18:03:13 <decause> #startmeeting Fedora Council 18:03:13 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan 11 18:03:13 2016 UTC. The chair is decause. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:03:13 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:03:13 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_council' 18:03:28 <decause> #topic Modularization Update with Langdon 18:03:39 <decause> #link https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/stream/a2dbhl762i2p6q7xzffxp74wrma?pqs=1&hl=en&authuser=0 18:03:49 * decause will post link at end 18:03:56 <decause> *langdon talking now* 18:04:13 <decause> I will stop saying your name from here lwhite ;) 18:04:27 <decause> We're at stage 2 or 3 of the rings proposal 18:04:33 <mattdm> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9aQC_oOKo&feature=youtu.be 18:04:42 <decause> so, what we've been talking about is how can we go to th enext step 18:04:43 <mattdm> #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9aQC_oOKo&feature=youtu.be 18:04:54 <decause> we were talking about simplifying and increasing what is available as far as REpos in Fedora 18:04:58 <decause> to allow for the growth of things 18:05:03 <mattdm> (the hangouts one will only allow 10 people) 18:05:13 <decause> how do we be more open ended, so that projects not at their "perfect" state can still participate 18:05:17 <decause> and distribute with Fedora 18:05:24 <decause> even when packaging (and code) is not quite right yet 18:05:29 <decause> keeping constraints lower 18:05:40 * robyduck here 18:05:42 <bexelbie> mattdm, do you need people to drop (/me had joined) 18:05:49 <mattdm> bexelbie: nope fine so far 18:05:51 <decause> another aspect was to deconstruct the distribution, so that compenents can be installable and have more lattitude on how they ar edistributed 18:05:57 <bexelbie> mattdm, don't hesitate to let me know if you do 18:06:05 <decause> echo... 18:06:25 <decause> q from mattdm: what is user benefit? 18:06:32 <decause> lwhite: chicken and egg thing 18:06:53 <decause> something like httpd, it could be in beta or alpha, and you want to install it under certain conditions 18:07:04 <decause> like for the "latest and greatest" version of your site, and you need a feature 18:07:15 <decause> but sometimes, you need to run your "regular old" mature and stable state versions 18:07:25 <decause> you want to b eable to disconnect when an application runs, and which version 18:07:33 <decause> we have ways to do this, but they are not consistent or pretty 18:07:46 <decause> some of this objective to make this a consistant and well understood solution 18:07:50 <decause> another example 18:07:57 <decause> you wanna ahve parallel installs 18:08:08 <decause> 2 different versions of sometthing depending on edition 18:08:22 <decause> in the server edition, you may want something very mature, but in the workstation, you want the more bleeding-edge 18:08:34 <decause> in the human/user case, it can be less reliable, or be more favorable on the UI side 18:08:58 <decause> on server side, maybe you want locked down and secure, but on workstation, maybe you want devs to use the other 18:09:07 <decause> #topic Where are we on this? 18:09:20 <decause> it's not going entirely well, but there is progress 18:09:34 <decause> the Envs/Stacks WG is where the bulk of this happened 18:09:47 <decause> nick coughlin's thread Alpeh Proposal 18:09:50 <decause> there are links 18:09:55 <decause> (someone link here plz?) 18:10:14 <decause> inclusion of applications inside of Fedora, without getting all the guarantees a typical package gets 18:10:19 <decause> arguing whether this is stage 2 or 4 18:10:21 <mattdm> links! 18:10:22 <decause> 3* 18:10:23 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Projects/PackageReviewProcessRedesign 18:10:24 <decause> you can package anything 18:10:30 <decause> becuase COPR has been a great success 18:10:37 <decause> it has plugins for dnf, so it "just works" 18:10:49 <mattdm> #link https://copr.fedoraproject.org/ 18:10:49 <decause> some aspects of modularity doesn't allow parallel, but alternate versions 18:11:03 <decause> you can have bleeding-edge python avialble, even when there is something native 18:11:11 <decause> I was using a bunch of gnome3 addons this way 18:11:18 <decause> another initative by WG is the playground initiative 18:11:27 <decause> #topic Playground Initiative 18:11:34 <decause> a set of "Core" COPRs 18:11:44 <decause> closer to Fedora distro, to be part of set 18:11:49 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Playground_repository 18:11:51 <decause> whil enot "completely" stable, theya r emoving int he right direction 18:12:06 <decause> the playground idea is simple access to all the COPRs demarcated as part of the playground 18:12:12 <decause> one repo to access them all 18:12:20 <decause> once step closer to distro-wide 18:12:27 <decause> another initiatvie from base WG 18:12:32 <decause> #topic BaseWG 18:12:42 <decause> they would define hte packages that are teh "Base" of each edition 18:13:04 <decause> the other aspect of pulling ocntent away from the OS, and defining the tight aspect of OS, versus everything else 18:13:15 <decause> which means definging the "bare minimum" that needs to be shared by all environments 18:13:23 <decause> which can include containers, server/workstation Editions 18:13:33 <decause> all the things that underpin apps that we should distribute in a distro 18:13:38 <decause> there have been some fits and starts 18:13:46 <decause> there are some applications that have been identified as "base" 18:13:54 <decause> but the charter definition has been a challenge 18:14:01 <decause> "what does bare minimum mean?" 18:14:09 <decause> is it just enough to get a prompt? 18:14:20 <decause> where does the C runtime fit in? Is it part of base, or some higher layer? 18:14:36 <decause> going further int he inclusive direction, should we include systemd? Or is that too far up the stack? 18:14:44 <decause> there have been many cicular discussions on that 18:14:52 <decause> #topic Prototype Proposals 18:15:10 <decause> I made some proposals, and those have somewhat stalled due to discussion 18:15:17 <decause> that is the update on the progress we've made 18:15:24 <decause> #topic Biggest Win 18:15:30 <decause> easily, this has been COPR 18:15:40 <decause> #topic Questions 18:15:53 <decause> mattdM: What is the state of the Playground Repo? 18:16:10 <decause> lwhite: Stalled. Env/Stacks WG hasnt' met in a while, and needs to get back on track 18:16:25 <decause> next steps for playground is drawing a line in the sand, putting something up, and seeing what happens 18:16:38 <decause> don't worry if it is the right answer or not, just put something up, and start somewhere 18:16:41 <decause> other questions? 18:16:50 <decause> next slide 18:16:58 <decause> #topic Updates needed 18:17:04 <robyduck> sorry decause I need to dive into this more, is the playground stuff on trac? 18:17:05 <decause> the wiki pages 18:17:16 <decause> robyduck: it is stalled, but discussions are ongoing 18:17:23 <decause> we're talking about going forward now 18:17:30 <robyduck> ok 18:17:44 <decause> lwhite: I've been writing up process for endusers to make decisions about whether this package is what you want to install 18:17:47 <decause> for example 18:17:52 <decause> when you do a package review, provide that info as metadata 18:18:10 <decause> I can choose to install a package, even if it failed package review, if this violation is tolerable "for me" as a user 18:18:12 <mattdm> robyduck: I think this is the latest draft 18:18:14 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Playground_repository_%28draft%29 18:18:32 <decause> we can bring that info to the end user, when package review fails, with exceptions, such as license review failures 18:18:37 <decause> then individual users can decide 18:18:45 <decause> allt he defaults would be against current model 18:18:55 <decause> another aspect is to bring the work within RHT, to the community 18:18:59 <decause> we've been struggling with how to do that 18:19:05 <decause> proposals around what base could look like 18:19:07 <robyduck> mattdm: thank you :) 18:19:20 <decause> inside, we're interested to help solve that problem, and we want to bring that experience into the ocmmunity 18:19:33 <decause> those are 2 steps 18:20:09 <decause> If we take the first step of allowing an enduser to understand which aspects are compliant, or what quality a metric is at, it opens up possobilities to get wway from the "perfect" concetric rings 18:20:19 <decause> it makes sense, we want a nice metaphor, but what I think is happening 18:20:23 <decause> there are orthogonal metrics 18:20:30 <decause> I have 3/4 of an email written up about this 18:20:40 <decause> where you want ot give someone a "mutual fund" style profile 18:20:47 <decause> "I'm a low-risk desktop user" 18:20:56 <decause> and then you get a guided version 18:21:08 <decause> "My risk profile is I want to retire in 2050, so I map to these mutual funds" 18:21:13 <decause> something along those lines 18:21:25 <decause> you don't worry about pretty rings, you map risk profile to a type of user 18:21:37 <decause> and then allow them to pick components that automatically map to risk profiles 18:21:50 <decause> the concern I have is, we have a 0 or a 1 18:21:59 <seseri> quick wuestion about getting copr packages into the playground repo 18:22:00 <decause> this package has perfect metrics, or it has one or more imperfect 18:22:05 <decause> it makes a binary decision 18:22:11 <decause> seseri: will post 18:22:16 <seseri> is that only something the owner can do? or will there be a kind of "voting" system 18:22:17 <decause> decause will post in the gchat 18:22:41 <decause> seseri++ 18:22:41 <zodbot> decause: Karma for ageha changed to 1 (for the f23 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:22:42 <decause> posted 18:22:57 <decause> mattdm: the other problem, is that 1's are not actually ones 18:23:04 <decause> things are .6 to .8 in reality 18:23:23 <decause> packaging quality can be measured. You can measure bugginess, and list additional info 18:23:31 <decause> lwhite: it would be interesting to integrate karma into the output 18:23:37 <decause> rather than a 0/1 18:23:46 <decause> you can see when it is promoted or closer to ring 0 18:23:54 <decause> can we actually include info about deployments 18:24:01 <decause> how often to people include a particular package? 18:24:17 <decause> of these two markdown viewers, 57% use this one, and 2% use that one 18:24:42 <decause> mattdm: Does the packager include it? IS there a separate committee? Is it crowdsourced? 18:24:52 <decause> lwhite: it will depend on metric, and we need to increase automation. 18:25:07 <decause> some piece of software can look and make a determination, for say, test coverage 18:25:13 <mattdm> #info automate all the things! 18:25:14 <decause> the data needs to be auto-updated 18:25:20 <decause> there will be some self-review stuff 18:25:26 <decause> and the FPC will continue to do their thing 18:25:36 <decause> but instead of doing a review, they markup the package itself 18:25:45 <decause> and then we'd need to be able to degrade that info overtime 18:26:01 <decause> if a review hasn't been done in over a eyar, then we can verify the "recentness" of the information 18:26:18 <decause> mattdm: when a package comes into Fedora, we hvae people look over it, and an automated script to check things like where files are put. 18:26:25 <decause> that script has a checklist as an output 18:26:38 <decause> having that output, be part of the metadata, or some abstract of it, would be useful 18:26:59 <decause> lwhite: we'll put the presentation someowhere useful to find 18:27:07 <decause> #action decause post presentation to commblog 18:27:18 <decause> #topic Current Status 18:27:22 <decause> we're moving in fits and starts 18:27:27 <decause> we need more people to participate 18:27:36 <decause> the best place to find them is the Envs/Stacks WG 18:27:54 <decause> we need to reengage, and relieve some pressure from the work we do "all the time" so we can move forward with this work 18:28:07 <decause> seseri: did you get your question answered? 18:28:15 <seseri> no 18:28:28 <langdon> seseri, can you repeat for me? 18:28:33 <decause> 13:22 < seseri> is that only something the owner can do? or will there be a kind of "voting" system 18:28:51 <seseri> *getting copr packages into playground 18:28:59 <mattdm> ahhhhh. 18:29:05 <decause> it's not just the ideas, it's the concept 18:29:08 <mattdm> I thought you were talking about someone else :) 18:29:10 <decause> there have been infra and tool changes 18:29:20 <decause> I'd very much like to see increased participation because we need peopel to do work 18:29:56 <decause> mattdm: how do repos get included in playground? 18:30:10 <decause> lwhite: it would be both self-nominated, and FPC review style 18:30:17 <decause> *lwhite digs for a link* 18:30:35 <decause> lwhite: the proposal didn't get approved, but we don't know yet 18:30:43 <decause> ENS or FPC will likely have final approval 18:30:58 <decause> (mattdm likes ENS) 18:31:05 <decause> as an acronym 18:31:55 <decause> #action decause talk to langdon about generating a task list for new contributors to get involved in Envs/Stacks 18:32:03 <bexelbie> Did we need to talk about flock bids? 18:32:07 <decause> #topic UnixStickers 18:32:23 <decause> #info We have approved UnixStickers to use our trademark 18:32:38 <decause> #info we'll be able to get free stickers for conferences 18:32:52 <decause> there will be other merch as the design team approves other artwork 18:33:35 <decause> #topic Other Business 18:33:41 <decause> #info video is off 18:33:55 <decause> is that it for council today then? 18:33:59 <decause> going once 18:34:02 <decause> going twice 18:34:05 <decause> going thrice 18:34:06 <bexelbie> did we need to talk about flock bids? 18:34:27 <decause> bexelbie: I reckon not. I would maybe just ping the flock-planning list to ask if anyone has questions? 18:34:39 <decause> cc me on that if you'd like 18:34:41 <bexelbie> I'll do so after a site visit this weekend 18:34:46 <decause> bexelbie: great! 18:34:57 <decause> bexelbie: take pics, maybe we can do a "teaser" post on the CommBlog ;) 18:35:02 <decause> please :) 18:35:13 <bexelbie> decause, heh, I'll see what I can do 18:35:17 <decause> :) 18:35:20 <decause> ok 18:35:25 <decause> I think that is it for council today 18:35:28 <decause> any other business 18:35:31 <decause> going once 18:35:34 <decause> going twice 18:35:37 <decause> going thrice 18:35:40 <decause> ok, thanks all 18:35:43 <decause> langdon++ 18:35:45 <decause> mattdm++ 18:35:50 <decause> thanks all for your time today 18:35:53 <decause> #endmeeting