15:00:51 <davdunc> #startmeeting fedora_cloud_meeting
15:00:51 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 11 15:00:51 2021 UTC.
15:00:51 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:51 <zodbot> The chair is davdunc. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
15:00:51 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:51 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_cloud_meeting'
15:01:05 <davdunc> #topic roll call
15:01:21 <dustymabe> .hi
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15:01:26 <dustymabe> .hi
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15:01:41 <mhayden> .hi
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15:01:46 <dustymabe> great zodbot - nb seen this before?
15:01:49 <mhayden> 🔥
15:01:56 <dcavalca> looks like the bots are striking today
15:01:58 <dustymabe> hi my name is: Dusty Mabe (dusty@dustymabe.com)
15:03:01 <davdunc> oh no.
15:03:32 <mhayden> .hello mhayden
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15:03:39 <Eighth_Doctor> 👋
15:03:43 <mhayden> 🤔🤷🏻‍♂️
15:03:45 <davdunc> #chair mhayden
15:03:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: davdunc mhayden
15:04:00 <davdunc> #chair dustymabe Eighth_Doctor
15:04:00 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor davdunc dustymabe mhayden
15:04:15 <davdunc> #chair Eighth_Doctor
15:04:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor davdunc dustymabe mhayden
15:04:18 <mhayden> perhaps the cloud has not been friendly to zodbot
15:04:30 <dcavalca> hopefully at least the meeting logs still work
15:04:31 <davdunc> we love zodbot
15:04:57 <davdunc> bless it's heart.
15:05:14 <davdunc> #chair dcavalca
15:05:14 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor davdunc dcavalca dustymabe mhayden
15:05:17 <michel> 👋
15:05:27 <davdunc> #chair michel
15:05:27 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor davdunc dcavalca dustymabe mhayden michel
15:06:07 <davdunc> well, I didn't get a direct "blew up" message, so I am going to continue as if the logging is working.
15:06:23 <davdunc> if not, it won't be the first time I recreated the meeting minutes by hand.
15:06:37 <davdunc> okay.
15:06:52 <davdunc> #topick Action items from last meeting
15:07:01 <davdunc> #topic Action items from last meeting
15:07:06 <davdunc> without the "K"
15:07:33 <davdunc> no action items from last week.
15:07:44 <davdunc> last *meeting
15:08:20 <davdunc> grabbing what i think should be first.
15:08:38 <davdunc> #topic Cloud Working Group Correction Of Errors Report
15:08:49 <davdunc> #link https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/352
15:09:17 <davdunc> So I'll start with the big question
15:09:26 <davdunc> Should we focus on being an edition again?
15:09:53 <Eighth_Doctor> seems like nothing is happening?
15:10:04 <davdunc> Eighth_Doctor:
15:10:17 <dcavalca> yes, I think we should
15:10:21 <davdunc> I think that we should
15:10:37 <mhayden> seems like Fedora Cloud isn't really an edition, but more like an opinionated installation that is packaged in unusual ways (relative to other editions)
15:10:54 <mhayden> similar to Fedora in containers
15:10:59 <dcavalca> mhayden: that's kinda the definition of an edition though :)
15:11:01 <michel> who's chairing this? (been away for too long)
15:11:12 <davdunc> I have heard that argument before mhayden.
15:11:15 <mhayden> dcavalca: point taken 😉
15:11:29 <dustymabe> I'll note that practically speaking being an edition is really only a promotion to toplevel display on fedora websites and such, which I think is useful
15:11:34 <davdunc> michel: michel I think I am.
15:11:47 <mhayden> dustymabe: top level display is definitely worth it
15:11:49 <davdunc> #chair michel
15:11:49 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor davdunc dcavalca dustymabe mhayden michel
15:11:57 <dustymabe> the reason this hasn't come up for so long is because practically speaking, nothing changed with the Fedora Cloud image - people could still use it as they had before
15:11:57 <mhayden> s/worth it/worthwhile/
15:12:08 <dustymabe> mhayden: I don't disagree. I agree in fact!
15:12:34 <dustymabe> just stating that the reason we let it "slide into the shadows" is because technically speaking nothing really changed
15:12:39 <davdunc> dustymabe: I think that' we already have a lot of groundwork here too.
15:12:43 <mhayden> so is publicity/awareness the main benefit from becoming an edition?
15:12:59 <dustymabe> mhayden: I think that's the primary benefit (from my perspective)
15:13:16 <dustymabe> There's probably other benefits (like being considered "blocking")
15:13:23 <davdunc> mhayden: I think it's a commitment to actively participate in the goals related to the community and marketing and product management too.
15:13:51 <dcavalca> beyond the marketing stuff (which is valuable), it's also awareness within Fedora itself
15:13:54 <davdunc> so blog posts and solutions efforts, along with commitments to meet deadlines.
15:13:59 <Eighth_Doctor> davdunc should be
15:14:01 <dcavalca> editions at the end of the day are the deliverables of the project
15:14:11 <dustymabe> sure - I think all of these points are valid
15:14:17 <davdunc> +1 dcavalca
15:14:19 <dustymabe> but what I will say...
15:14:26 <mhayden> i'm definitely in support of the additional edition work (pardon the pun)
15:14:30 <dustymabe> is that none of this stuff will happen without us making it happen
15:14:38 <davdunc> dustymabe is right.
15:14:48 <davdunc> we have to be willing to sweat a little.
15:14:53 <dustymabe> if we get the "edition" stamp and then do what we've done for the past 5 years, nothing will change
15:15:01 <davdunc> and take responsibility.
15:15:10 <mhayden> right, it's "become addition and... "
15:15:17 <mhayden> edition
15:15:20 <mhayden> 🤦🏻‍♂️
15:15:25 <dcavalca> the main short-term impact I can see is getting included in the website redesign that's being discussed
15:15:31 <dustymabe> similarly, if we don't get the edition stamp, but still put in the sweat equity - we'd probably be at about the same place we would be WITH the edition stamp
15:15:48 <dustymabe> what i'm mostly stating is that our destiny is mostly controlled by us, with or without the edition stamp
15:15:49 <davdunc> dcavalca: we were on-track for that too. I was the representative.
15:16:24 <michel> .hi salimma
15:16:25 <zodbot> michel: Something blew up, please try again
15:16:27 <davdunc> dustymabe: we made what I think are some big advances in f35.
15:16:28 <zodbot> michel: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
15:16:46 * dustymabe would also like to say that he's very happy to see everyone here today and passionate about pushing Fedora Cloud forward
15:17:00 <michel-slm> .hi salimma
15:17:01 <zodbot> michel-slm: Something blew up, please try again
15:17:04 <zodbot> michel-slm: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
15:17:09 <michel-slm> sigh
15:17:16 <dcavalca> dustymabe: I suspect we're all violently agreeing here :)
15:17:20 <dustymabe> welcome michel-slm
15:17:22 <davdunc> oh yea. dustymabe you made this a great group for us to participate in.
15:17:24 <dustymabe> dcavalca: indeed
15:17:33 <michel-slm> thanks dustymabe
15:17:34 <davdunc> #chair michel-slm
15:17:34 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor davdunc dcavalca dustymabe mhayden michel michel-slm
15:17:46 <davdunc> we'll get you in there michel-slm
15:17:57 * mhayden will commit time to doing the needful to get fedora cloud as a full edition
15:18:02 <michel-slm> switching back to IRC, the timestamps in Matrix are weird. Got a heart attack when I saw davdunc and dustymabe having messages supposedly from 15 mins ago
15:18:02 <davdunc> cool.
15:18:45 <davdunc> so let's just have a vote for the sake of having it resolved amongst ourselves.
15:18:46 <dustymabe> mhayden: is that an action item?
15:19:04 <mhayden> if becoming an edition is step 1, we could then move on to making fedora cloud a better cloud citizen. better cloud integration/functionality
15:19:11 <mhayden> dustymabe: i think so
15:19:32 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
15:19:33 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: Something blew up, please try again
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15:19:40 <mhayden> i got an email from someone this morning who wants to work on more cloud tooling + SDKs so fedora can manage the cloud that is running underneath it
15:19:53 <mhayden> so we have room to grow and mature 🎉
15:20:02 <dustymabe> nice
15:20:07 <dustymabe> davdunc: +1 for vote
15:20:27 <davdunc> I don't remember the meetbot vote function
15:20:32 * mhayden is happy to make an action item but doesn't want to step on davdunc's toes 🦶🏻
15:20:41 <dustymabe> just say #proposed this is my proposal
15:20:45 <davdunc> got it.
15:20:46 <dustymabe> then people +1 or -1
15:20:53 <dustymabe> then say #agreed this is my proposal
15:21:26 <davdunc> #proposed as a group we will commit time and resources to making Cloud Base image an Edition once again.
15:21:42 <michel-slm> some people summarize the vote count but that's also manual right, the bot doesn't help
15:22:05 <dustymabe> +1 - though i would like to say I can'
15:22:10 <davdunc> +1
15:22:11 <dustymabe> can't put significant work into it
15:22:12 <dcavalca> +1
15:22:18 <michel-slm> +1
15:22:39 <davdunc> dustymabe: we don't expect that. we know you are trying to spin this out. We need you as an advisor.
15:23:01 <mhayden> +1
15:23:16 <davdunc> Eighth_Doctor: you sorting it out over there?
15:23:45 <davdunc> though your voice is clear in the Fedora Blockers log.
15:24:15 <davdunc> #agreed We will work to be added back as an edition
15:24:31 <davdunc> #chair Eighth_Doctor
15:24:31 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor davdunc dcavalca dustymabe mhayden michel michel-slm
15:25:05 <davdunc> okay then. . . I think that one is done.
15:25:13 <dustymabe> #action mhayden to create a tracking ticket (if one doesn't already exist) and lead up efforts to re-instate Cloud as an edition
15:25:13 <Eighth_Doctor> yes for sure
15:25:19 <Eighth_Doctor> we should be an edition
15:25:46 <davdunc> cool.
15:25:52 <davdunc> More on this in later topics too.
15:25:59 <davdunc> moving away for a sec.
15:26:05 <davdunc> #topic default user for qcow2 base cloud image
15:26:15 <davdunc> #link https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/348
15:26:47 <davdunc> I saw this come up in the issues and I wondered if we wanted to look into the request and why it was complicated for the packer scenario.
15:26:56 <davdunc> That was unexpected.
15:27:37 <davdunc> packer seems to work well with cloud-init, so I wasn't sure what the ask was here and it we needed to publish something for guidance.
15:27:55 <davdunc> if* we needed to publish something.
15:27:55 * mhayden reads the issue
15:28:38 <mhayden> this feels like a docs/awareness issue
15:28:41 <michel-slm> seems like a documentation request, since OP is reporting two different problems
15:29:00 <davdunc> yea. That's what I thought michel-slm
15:29:02 <mhayden> i always have to scratch my head on the user to use for fedora/rhel/ubuntu/debian in clouds 🙃
15:29:37 <davdunc> mhayden: i did for a while, but now having the distro as the default user makes plenty of sense to me.
15:29:46 <dustymabe> mhayden: your config could enforce a user
15:30:01 <mhayden> to make matters worse, some clouds make their own fedora images and then use root 🤦🏻‍♂️ (but that's another topic for another time)
15:30:23 <davdunc> dustymabe: my "default user is davdunc typically" no matter wahat.
15:30:45 <davdunc> mhayden: we should try to help them along in those cases, but another day.
15:30:59 <dustymabe> for this particular problem I don't know enough about packer to help them
15:31:17 <dustymabe> "starting automated install..." sounds like it's trying to run anaconda
15:31:23 <dustymabe> but I really have no idea
15:31:25 <davdunc> this seemed like a place where we could make a big difference in the use by just documenting a path forward for using the cloud-init defaults.
15:31:45 <dustymabe> davdunc: documentation would be really nice
15:31:52 <davdunc> Eighth_Doctor: helped him by pointing that out.
15:32:08 <dustymabe> something similar to https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-coreos/
15:32:34 <davdunc> yes dustymabe very much like that.
15:32:45 <davdunc> and in asciidoc too .
15:33:09 <davdunc> which is another thing we should cover in the move to an edition (not today though)
15:33:21 <davdunc> okay
15:33:37 <davdunc> any takers on researching the issue with the user?
15:34:37 <davdunc> #action davdunc reproduce the issue and outline documentation for Issue  348
15:34:46 <davdunc> I'll take it.
15:36:05 <davdunc> anyone else have anything for this?
15:36:50 <davdunc> #topic Add Ignition support to Fedora Cloud
15:37:03 <davdunc> #link https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/329
15:37:11 <dustymabe> I think this was something maybe jdoss was interested in
15:37:20 <davdunc> I could see that.
15:37:52 <davdunc> basically making a decision to use cloud-init if it is yaml or script?
15:38:24 <dustymabe> yeah, i mean I can't imagine us dropping cloud-init - so we'd probably have to make it either/or
15:38:41 <davdunc> Eighth_Doctor mhayden how much lift do you see here?
15:38:48 <mhayden> switching to ignition for good would allow us to remove a lot of python-related deps from the image, but it would make fedora an oddball in clouds
15:38:57 <davdunc> yea.
15:39:01 <dcavalca> agreed, I think we'll have to keep both
15:39:11 <mhayden> would be sweet to offer both potentially
15:39:15 <davdunc> A lot of documentation from providers would just fail.
15:39:36 <davdunc> it seems like a significant amount of effort though.
15:39:39 <mhayden> quite true, and that's the last thing we would want to do
15:40:07 <davdunc> Can we look at making this a change proposal?
15:40:11 <michel-slm> there's also the option of, down the line, offering separate images for both
15:40:21 <michel-slm> but that's probably overkill
15:40:48 <davdunc> michel-slm: that might be easier in the short-term than creating a failover mechanism.
15:40:57 <davdunc> unless there is already one in ignition.
15:41:29 * mhayden is glad we 'ignited' this conversation at least 🤭
15:41:42 * davdunc as well!
15:42:11 <Eighth_Doctor> hm?
15:42:13 <dustymabe> Not sure what ignition does right now.. probably barfs because the config isn't valid Ignition config, but we could probably change it to ignore
15:42:15 * Eighth_Doctor needs to switch computers
15:43:12 <davdunc> yea. if it is just a change in the load order, that's no big deal.
15:43:19 <davdunc> #chair King_InuYasha
15:43:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha davdunc dcavalca dustymabe mhayden michel michel-slm
15:43:39 <King_InuYasha> so can someone ask the question again?
15:43:51 <King_InuYasha> this room was out of sync on matrix and I just noticed that, hence switching machine
15:43:54 <davdunc> King_InuYasha: https://pagure.io/cloud-sig/issue/329 Add ignition support
15:44:36 <michel-slm> King_InuYasha: was wondering if that's why you've been so quiet :)
15:44:46 <King_InuYasha> hah, it's because none of the messages were making it through
15:45:23 <King_InuYasha> I don't know much about ignition+cloud-init on the same image
15:45:30 <michel-slm> King_InuYasha: yeah, I mentioned that in our group chat but I wondered if you don't see that either
15:45:37 <davdunc> there needs to be some logic to one over the other and cloud-init is slow enough as it is.
15:45:41 <King_InuYasha> yeah
15:47:38 <King_InuYasha> I think the right way would be to check if ignition config is provided on boot, and if it isn't then ignition queues a file to be written to disable itself for cloud-init
15:47:38 <davdunc> but I see a lot of value in the discussion and finding the non-convergent use-cases.
15:47:38 <King_InuYasha> since ignition doesn't run on every boot, we can eat that cost on the first boot
15:47:38 <dustymabe> i don't really think boot will be any slower
15:47:38 <dustymabe> well
15:47:38 <dustymabe> i take that back
15:47:38 <davdunc> dustymabe: we'll find out, but I suspect you are right.
15:47:38 <dustymabe> ignition operates in the initramfs - and thus needs networking to be brought up there
15:47:38 <davdunc> it will take some decision time.
15:47:40 <dustymabe> so that's the biggest "slowdown" that I can think of
15:48:03 <dustymabe> but once it's up it then will see the config isn't for ignition and will NOP
15:48:46 <King_InuYasha> well, it doesn't need networking to determine that
15:48:50 <davdunc> then cloud-init will see the default config and act without regard for ignition.
15:49:01 <davdunc> it ddoes King_InuYasha
15:49:12 <davdunc> for ec2 metadata there has to be link local
15:49:12 <King_InuYasha> how come?
15:49:16 <King_InuYasha> for ignition?
15:49:22 <davdunc> yes.
15:49:28 <dustymabe> King_InuYasha: sure it does need networking to determine that
15:49:50 <dustymabe> needs to contact a metadata service (depending on the cloud) to get the config
15:50:15 <davdunc> some are direct device, but there are a bunch that rely on that eucalyptus-ago model.
15:51:09 <davdunc> so we need a change proposal and then we can work out the details.
15:51:35 <dustymabe> well.. i'd say first we need a volunteer to drive the work
15:51:41 <dustymabe> without that it's dead in the water anyway
15:51:58 <King_InuYasha> the ignition thing is jdoss' baby
15:52:04 <davdunc> dustymabe:  I believe you are correct.
15:52:34 <davdunc> well, do we want to see if jdoss is interested in joining us on this journey? I would enjoy that very much.
15:52:35 <dustymabe> yeah, if jdoss wants to drive it +1
15:53:33 <davdunc> okay. I'll take an action item to work with jdoss  and find out if there is bandwidth and if there is sufficient interest in making it work.
15:54:34 <davdunc> #action davdunc to follow up with jdoss on driving the adoption of ignition along with cloud-init
15:55:15 <davdunc> one more.
15:55:25 <davdunc> actually.
15:55:33 <davdunc> I think we are down to time.
15:55:45 <davdunc> let's go to open floor.
15:55:56 <davdunc> #topic open floor
15:56:09 <davdunc> Anyone have anything they want to cover specifically.
15:56:10 <davdunc> ?
15:56:32 <dustymabe> Not I. Thanks for running the meeting.
15:57:07 <davdunc> King_InuYasha: brought up edk2 state in fedora this morning. That's falling behind RHEL even. We should keep our eye on that.
15:57:20 <King_InuYasha> yeah
15:57:25 <King_InuYasha> the PMBR bug isn't fixed in Fedora
15:57:31 <King_InuYasha> it's fixed in RHEL, SLE, and openSUSE
15:57:41 <michel-slm> thanks davdunc
15:57:44 <davdunc> Fedora Release party is tomorrow everyone.
15:57:59 <King_InuYasha> are you doing something for the release party?
15:58:03 <michel-slm> is edk2 maintained by a different person in Fedora vs RHEL?
15:58:21 <davdunc> King_InuYasha: I am giving a talk on the State of the cloud image.
15:58:22 <michel-slm> maybe we should ping both sides and see if there's ever an attempt to merge changes back, because this is weird
15:58:24 <dustymabe> King_InuYasha: do you have a link?
15:58:41 <davdunc> michel-slm: it is.
15:58:45 * michel-slm didn't see any schedule for the release party in hopin, is it elsewhere?
15:58:52 <King_InuYasha> dustymabe: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1978966
15:59:06 <mhayden> another member of the community wants to work on packaging more cloud tools in Fedora -- hopefully I can report back on that soon
15:59:08 <mhayden> he suggested a SIG
15:59:21 <dustymabe> mhayden: i'm all for that existing!
15:59:24 <dustymabe> thanks for your hard work
15:59:27 <davdunc> mhayden: bring them here!
15:59:32 <King_InuYasha> well, cloud tools would go in this WG, wouldn't it?
15:59:34 <mhayden> will do
15:59:43 <davdunc> King_InuYasha: I think so too.
15:59:47 <King_InuYasha> that's kinda our thing after all
15:59:52 <davdunc> for sure.
16:00:07 <davdunc> alrighty, we should get out of the way for the next group.
16:00:14 <davdunc> thanks everyone for attending!
16:00:26 <dustymabe> King_InuYasha: sounds like there's not much for us to do but wait on the package maintainer?
16:00:34 <King_InuYasha> probably, yeah
16:00:41 <davdunc> I think that's right.
16:00:45 <King_InuYasha> it's just concerning because it prevents us from dropping hacks in our images
16:00:54 <davdunc> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1978966
16:01:04 <davdunc> yes.
16:01:23 <davdunc> okay. we'll carry over to #fedora-cloud now.
16:01:31 <davdunc> #endmeeting