23:00:17 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
23:00:17 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun  9 23:00:17 2010 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:00:17 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
23:00:27 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
23:00:27 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
23:00:32 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
23:00:35 * Sparks .
23:00:44 * radsy is here
23:00:54 * jjmcd 
23:01:04 * rudi is here
23:01:12 * crantila is here
23:01:38 <rudi> Hey crantila! Welcome! :)
23:01:59 <crantila> thanks!  Thought I should show up...
23:02:17 <Sparks> Always nice to see new...  nicks
23:02:33 <Sparks> Okay, let's get started.
23:02:57 <Sparks> To help us keep on the time schedule, if you have something to say please send a . so I know to wait for you.
23:03:22 <Sparks> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
23:03:48 <Sparks> #link http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2010-06-02/fedora_docs.2010-06-02-23.00.log.html
23:04:05 <Sparks> Okay...  jjmcd you look like you are clear until later this month.
23:04:12 <jjmcd> Good thing
23:04:19 <Sparks> rudi: I think this is up: rudi_ to come back in two weeks with whether or not there is significant translation activity.
23:04:21 <jjmcd> Only been worried about nukes this week
23:04:31 <Emad78> me just made it
23:04:36 * Emad78 just made it
23:05:16 <Sparks> rudi: ?
23:05:21 <rudi> There's still a little, but the reason we wanted to know that was before
23:05:30 <rudi> we moved the repos around
23:05:37 <rudi> which nb has done for us now anyway
23:05:42 <Sparks> heh
23:05:42 <rudi> So it's all good :)
23:05:44 <Sparks> okay...
23:06:02 * jjmcd needs to fix the arg build on account of that but np
23:06:02 <rudi> He worked in with L10N to make sure that everything got connected up again right
23:06:16 <Sparks> Sparks to move the CMS discussion to the docs list - completed
23:06:27 <Sparks> #action Sparks to write an article on the new docs.fp.o and the guides within
23:06:34 <Sparks> Sparks to bring up F14 guide goals on docs list - Completed
23:06:50 <Sparks> #action rudi and jjmcd to come up with updates to the schedule for F14 release by 30 June 2010.
23:07:03 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to have doc-publican-rpm packaged and submitted for review by 14 July
23:07:18 <Sparks> #action rudi to come back in two weeks with whether or not there is significant translation activity.
23:07:32 <Sparks> rudi: Found one for you...  rudi to talk with Jeff (jfearn) about using Koji with Publican and English docs on translated ToC and bring responses to the 09 June meeting.
23:08:22 <rudi> Sorry, I haven't done that yet
23:08:41 <rudi> Oh sorry, yeah I have :)
23:08:44 <rudi> Some of it anyway
23:09:21 <rudi> We're working out how to actually present the English docs on non-English pags
23:09:23 <rudi> pages
23:09:48 <rudi> and have not yet been able to come up with a solution that both meets Fedora policy guidelines on the one hand
23:09:54 <rudi> and doesn't look hideous on the other
23:09:56 <rudi> :)
23:10:12 <rudi> It's the Koji stuff we haven't discussed in detail yet
23:10:14 <Sparks> a policy guideline?
23:10:34 <rudi> Well, one suggestion was to use flag icons to mark untranslated documents
23:10:50 <rudi> But then we found a policy that says (sensibly, I think) not to do that
23:11:00 <Sparks> Yeah, flags aren't a good idea
23:11:12 <rudi> Yeah, too potentially inflammatory
23:11:36 <Sparks> yes
23:12:03 <rudi> So we're trying to find a solution that communicates meaning, but doesn't force book titles to wrap
23:12:17 <Sparks> Okay.  So you can come back next week with more information?
23:12:26 <rudi> Yep; will report again next week
23:12:46 <rudi> I can at least say that we want to implement this and are working on it :)
23:13:13 <Sparks> #action rudi to discuss docs.fp.o's non-translated docs.
23:13:20 <Sparks> Okay, anything else before we move on?
23:13:29 <rudi> .
23:13:31 <Sparks> rudi: go
23:13:39 <rudi> also action me to talk about Koji again next week
23:14:34 <Sparks> #action rudi to discuss Koji 16 June 2010
23:14:45 <Sparks> Anyone else?
23:15:00 <Sparks> #topic Schedule for F13 for F14
23:15:10 <Sparks> #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-docs-tasks.html
23:15:18 <Sparks> #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-docs-tree-tasks.html
23:15:34 <Sparks> poelcat sent these links out earlier this week.
23:15:43 <Sparks> I haven't had a chance to look over them, yet.
23:16:02 <Sparks> jjmcd: I think this falls under your todo list.
23:16:07 <jjmcd> yep
23:16:18 <jjmcd> But I'll want to make a gantt chart to digest it
23:16:22 <rudi> Me too, but I haven't had time to look yet either :)
23:17:12 <Sparks> heh
23:17:21 <Sparks> jjmcd: I'm sure the source is available somewhere
23:17:46 <jjmcd> Poelcat generally puts the source on his fedorapeople, but it doesn't seem to help much
23:18:03 <jjmcd> He goes by dates rather than dependencies
23:18:10 <Sparks> oh
23:18:26 <Sparks> jjmcd: Will you publish your chart when you get it completed?
23:18:52 <jjmcd> I could, although in the past I've only made it "good enough" for me to understand
23:18:59 <jjmcd> So it might be misleading
23:19:08 <Sparks> okay, don't publish it... :)
23:19:23 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else on the schedule?
23:19:53 <Sparks> I encourage everyone to take a look at it and if you have any questions about it please bring it to the list.
23:20:11 <Sparks> #topic CMS
23:20:28 <Sparks> #idea Did Publican replace Zikula?
23:20:37 <Sparks> I think we have discussed this on the list.
23:21:10 <Sparks> I'd like to take a vote, tonight, on whether or not to continue Zikula roll out for docs.fp.o...
23:21:15 <Sparks> or to stay with Publican.
23:21:34 <Sparks> Any questions or comments?
23:21:42 <jjmcd> I have lots of comments
23:21:51 <Sparks> jjmcd: go ahead
23:22:02 <jjmcd> Firstly, perhaps the Publican site makes the Zikula thing moot
23:22:04 <jjmcd> However
23:22:28 <jjmcd> Zikula promised all sorts of wonderfulness, none of which did I see any evidence of
23:22:38 <jjmcd> Or counter evidence for that matter
23:22:59 <Sparks> yeah
23:22:59 <jjmcd> So, before pulling the plug, I think we ought to try to understand whether there is value there
23:23:07 <Sparks> Okay.
23:23:08 <jjmcd> although I am skeptical
23:23:30 <Sparks> I know that Zikula is being used in other areas of Fedora so it's not going to be tossed out of Fedora
23:23:40 <jjmcd> Are all the necessary components now packaged?
23:24:03 <jjmcd> So can I put up a reasonably working test instance locally without huge pain
23:24:18 <jjmcd> Yeah, and so at least the basics work
23:24:32 <rudi> Is it an either/or situation though?
23:24:32 <Sparks> I think so
23:24:46 <jjmcd> But we had hoped to get some workflow goodies out of it, and I haven't been paying close enough attention to see anything there
23:24:51 <Sparks> Well, only one can support docs.fp.o
23:24:57 <jjmcd> rudi, I don't think we know enough to tell
23:25:29 <rudi> Once we have true "fire-and-forget" publishing going through Koji, does Zikula perhaps offer us something in terms of chroming the Publican site or adding extra functionality to it?
23:25:58 <rudi> ie; might wrapping the Publican site in Zikula give us something cool or valuable?
23:26:05 <jjmcd> rudi, I don't think we know.  Z was supposed to offer some workflow benefits
23:26:17 <jjmcd> But we may already have better, we just don't know
23:26:40 <jjmcd> We have streamlined thing A LOT over the past few releases.  Thanks in no small part to you
23:26:55 <rudi> Ta
23:27:20 <jjmcd> I don't want to miss a potential opportunity, but as I said, I am also skeptical
23:27:35 <jjmcd> And my own study of zikula was early and frustrating
23:28:00 <jjmcd> It looked to me to be a lot harder than what we were doing when we first talked about it
23:28:03 <rudi> Sure; I guess I'm just acknowledging that Publican-driven websites are engineering-centric, and although presentable, probably not very visually exciting :)
23:28:32 <jjmcd> But now that the ice has been broken, perhaps it isn't so bad
23:28:50 <jjmcd> I don't know that "exciting" is necessarily all that good
23:28:58 <Sparks> jjmcd: So you want to give it a shot before deciding?
23:29:06 <jjmcd> I think so
23:29:08 <crantila> "exciting" wins a lot of users for Ubuntu
23:29:38 <jjmcd> Well yeah, but Ubuntu doesn't have any docs, and Mo is working at making get fedora exciting
23:29:51 <jjmcd> And Insight, and, and, and
23:30:23 <jjmcd> Personally, I thought the newer prettier get-fedora was a regression
23:30:42 <Sparks> jjmcd: Okay, when can you come back to us with additional input?
23:31:11 <jjmcd> It will need to be a little ways off.  I'll be gone next week, then we got d-p-r, schedule, etc
23:31:43 <Sparks> Okay...  I guess we aren't in great need to make this decision.
23:31:52 <Sparks> and we aren't doing anything with Zikula now so...
23:32:00 <Sparks> we'll come back to this later.
23:32:06 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
23:32:11 <jjmcd> Yeah, no real need to panic
23:32:35 <Sparks> Okay, moving on
23:32:42 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
23:32:46 <Sparks> jjmcd: Anything?
23:32:53 <jjmcd> Nope
23:33:14 <Sparks> Okay, that was quick
23:33:29 <Sparks> Have you gotten many tickets from the f13 release?
23:34:03 <jjmcd> Seems like we had one or two
23:34:20 <jjmcd> There was one I dont recall what it was that would take some noodling
23:34:41 <Sparks> So either you/we did a really good job or people aren't submitting tickets
23:35:28 <Sparks> Anything else?
23:35:39 <jjmcd> not from here
23:36:02 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
23:36:41 <Sparks> Last week I started a wiki page for guide owners to put their goals for F14.
23:36:43 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_guide_goals_for_F14
23:37:15 <Sparks> Most of the guides have goals!  Excellent!
23:37:52 <rudi> Yeah; this is an awesome map to have -- excellent idea Sparks!
23:38:03 <Sparks> So if you don't have anything to work on you can go by the goals page and see where you can pitch in to help.
23:38:23 <Sparks> rudi: Hopefully this will keep people on track!  :)
23:39:15 <radsy> could be a handy page for new people
23:39:20 <Sparks> yep
23:39:46 <Sparks> So anyone have anything to talk about with their guides?
23:40:05 <rudi> crantila -- mind if I put you on the spot here?
23:40:20 <crantila> I was wondering if that would come up...
23:40:49 <rudi> :D
23:40:57 <crantila> I'll be writing the Musicians' Guide as part of the Summer Coding 2010 effort
23:41:11 <crantila> links to everything will be collecting on the project's Trac page: https://fedorahosted.org/musicians-guide/
23:41:35 * Sparks remembers reading about that
23:41:43 <Sparks> crantila: This is an awesome project.
23:41:48 <Sparks> Sounds like a lot of fun.
23:42:10 <crantila> the goal is something to document music and audio software in Fedora, in ways that emphasize real-world use by real-world musicians
23:42:30 <crantila> thanks, Sparks!  It's been an adventure so far, only a few days in
23:42:32 <Sparks> crantila: So this is composing software too?
23:43:07 <crantila> a list of software and topics is available here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Topics
23:43:29 <crantila> not sure what you mean "composing software"
23:44:09 <Sparks> Umm...  like recording and compilation and...
23:44:24 <rudi> Yeah, I think the point is that the Musicians' Guide is primarily for people making music, rather than for playing audio files
23:44:38 <Sparks> Yes.
23:44:40 <crantila> Sparks: then yes, four different programs you might use, depending on exactly what you want
23:45:10 <Sparks> Excellent.  This sounds like a very exciting project.  I can't wait to read it.
23:46:07 <Sparks> jjmcd: I know I've fallen down on helping you with the Amateur Radio Guide.  Any thoughts about releasing that for F14?
23:46:16 <crantila> is there a resource or a method typically used to test/proofread the official Fedora documentation?
23:46:24 <jjmcd> I would like to see that, BUT
23:46:32 <Sparks> crantila: Well...  Kinda sorta.
23:46:51 <jjmcd> A lot of the stuff remaining to be done requires actually using some pretty specialized apps, so it will be tough
23:47:14 <Sparks> crantila: When you get to a point where you want something proofed we can point you in the correct direction.
23:47:24 <Sparks> There are a few people around that are really good at that.
23:47:42 <rudi> crantila -- nothing formalized yet
23:47:52 <Sparks> jjmcd: I'll take a look and see what I can help you with.
23:48:01 <Sparks> jjmcd: Maybe we can just release what we've finished.
23:48:09 <rudi> We're slowly getting some traction with Red Hat's QE department along those lines, but it's early days yet
23:48:15 <jjmcd> Yeah, I've thought about that
23:48:25 <crantila> Sparks: I predict a need for that in two meetings.  This sounds like a project for Summer Coding 2011 :P
23:48:58 <Sparks> crantila: Okay, don't wait for a meeting.  Pop in at #fedora-docs and ask.
23:49:13 <rudi> Sparks, jjmcd -- is the ARG ready enough to put into the drafts section of dfpo yet?
23:49:13 <Sparks> crantila: laubersm is who I'm thinking about but there are others.
23:49:24 <Sparks> rudi: I would...
23:49:37 <jjmcd> It is on groups/docs, so I would say yeah
23:49:40 <crantila> Sparks: okay, will-do.  Thanks
23:49:43 <rudi> Cool ! :)
23:49:43 * Sparks hears quaid saying "Release early, release often.
23:49:54 <rudi> I'll "make it so" :)
23:50:31 <Sparks> I'm guessing we can trim out the parts we don't want in the final version before F14
23:51:18 <Sparks> I'd say mark it draft and publish the entire thing.   Maybe someone will come along and want to add to it.
23:51:30 <Sparks> jjmcd: Is there a bugzilla product for the ARG?
23:51:46 <jjmcd> I dont recall.  Don't think so
23:51:53 <Sparks> Shall I add one?
23:51:59 <jjmcd> There isn't one for the TG either, on my todo to get it
23:52:01 <rudi> Sparks -- oh that reminds me, we'll need a bugzilla component for the Musicians' Guide too
23:52:06 <jjmcd> Yeah
23:52:17 <Sparks> rudi: Yeah, I was just going to ask about that.
23:52:32 <jjmcd> So, why don't you add ARG, MG and TG while you're there
23:52:54 <Sparks> MG?
23:52:56 <Sparks> oh
23:52:58 <Sparks> duh
23:53:05 <Sparks> #action Sparks to create BZ components for the Musicians' Guide, the Amateur Radio Guide, and the Technical Guide.
23:53:12 <Sparks> I'll get that taken care of tonight,
23:53:21 <rudi> Whose is the OpenSSH guide? Radsy?
23:53:34 <Sparks> We have an OpenSSH guide?
23:53:42 <radsy> rudi, me
23:53:43 * Sparks thought that would be in the Security Guide
23:53:45 <rudi> Cool :)
23:54:35 <Sparks> Okay, anything else on this topic?
23:55:12 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
23:55:21 <Sparks> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED
23:56:02 * Sparks notes BZ is running a bit slow tonight
23:56:19 <jjmcd> slower than normal?
23:56:25 <Sparks> yes
23:56:46 <Sparks> Okay, I'll just say to check your components to make sure you are on top of the bugs
23:57:00 <Sparks> #topic All other business
23:57:05 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
23:58:17 <Sparks> Well, I'd like to say thank you to everyone that contributes to the Docs Project.
23:58:38 <Sparks> This is an awesome team and we do most excellent work.
23:58:57 <rudi> .
23:59:28 <Sparks> And each release I always think "I don't know what other guides we could possibly put out" and then crantila come up with the Musicians' Guide...
23:59:49 <Sparks> and others bring their ideas to the table.
23:59:57 <jjmcd> I have a guy needs a dial-up guide
00:00:07 <jjmcd> It seems to border on impossible
00:00:08 <Sparks> The guides aren't easy to write but we turn out some excellent information.
00:00:14 <rudi> While reviewing incoming links to dfpo, courtesy of Google, I noticed quite a few links to the Yum guide that we haven't published since FC5
00:00:15 <Sparks> jjmcd: dial-up?  What's that?
00:00:32 <jjmcd> I think it has to do with rubbing sticks together
00:00:35 <Sparks> rudi: I remember the Yum Guide...
00:00:45 <rudi> I've republished the old doc, but it would be great if someone wanted to revive it
00:01:04 * Sparks would love to but is wondering how he can get everything done.
00:01:05 <jjmcd> yum rocks
00:01:10 * Sparks hearts yum
00:01:46 <rudi> Well, maybe something we can co-opt some new contributors onto :)
00:01:54 <Sparks> +1
00:02:01 <Sparks> Okay, anything else before we secure?
00:02:04 <Emad78> I have no problem jumping in.
00:02:22 * Sparks notes we ran a little over tonight and apologizes.
00:02:42 <Sparks> Emad78: Let's meet in #fedora-docs and discuss this further.
00:02:48 <Emad78> Ok
00:02:53 <Sparks> Anyone else?
00:03:16 <Sparks> Okay, thanks everyone!
00:03:18 <Sparks> #endmeeting