:12:47 <dustymabe> King_InuYasha: how much work do you think that would be to update the gcp packages to the new stuff ?
16:13:02 <King_InuYasha> well, they changed from C and Python to Go... :(
16:13:15 <dustymabe> The google engineer is interested in making that happen, but needs a mentor
16:13:40 <King_InuYasha> well, then put that person in touch with me and we can figure it out
16:14:08 <King_InuYasha> when I was working on this a year or so ago, the guest-agent team wasn't interested in my fixes, so I stopped updating it
16:14:16 <dustymabe> perfect - some sort of co-maintainership would be nice where he/they do most of the work and you help make sure they do the right things
16:14:16 <King_InuYasha> seems like the situation has changed now
16:14:55 <dustymabe> indeed
16:15:13 <dustymabe> ok I think I'll break it out into a new ticket so we can have a focused discussion there
16:15:17 <King_InuYasha> cool
16:15:36 <dustymabe> #topic welcome darkmuggle
16:15:44 <King_InuYasha> hey darkmuggle!
16:15:48 <michaelgugino> Maybe we patch and maintain the packages ourselves if the source is available?
16:15:49 <dustymabe> Everybody 👋 to darkmuggle
16:15:56 <darkmuggle> howdy :)
16:16:17 <dustymabe> michaelgugino: yeah it would be a package in fedora, so open source and in dist-git
16:16:32 <dustymabe> darkmuggle is looking to get more involved in the cloud WG
16:16:38 <King_InuYasha> awesome
16:16:56 <darkmuggle> I've been meaning to play in the Fedora Cloud space for a while. I'm looking for some things to work on...but not clear where my energy can be directed.
16:17:08 <dustymabe> he's got quite a "cloud"y background so his skills will be put to good use
16:17:40 <michaelgugino> welcome.
16:17:44 * jdoss waves
16:18:02 <dustymabe> can we think of any particular item that would be good for him to put some attention on first?
16:18:13 <King_InuYasha> do we want to do ignition for cloud images?
16:18:18 <jdoss> ooooo
16:18:20 <King_InuYasha> if we do, that might be a good starting place
16:18:29 <jdoss> That would be pretty slick
16:18:45 <darkmuggle> That sounds like an interesting place to cut my teeth
16:18:57 <dustymabe> King_InuYasha: I think it would be nice to support either cloud-init or ignition at the same time, but honestly I think we've got other foundational pieces we probably need to do first
16:19:14 <King_InuYasha> the only other thing would be getting the tools we need for testing and uploading cloud images packaged
16:19:16 <dustymabe> for example.. if fedimg goes down today, I have no idea how to fix it
16:19:30 <King_InuYasha> `img-mash` and `img-proof`
16:19:37 <dustymabe> we really need to get https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/301 sorted out
16:20:56 <dustymabe> so yeah I think the highest priority issues we have are:
16:21:12 <dustymabe> 1. replacing fedimg (https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/301)
16:21:32 <michaelgugino> hack day friday.  I'm going to push hard to get something actually uploading something to somewhere on the accounts I have access to Friday.
16:21:33 <dustymabe> 2. possibly replacing the imagefactory/os stack with something newer (Image builder maybe)
16:21:51 <dustymabe> s/os/oz/
16:22:11 <dustymabe> michaelgugino: +1
16:22:24 <dustymabe> maybe you can darkmuggle and King_InuYasha could all work together on it
16:22:29 <King_InuYasha> :)
16:22:30 <dustymabe> s/can/and/
16:23:04 <dustymabe> King_InuYasha: does "ignition support" sound like a good f34 goal maybe?
16:23:10 <King_InuYasha> yeah
16:23:19 <michaelgugino> Sure.  We can hang out in #fedora-cloud on Friday.  I'm on US East coast time, FYI.
16:23:24 <King_InuYasha> same
16:23:40 <darkmuggle> That sounds agreeable to me, although I'm US Mountain time.
16:24:31 <michaelgugino> Cool.  I'm going to try to dedicate as much of Friday as I can to this.  So I'll be around all day.
16:24:35 <King_InuYasha> well, I'm free after 12pm EDT
16:24:39 <dustymabe> cool. I'm really excited to get more people involved here
16:24:54 <King_InuYasha> so that should work fine for darkmuggle being in MDT
16:25:36 <jdoss> I am in CDT and should be around this Friday too.
16:26:17 <dustymabe> 🎉
16:26:23 <dustymabe> welcome again darkmuggle
16:26:32 <dustymabe> #topic open floor
16:26:36 <dustymabe> any topics for open floor ?
16:27:19 <darkmuggle> well back to the Cloud-init and Ignition support....if there's interest we could easily provide dual use images without breaking each other.
16:27:48 <jdoss> I think having one image with it being able to support Cloud-init or Ignition is ideal.
16:28:06 <dustymabe> same ^^ - of course only if it's not super super hard to do
16:28:11 <King_InuYasha> if dual-use is possible, we should do that
16:28:20 <jdoss> I am not sure how that will technically however but we should give it a solid try.
16:28:27 <darkmuggle> I don't think it will be that hard TBH
16:28:29 <cyberpear> how tightly tied is ignition to ostree?
16:28:33 <King_InuYasha> not very
16:28:37 <dustymabe> yeah, not at all
16:28:39 <cyberpear> (or not at all?)
16:28:43 <darkmuggle> The key is where cloud-init and ignition run
16:28:46 <jdoss> That is great to hear.
16:28:48 <King_InuYasha> ignition is used by SUSE for their btrfs-based system
16:29:08 <michaelgugino> There's a sentiment downstream that ignition isn't going to non-immutable distros.  Maybe there's a reason for that, IDK.  I'm not personally a fan of ignition, but that's me.
16:29:40 <King_InuYasha> since ignition can't do software management, it's a slightly better fit for "immutable" platforms
16:29:57 <King_InuYasha> but that is definitely not a thing that can't be fixed
16:30:07 <darkmuggle> The advantage to dual support is that we can let the user choose.
16:30:34 <cyberpear> ignition is like kickstart, but at first boot time instead of install time
16:30:37 <michaelgugino> I'm personally seeing the machine-config-daemon adapted to more purposes.  It's like an immutable puppet.
16:30:41 <dustymabe> oh yeah, definitely not going to be removing cloud-init support
16:30:56 <King_InuYasha> MCD is not particularly useful in most cases
16:31:19 <darkmuggle> Recent innovations in ignition gives a path to detecting the user's intend.
16:31:28 <michaelgugino> Having MCD as a centralized configuration server for immutable systems I think is an interesting use case.
16:31:36 <michaelgugino> Well, MCD and MCS and other components.
16:31:38 <cyberpear> MCD takes an ignition and applies it at times other than first boot?
16:31:43 <darkmuggle> I'll file an issue with the thinking and we can debate whether the idea has merit and weight the risk/rewards.
16:31:54 <darkmuggle> s/weight/weigh/
16:31:59 <michaelgugino> cyberpear: more or less.  It's technically ignition embedded into a different object.
16:31:59 <King_InuYasha> I expect that if we wanted to drive ignition to be used more on regular platforms, extending it to have a software management task wouldn't be difficult
16:32:13 <King_InuYasha> that's pretty much the only hole it has relative to cloud-init
16:32:38 <darkmuggle> Software management via ignition might be a tough sell to the ignition maintainers
16:32:46 <dustymabe> King_InuYasha: there's some debate on that.
16:32:53 <dustymabe> on what belongs in ignition
16:33:04 <dustymabe> generally we like to keep the primitives low
16:33:13 <dustymabe> and then have things like fcct build on top of it
16:33:19 <King_InuYasha> if it's being used in a non-immutable platform, we cannot expect everything we need to be present in the base
16:33:28 <King_InuYasha> that's sort of the point
16:33:41 <darkmuggle> Right. I wouldn't try to teach ignition about dnf/yum/....
16:33:41 <King_InuYasha> immutable platforms work because we provide enough to do a particular primary purpose
16:33:57 <King_InuYasha> that doesn't fly for regular Fedora Cloud
16:33:59 <dustymabe> right, but is it Ignition that knows how to install things or is it fcct that generates instructions for Ignition
16:34:05 <King_InuYasha> does that matter?
16:34:12 <dustymabe> yes.
16:34:17 <dustymabe> not to the user, it doesn't
16:34:17 <michaelgugino> Another idea I had was for non os-tree systems, you could vendor all the RPMs you want for a given 'release' of your system into a container, and MCD (or something else) applies the packages from that container.  This would include whatever system updates and applications you want installed.
16:34:22 <King_InuYasha> if fcct has a software management task that does a thing to make ignition able to do it, then who cares?
16:34:36 <King_InuYasha> we already tell people to not write ign files directly
16:34:37 <dustymabe> King_InuYasha: the people building Ignition and fcct care
16:34:55 <dustymabe> i'm just trying to explain the difference to help understanding
16:35:07 <King_InuYasha> ah sure
16:35:12 <darkmuggle> I have to agree with King_InuYasha 100%
16:35:29 <King_InuYasha> when I think of ignition to people, I'm thinking of the ignition interface, ie fcct
16:35:55 <dustymabe> fair, just be careful what conversations you start.. make sure you're on the same page with the audience
16:35:58 <King_InuYasha> I honestly don't care how ignition _itself_ does it as long as the sane interface to handle the task is in the thing people use
16:36:11 <dustymabe> 👍
16:36:12 <King_InuYasha> with cloud-init, everyone hand-writes cloud-configs
16:36:22 <King_InuYasha> with ignition, everyone handwrites fcct yamls
16:36:27 <King_InuYasha> not ign json
16:37:06 <King_InuYasha> I think the only time I've cared about ignition itself is when there's no way to do something
16:37:17 <King_InuYasha> like with setting up a system with a btrfs rootfs
16:38:49 <dustymabe> any other topics for open floor ?
16:39:39 <King_InuYasha> not atm
16:40:44 <dustymabe> I'll close it out in a few minutes if no more topics.
16:42:51 <dustymabe> #endmeeting