14:06:54 <jzb> #startmeeting
14:06:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 13 14:06:54 2014 UTC.  The chair is jzb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:06:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:07:01 <jzb> #meetingname Fedora Cloud Workgroup
14:07:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_cloud_workgroup'
14:07:09 <gnokii> jzb fedbot is already enabled to do that ;)
14:07:32 <jzb> #chair frankieonuonga mattdm number80 samkottler
14:07:32 <zodbot> Current chairs: frankieonuonga jzb mattdm number80 samkottler
14:07:47 * geppetto is here
14:07:57 <jzb> #chair geppetto
14:07:57 <zodbot> Current chairs: frankieonuonga geppetto jzb mattdm number80 samkottler
14:08:08 * frankieonuonga waves halo
14:08:20 <jzb> OK, if I'm not mistaken, the first order of business is min-data/cloud-init
14:08:31 <mattdm> Sure :)
14:08:42 <jzb> #topic possible cloud-init replacements
14:08:50 <jzb> mattdm: you want to start there?
14:08:53 <mattdm> yeah
14:09:10 <mattdm> I think that this is really a bit premature for actual decision making
14:09:14 <mattdm> i just wanted to start the conversation
14:09:34 <mattdm> Particularly, I think we do want heat to work out of the box on the docker image
14:09:56 <mattdm> and therefore we should do a little more info gathering on what exactly heat needs on the image
14:10:15 <jzb> mattdm: have we pulled in sdake on that?
14:10:24 <jzb> or any other Heat folks?
14:10:35 <mattdm> jzb just the conversation on the list so far
14:10:39 <mattdm> but....
14:10:57 <mattdm> #action mattdm to discuss specific heat requirements with sdake
14:11:11 <mattdm> and then I'll come back with this.
14:11:34 <mattdm> that's not just for cloud-init but also for what might need to go on any rpm-ostree-based image
14:11:52 <mattdm> since you can't easily just yum isntall stuff onto that -- it has to have all the parts in place
14:12:16 <mattdm> once we have that, we can have a more clear picture of what we can do.
14:12:25 <red_trela> if we decide to go with ostree, that is :)
14:12:36 <mattdm> red_trela right, this feeds that decision too
14:12:55 <mattdm> "functional orchestration" is a more important requirement than ostree
14:14:06 <jzb> OK, any more discussion on this one?
14:14:17 * jzb was actually expecting a bit more debate/discussion ;-)
14:15:03 <mattdm> #info http://www.slideshare.net/dotCloud/open-stack-heat-docker-unconference-1
14:15:09 <frankieonuonga> I have to say I am going to be silent on this one..I will look at the docs and give my opinion later
14:16:12 <jzb> OK, I guess we aren't ready to discuss python then?
14:16:31 <red_trela> if we do want Heat working out of the box, their requirements really need to be checked first. and then be matched against what min-metadata-service and coreos-cloudinit offer.
14:16:36 <mattdm> python kinds of falls out from the requirements. if we need it, we need it.
14:16:49 <jzb> yep
14:16:59 <jzb> OK
14:17:02 <red_trela> if we want to include heat-cfntools, we need it.
14:17:19 <jzb> are we ready to discuss whether Docker would use ostree?
14:18:08 <jzb> (this is a much less chatty bunch early in the morning.)
14:18:13 <mattdm> hah
14:18:29 <mattdm> yeah, I thiink we can maybe discuss that. although I also want to look  more into what heat needs to do exactly
14:18:52 <jzb> mattdm: OK
14:18:55 <red_trela> how does heat matter for this?
14:19:31 <number80> hi
14:19:37 <mattdm> red_trela if people want to use heat for docker orchestration (and that's what docker.io is recommending) then it kind of matters, right?
14:20:35 <number80> about heat-cfntools, are we keeping python in the base image ?
14:20:54 <frankieonuonga> I think if we segment this...like go away from what is recommended then that means more of a management over head.
14:21:02 <mattdm> number80 in the _base_ image, we don't have any way to not do it for a long time, so yes
14:21:21 <frankieonuonga> you must have someone who will constantly go in and confirm everything sings well together
14:21:45 <number80> mattdm: ok, so it's not top priority checking with Heat guys about a functional clone without python dependency
14:22:16 <mattdm> number80 I'm planning to talk to them about whether that's useful for the _just docker_ use case.
14:22:25 <frankieonuonga> But of you guys want I can do reverse engineering of this..will take sometime but it is possible
14:22:36 <frankieonuonga> i mean but if...
14:22:48 <mattdm> frankieonuonga that might be useful but let me talk to sdake first
14:23:19 <frankieonuonga> mattdm: cool !
14:23:50 <number80> frankieonuonga: there's no need to reverse engineer it, it's quite standardized if we limit ourselves to the CloudFormation events
14:24:41 <frankieonuonga> number80: Ok . It was just a suggestion. I am cool with anything as long as we get what we want functionally
14:25:25 <mattdm> number80 maybe you can already answer some of the questions I have so I don't have to bother sdake too much :)
14:25:53 <number80> sdake is still more knowledgeable than me about Heat :)
14:26:30 <mattdm> okay. Let's move on to the next topic then, and come back to this next week
14:26:53 <jzb> groovy
14:26:57 <jzb> OK, next topic
14:27:11 <jzb> #topic Getting the community more involved in the Cloud efforts
14:27:34 <jzb> this is a good question, but also, I think a bit chicken/egg?
14:27:49 <jzb> more people need to be using the cloud images, etc. before they're going to get involved.
14:28:09 <frankieonuonga> personally I think it is possible but we will have to get some marketing done out there.
14:28:09 <jzb> And we have to do more work to make them attractive to get to that point. (I think)
14:28:17 <mattdm> jzb +1
14:28:34 <frankieonuonga> like for us at the place i volunteer for work you have to do some form of community drives
14:28:42 <frankieonuonga> it makes people aware of what this is
14:28:55 <frankieonuonga> the problem now is many people still do not get what cloud is in full sense
14:28:57 <red_trela> I tend to think people outside of the cloud ml don't know about our work at all. They hardly know that Fedora.next is a thing but less so about cloud products and the tasks at hand.
14:29:20 <frankieonuonga> I think we might need to do full blown ambassador stuff for this
14:29:21 <jzb> Yeah
14:29:34 <jzb> I think we're failing at getting the fedora.next message out
14:29:36 <frankieonuonga> like release party but instead an awareness party
14:29:45 * number80 has scheduled two talks about fedora cloud in major french/european events (maybe three)
14:29:53 <mattdm> number80 awesome
14:29:59 <mattdm> what else can we do?
14:30:02 <jzb> So, this is where I need to carve out more time.
14:30:03 <frankieonuonga> I can get one going here in nairobi kenya
14:30:12 <mattdm> frankieonuonga also awesome
14:30:13 <red_trela> so while what jzb and frankieonuonga is true mid-/long-termish, short-termish more planet coverage would help a lot I guess
14:30:24 <number80> spread the good word, I'm with frankieonuonga on that point
14:30:33 * mattdm doesn't read the planet because there's so much noise
14:30:49 <number80> red_trela: we already have a blog, maybe sharing access to more people ?
14:30:55 <roshi> are there, "Getting started with Cloud" docs on the wiki?
14:31:07 <mattdm> roshi there's some out of date ones.
14:31:22 <mattdm> the Fedora wiki is really ill-suited to user documentation
14:31:29 <roshi> this is true :)
14:31:32 <red_trela> I don't even think people need to be involed with clouds themselves to be interested in working on the cloud product.
14:31:42 <roshi> +1 red_trela
14:31:52 <jzb> number80: anyone who wants an account on the blog, I'm happy to set up
14:31:56 <jzb> but there is too much noise.
14:32:01 <jzb> (almost wrote "too much nose")
14:32:02 <frankieonuonga> I can get started with an awareness party and all. I can also go ahead and get going with some documentation. More essentially I think we need to do a bi weekly hangout and share with people
14:32:07 <frankieonuonga> this will also go a long way
14:32:19 <frankieonuonga> and it will help and allow people to watch at will
14:32:23 <roshi> I'm interested in cloud, but don't really have a personal use for it
14:32:29 <mattdm> frankieonuonga getting started with docs sounds good
14:32:36 <jzb> I've pinged a few groups (outside cloud) to ask if they can, for example, summarize meetings to put on Fedora Magazine, but no takers
14:32:38 <mattdm> tell me more about the hangouts idea?
14:32:39 <number80> jzb: if you have few guidelines or posts wishlists, we could help you in populating the blog
14:32:49 <jzb> (meeting minutes != not human consumable for outsiders)
14:32:57 <frankieonuonga> mattdm: It is more like a webinar
14:33:05 <frankieonuonga> or a podcast
14:33:07 <mattdm> #info meeting minutes not consumable for outsiders
14:33:15 <jzb> lol
14:33:16 <frankieonuonga> but we start from the bottom and go up
14:33:19 <jzb> nice
14:33:19 <frankieonuonga> descrribe what it is this is
14:33:20 <mattdm> #halp more blog posts would be great; meeting summaries are a good start
14:33:29 <frankieonuonga> and then move on from there
14:33:45 <jzb> where is everybody located?
14:33:48 <frankieonuonga> by the time we are at end year it will also ask as a resource pool for information
14:33:55 <jzb> what about Cloud / DevOps meetup groups nearby?
14:34:10 <frankieonuonga> hangouts can be on air then we do local things depending on where people are
14:34:27 <mattdm> jzb I've gone to quite a few in boston but I normally listen and chat will people after -- I haven't presented anything
14:34:30 <jzb> who'd like to be on the Upstream podcast with me to talk about cloud / Fedora.Next?
14:34:42 <jzb> mattdm: you should present
14:34:46 <frankieonuonga> jzb: I am in
14:34:46 * red_trela is probably going to LinuxCon/CloudOpen Japan in May - primarily assisting RDO folks with their booth
14:35:26 <mattdm> red_trela the fedora cloud brochures at fosdem were good. we should make sure you have some of those.
14:35:28 <jzb> red_trela: nice!
14:35:29 <frankieonuonga> I however wish we could also get some funding to create some hype .
14:35:31 <mattdm> jzb can you do that?
14:35:39 <mattdm> also maybe to frankieonuonga?
14:35:44 <frankieonuonga> posters and stickers....and maybe a t or two.
14:35:49 <number80> jzb: I'm in Lyon (and tonight presenting ansible to openstack folks)
14:35:50 <jzb> mattdm: get the brochures?
14:36:12 <mattdm> jzb yes -- i don't know where they come from.
14:36:12 <jzb> mattdm: I can, but they're not (currently) translated.
14:36:57 <number80> jzb: I can translate them in French and in Spanish
14:37:24 <jzb> number80: excellent.
14:37:32 <jzb> Anyone up for translating to Japanese?
14:37:35 <walters> (hi, sorry i'm rather late, was double booked)
14:38:51 <walters> any questions i can answer about the min-metadata-service/ostree items?
14:38:55 <mattdm> walters we're going to talk about ostree more next week -- want to do some info gathering from heat people
14:39:07 <walters> mattdm, makes sense
14:39:24 <walters> so one thing i wanted to add is that there's tools like policycoreutils-python that provide useful tools that admins expect
14:39:32 <walters> mainly "semanage"
14:40:03 <number80> my japanese is limited to "domo arigato misuta roboto" and swearing
14:40:10 <red_trela> jzb: I could possibly ask someone but chances are that person is already too busy otherwise
14:40:39 <frankieonuonga> number80: ha ha ha to the cursing
14:40:49 <mattdm> walters yeah I think we're gonna have python in the base image for a long time. but maybe we can get Cheetah out of there :)
14:40:55 <jzb> red_trela: will a brochure be useful if it's in English?
14:41:30 <red_trela> jzb: I do think LinuxCon/CloudOpen is international, i.e. many non-Japanese folks will be there. But it's my first so I can't tell.
14:42:18 <red_trela> jzb: but having both sure would be appreciated by the local community
14:42:34 <jzb> red_trela: Can't say. Haven't been to any in that area. I expect it's b/c there's a large community in Japan they try to reach and probably pulls in from the rest of the region.
14:43:37 <jzb> I'm going to start a list discussion on what we can do on this
14:43:48 <red_trela> jzb: pretty sure it's big enough to pull in people from all over Asia/APAC
14:43:55 <jzb> several people volunteered for things here, but we can keep the discussion going there.
14:43:59 <mattdm> jzb discussion on translation or bigger?
14:44:03 <jzb> will also add a section to the wiki
14:44:10 <jzb> mattdm: ah, sorry - promotion
14:44:22 <mattdm> for the minutes -- everybody #action the things they are going to do :)
14:44:22 <jzb> #action jzb to get red_trela files for existing Cloud Brochure
14:45:54 <jzb> other folks?
14:45:59 * jzb waits for action items
14:46:38 <frankieonuonga> sorry to ask this guys...but what did we decide about podcasts, e.t.c or should we move this to the mailing list
14:46:46 <frankieonuonga> and take it off from there
14:47:00 <jzb> frankieonuonga: a lot of ideas were thrown out, some specific, some not.
14:47:01 <mattdm> #action frankieonuonga to organize something about podcasts etc. on mailing list
14:47:03 <mattdm> :)
14:47:18 <frankieonuonga> cool !
14:47:39 <jzb> OK, any other topics today?
14:47:39 <mattdm> does someone other than me want to talk about fedora cloud on joe's podcast?
14:48:01 * frankieonuonga would love to
14:49:00 <jzb> frankieonuonga: do you have Skype, a good microphone, and good Internet connection?
14:49:05 <red_trela> did people see my mail regarding the modular kernel packaging change? that okay for everyone?
14:49:10 <frankieonuonga> jzb: yes I do
14:49:18 <jzb> easiest way to get remote 'casts is over Skype so far. Phone, not so good.
14:49:18 <mattdm> red_trela saw it, didn't have a chance to test yet
14:49:35 <mattdm> red_trela or, did you mean promoting to system-wide change?
14:49:37 <frankieonuonga> jzb: after meeting we could give it a test run
14:49:39 <mattdm> if the latter, +1
14:49:43 <red_trela> mattdm: the latter, yea
14:49:58 <jzb> frankieonuonga: I have a call in 10 minutes, then I'm out for a bit
14:50:11 <jzb> we'll need to do that next week
14:50:17 <red_trela> fwiw, the latest kernel build works for me but still requires fine-tuning (minor bug and sound drivers still in wrong package)
14:50:33 <frankieonuonga> jzb: well then cool. i will send you my skype alias on private chat
14:50:41 <jzb> OK
14:51:40 <jzb> other topics?
14:51:48 <jzb> #topic New Business
14:52:22 * mattdm drinks coffee
14:52:27 <red_trela> so, fyi, obviously I'm already writing said change proposal and will send it to the ml for review before setting it ready for wrangler
14:52:50 <mattdm> I guess the other business is: people should pick up items that don't have owners
14:53:23 <mattdm> #halp changes on the list at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_Changelist which don't have owners need owners
14:53:38 <frankieonuonga> I have to confess and openly admit I have not really been in the loop for a while but I will make sure I do that
14:53:53 <mattdm> frankieonuonga don't be afraid to grab stuff.
14:54:01 <jzb> frankieonuonga: you'll need to be in the loop for the podcast ;-)
14:54:20 * red_trela already grabbed some and will grab more once the first things seem to work out ;)
14:54:23 <frankieonuonga> jzb: in two days I will be
14:54:32 <mattdm> red_trela yes -- thank you for being awesome :)
14:54:49 <frankieonuonga> Jzb: dont worry about it
14:55:10 <jzb> OK, anything else?
14:55:38 <red_trela> mattdm: well, haven't been awesome in a while due to my move to Tokyo and such so it's time to catch up :)
14:55:45 <jzb> going once...
14:55:46 <mattdm> red_trela lol
14:55:50 <jzb> twice...?
14:55:56 <jzb> OK, thanks everybody!
14:55:57 <mattdm> thanks jzb!
14:56:00 <jzb> #endmeeting