15:58:58 <dustymabe> #startmeeting fedora_cloud_meeting
15:58:58 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue May 11 15:58:58 2021 UTC.
15:58:58 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:58:58 <zodbot> The chair is dustymabe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:58:58 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:58:58 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_cloud_meeting'
15:59:03 <dustymabe> #topic roll call
15:59:06 <dustymabe> .hi
15:59:07 <zodbot> dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' <dusty@dustymabe.com>
16:01:45 <Eighth_Doctor> 👋
16:01:50 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
16:01:50 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
16:01:53 <dustymabe> hiya
16:03:34 <nb> .hi
16:03:34 <zodbot> nb: nb 'Nick Bebout' <nick@bebout.net>
16:06:03 <dustymabe> hmm, guess we're low numbers today
16:06:19 <dustymabe> let me see if there were any action items from last meeting
16:06:45 <dustymabe> #topic Action items from last meeting
16:06:50 <dustymabe> * nb to hand out Fedora Badges to everyone who participated in the test day
16:06:58 <dustymabe> #info thank you nb for handing out badges!
16:07:32 <dustymabe> #topic open floor
16:08:04 <dustymabe> #info the GCP cloud agent rpm was merged into rawhide so that GCP cloud image should now no longer use cloud-init
16:08:19 <dustymabe> please test out the rawhide cloud image builds to verify it's working as desired
16:08:49 <dustymabe> in other news otubo reached out earlier today and said he is working on bug backlog for cloud-init
16:08:59 <dustymabe> anyone with anything else for open floor?
16:09:49 <Eighth_Doctor> yeah
16:10:18 <Eighth_Doctor> davdunc and I talked last week, and he's interested in Fedora Cloud using Btrfs or having a Btrfs-based variant
16:10:29 <davdunc> .hello
16:10:29 <zodbot> davdunc: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
16:10:34 <davdunc> .hello2
16:10:35 <zodbot> davdunc: davdunc 'David Duncan' <davdunc@amazon.com>
16:10:37 <davdunc> yea.
16:10:41 <Eighth_Doctor> this was also discussed in Fedora Server and there was a lot of positive reception for Fedora Cloud using Btrfs
16:11:34 <Eighth_Doctor> also, F35 has the RPMCoW stuff that is designed around leveraging Btrfs to improve performance
16:11:43 <Eighth_Doctor> well, has that coming, that is
16:12:50 <dustymabe> interesting
16:12:59 <Eighth_Doctor> and I've got stuff for doing atomic updates using Btrfs too that we could play with
16:13:07 <Eighth_Doctor> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/libdnf-plugin-txnupd
16:14:13 <dustymabe> yeah I don't really have much skin in the game here. My initial thoughts are that cloud instances are simple and changing the FS is probably not really worth it, but... I don't feel super strongly about it
16:14:30 <dustymabe> i think there are some people that do feel strongly about it, though
16:14:57 <Eighth_Doctor> dustymabe: I think the main benefit here is getting better performance, and lots of people use Fedora Cloud as a Fedora Server like thing with EC2 and similar
16:15:19 <Eighth_Doctor> at least, I know that I do
16:15:40 <Eighth_Doctor> and Fedora Cloud is the input for most VPS providers to offer Fedora as a server
16:15:56 <Eighth_Doctor> so those more traditional workloads benefit from Btrfs, IMO
16:16:09 <Eighth_Doctor> (there are also container-y benefits too, but that's a separate discussion)
16:16:56 <Eighth_Doctor> btw, on rpmcow: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RPMCoW
16:17:07 <dustymabe> one thing.. I know some cloud providers make assumptions,
16:17:14 <dustymabe> which they probably shouldn't
16:17:22 <dustymabe> but it could break our image in some of those
16:17:25 <dustymabe> just something we should be aware of
16:17:30 <Eighth_Doctor> hmm
16:17:50 <Eighth_Doctor> do we have contacts with the ones that we actively promote?
16:18:15 <Eighth_Doctor> beyond that, we probably should do a proper Change for this to make it visible
16:18:15 <dustymabe> There is also the discussion of merging with the server WG - if we change to BTRFS does that inhibit that potential path for us (i.e. should we get server to buy in on the FS change too, or maybe they have already)?
16:18:29 <dustymabe> we have contacts with some cloud providers
16:18:38 <Eighth_Doctor> Server is already kind of bought in on it
16:18:45 <Eighth_Doctor> it first came up there in their meeting last week
16:19:28 <Eighth_Doctor> Server Edition itself isn't ready to make that switch yet, but there was positive reception to Cloud Edition switching first
16:19:38 <Eighth_Doctor> since its storage needs are simpler and less varied
16:19:45 <dustymabe> ahh, ok. I'd say if you can get them to buy in, then it will make switching cloud make a lot more sense
16:20:23 <Eighth_Doctor> well, at least nirik liked the idea of cloud doing it first
16:20:45 <dustymabe> makes sense if it can be part of a unified plan
16:20:48 <Eighth_Doctor> there's some upstream work being done first before dcavalca is ready to propose it for Server, and the WG agreed on that
16:21:15 <dustymabe> so I'm not opposed, just a bit conservative and want to make sure we think through things a bit
16:21:18 <Eighth_Doctor> mainly that there's going to be work on fixing up raid5/6 by WDC
16:21:50 <Eighth_Doctor> sure
16:22:11 <Eighth_Doctor> dustymabe: if you think we don't want to switch the main one, we could produce an alternate set of images with btrfs instead
16:22:16 <dustymabe> 👍
16:22:32 <Eighth_Doctor> I think it's not necessary to do it that way, since ext4->btrfs is strictly an upgrade
16:22:46 <Eighth_Doctor> but we could do it that way
16:22:49 <dustymabe> Eighth_Doctor: yeah, I'd prefer to keep it to the number of images we have now, but I imagine some people will complain
16:22:58 <dustymabe> so definitely something to work through
16:23:20 <Eighth_Doctor> davdunc is going to drive this change, and I'll help, but he's the main change owner :)
16:23:41 <davdunc> yes. I'll own that.
16:24:17 <Eighth_Doctor> I personally want to experiment with making a Fedora Cloud variant with btrfs+rpmcow+txnupd
16:24:39 <Eighth_Doctor> but I don't think that's something worth being a general purpose Cloud image
16:24:48 <Eighth_Doctor> and would be something quite separate
16:25:11 <Eighth_Doctor> the btrfs+rpmcow stuff is quite beneficial for cloud as it is, and davdunc wants to drive that for Fedora Cloud :)
16:26:23 <Eighth_Doctor> I don't know if jdoss/jdoss_ is around, but last time I asked him, he was interested in it too
16:26:31 <davdunc> sorry i am not carrying this more vocally, but  I am in a engineering meeting
16:26:43 <Eighth_Doctor> davdunc: no worries, I know how that's like :)
16:28:33 <Eighth_Doctor> dustymabe, so I guess the question at this point is how do you feel about it? do you think there's some extra stuff we should do around proposing this change for F35?
16:31:10 <dustymabe> Eighth_Doctor: sorry - multitasking
16:31:54 <dustymabe> Eighth_Doctor: ehh - for f35
16:32:17 <dustymabe> would it be better to pull off the cloud/server WG merge first (f35) and then tackle this for f36?
16:32:20 <Eighth_Doctor> dustymabe: I know, I'm multi-tasking too (three meetings at once is no bueno)
16:32:37 <dustymabe> i guess it's good to start the conversation now and the change could push til f36 if it doesn't make it
16:32:45 <Eighth_Doctor> dustymabe: I don't think we should couple it with that
16:33:01 <dustymabe> we should probably vocalize this more within the cloud WG - ticket - mailing list, too
16:33:02 <Eighth_Doctor> we're already coordinating with them with members being present in both SIGs meetings
16:33:12 <dustymabe> and then file a change after that
16:33:48 <Eighth_Doctor> it was discussed in Server WG last week here: https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/fedora-server/fedora-server.2021-05-05-17.00.log.html
16:34:09 <Eighth_Doctor> Server WG is waiting on us to do it :P
16:34:11 <jdoss> I'm interested in ignition in fedora cloud
16:34:22 <Eighth_Doctor> we could pair with both
16:34:31 <jdoss> But my internet is out so I'm dealing with that right now.
16:34:33 <dustymabe> Eighth_Doctor: right, i was referring to cloud WG peeps, which is what you're trying to do right now, but there aren't really a lot of people around
16:34:47 <Eighth_Doctor> the SUSE folks have done work with ignition that would be interesting to pull in for Cloud WG
16:35:00 <Eighth_Doctor> combustion in particular could replace the remaining needs of cloud-init
16:35:18 <jdoss> Andddd Internet is back
16:35:33 <Eighth_Doctor> https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/devel:kubic:ignition/combustion
16:35:55 <jdoss> I am really interested in getting ignition working in other parts of Fedora and other distros.
16:35:55 <dustymabe> Eighth_Doctor: interesting
16:35:57 <Eighth_Doctor> (I'm a comaintainer of parts of the ignition stack in openSUSE Kubic 😉)
16:37:18 <dustymabe> Eighth_Doctor: so what do you need from me?
16:37:29 <Eighth_Doctor> dustymabe: your approval and happiness :)
16:37:35 <jdoss> and your love
16:37:38 <dustymabe> haha
16:37:40 <jdoss> I mean...
16:37:47 <Eighth_Doctor> 😆
16:38:04 <dustymabe> I think I'm fine with it. Please do socialize it more (cloud ML and a ticket if there isn't already one)
16:38:22 <dustymabe> and I'll try to follow the change proposal
16:38:26 <Eighth_Doctor> sure, we have a ticket, but no discussion on the cloud ML
16:38:31 <Eighth_Doctor> https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/308
16:39:38 <jdoss> Is there a ticket to explore adding in Ignition to Fedora Cloud?
16:40:03 <Eighth_Doctor> no
16:40:10 <Eighth_Doctor> I thought we had one, but we don't
16:40:40 <jdoss> Who is playing with our emotions Eighth_Doctor? Who!?
16:40:47 <Eighth_Doctor> 🤷‍♂️
16:41:01 <jdoss> I will make a ticket.
16:41:17 <Eighth_Doctor> dustymabe: how about davdunc and I work on a draft Change and use that as the starting point to discuss it on the cloud@ ML?
16:41:26 <Eighth_Doctor> that way we have a concrete proposal to discuss
16:41:38 <dustymabe> Eighth_Doctor: sounds good to me
16:41:42 <davdunc> +1
16:42:36 <Eighth_Doctor> davdunc: I'll send you an email to start this process and we can have relevant folks involved to help make the Change proposal for F35
16:42:58 <dustymabe> anything else for open floor?
16:43:05 <davdunc> Eighth_Doctor: send it to my work address please. (associated with FAS)
16:43:05 <Eighth_Doctor> nah, I'm good
16:43:10 <Eighth_Doctor> davdunc: will do
16:43:28 <Eighth_Doctor> there's a lot of interesting pieces in flight for F35, including a kernel that will support zoned block devices (SMR drives, etc.) with Btrfs :)
16:44:30 <jdoss> https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/329
16:44:32 <jdoss> tada
16:46:23 <Eighth_Doctor> yay
16:46:40 <dustymabe> ok i'm going to close this out.
16:46:46 <dustymabe> Thanks for coming jdoss nb davdunc Eighth_Doctor
16:46:49 <dustymabe> #endmeeting