23:00:07 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
23:00:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 28 23:00:07 2010 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:00:07 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
23:00:07 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
23:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
23:00:07 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
23:00:14 * Sparks is here
23:00:21 * Gearoid is here
23:00:40 * crantila is here
23:01:06 * jjmcd 
23:03:14 * rudi is here
23:03:26 <Sparks> Okay, let's get started.
23:03:45 <Sparks> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
23:03:51 <Sparks> jjmcd to have doc-publican-rpm packaged and submitted for review by 21 July
23:04:03 <jjmcd> Still not there
23:04:09 * bethlynn is here
23:04:17 <jjmcd> I have some questions I still haven't gotten answered
23:04:31 <Sparks> Need any help?
23:04:33 <jjmcd> may put it up for review anyway and take the hits
23:04:34 <Sparks> bethlynn: welcome
23:04:47 <Sparks> jjmcd: It might be good to document those hits
23:05:04 <jjmcd> Need to get with someone with deep packaging expertise
23:05:18 <jjmcd> Well, what I know about is in git in TODO
23:05:21 <rudi> nb is our resident proven packager
23:05:29 <jjmcd> Its the ones I *think* I have right
23:05:46 <jjmcd> Cool, cuz I was thinking nb might help us with some infra goodies, too
23:06:06 <Sparks> jjmcd: Okay, thanks for the update
23:06:12 <Sparks> rudi to send a message to EPEL devel and docs discussing his EPEL packages need for Publican
23:06:13 <jjmcd> Don't see him here tonight but I will ping him when I see him
23:06:44 <rudi> Sparks -- I didn't need to do that -- I'm getting plenty of traction now from package owners: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Automating_publishing
23:07:27 <Sparks> #info jjmcd has not submitted doc-publican-rpm for review, yet, and is awaiting some answers to some questions.
23:07:41 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to have doc-publican-rpm packaged and submitted for review by 21 July
23:07:54 <Sparks> rudi: Okay, so you are on go, then.
23:08:07 <rudi> Oh yeah -- momentum building now :D
23:08:36 <rudi> Only 2 packages to go
23:08:37 <Sparks> excellent
23:08:48 <Sparks> #action Sparks Work on magazine article work about the guides and docs.fp.o
23:09:11 <Sparks> #info Sparks is still working with Marketing on this.
23:09:14 <Sparks> #undo
23:09:14 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x2ad5787cd290>
23:09:28 <Sparks> #info Sparks is still working with Marketing on a magazine article about Docs Project
23:09:42 <Sparks> #action quaid to discuss on the list about Beacon and web-based XML editors for Docs use.
23:09:54 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else that is old?
23:10:08 * jjmcd is old
23:10:21 * quaid is feeling old
23:10:21 <Sparks> #info jjmcd is old
23:10:25 <Sparks> #undo
23:10:25 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x1dad4450>
23:10:34 <Sparks> quaid: Didn't know you were here tonight
23:10:42 <quaid> just blew in
23:10:47 <quaid> and my task is still relevant?
23:11:04 <Sparks> quaid: I think it is based on our CMS discussion
23:11:05 <quaid> good thing, thanks, my gnote "to do" vaporized, so I've been recreating it from nagging
23:11:54 <Sparks> quaid: consider yourself nagged
23:12:30 <Sparks> Okay, let's move on.
23:12:39 <Sparks> #topic Do we still need a CMS?
23:12:56 <Sparks> We said that we would table this topic until tonight.
23:13:14 <Sparks> Although I'm not sure we are ready to move on with this, yet.
23:14:02 <Sparks> It is of my opinion that our current solution is working well.
23:14:09 <Sparks> Anyone else have an opinion?
23:14:34 <bethlynn> what are we proposing Sparks?
23:15:00 <bethlynn> less wiki and more CMS (like drupal? sugarCRM?)
23:15:09 <Sparks> bethlynn: Basically do we need a different solution other than what we have now for docs.fp.o
23:15:16 <Sparks> not affecting the wiki
23:15:25 <Sparks> Just how we are going to put out our final product.
23:15:30 * rbergeron hugs sparks about the magazine article
23:15:41 <bethlynn> ok. what tech are we working with now?
23:15:46 <Sparks> Do we need Drupal or something else or is Publican sufficient?
23:15:51 <bethlynn> just plain apache+html?
23:16:09 <Sparks> bethlynn: It's a frontend of Publican
23:16:27 <rudi> Well, more like it's an automated output of Publican
23:16:30 <Sparks> yes
23:16:43 <bethlynn> ok. is it revertable?
23:16:59 <Sparks> how do you mean?
23:17:02 <rudi> Sorry, what do you mean by "revertable"?
23:17:17 <bethlynn> like in a wiki page
23:17:28 <bethlynn> you want to go back one revision or so
23:17:37 <bethlynn> so you revert
23:17:40 <rudi> Not as such, no
23:17:50 <bethlynn> I think that would be useful
23:17:53 <jjmcd> We were also hoping that some CMS would help with a workflow
23:17:54 <Sparks> rudi: well it is in git...
23:18:12 <rudi> Well, yes, you can revert in git
23:18:35 <bethlynn> for example, how many of your fp.o pages need to be refreshed every time you start working on a new release
23:19:03 <jjmcd> If I recall, one of the selling points of zikula was workflow, but I'm not sure we really know what that means or whether it would help
23:19:06 <rudi_> But if I'm understanding bethlynn correctly, she means rolling back a particular (page? book?) to an earlier version?
23:19:13 <Sparks> bethlynn: It's less important to revert the webpage as all your work on the backend is revertable and change management controlled
23:19:26 <bethlynn> and then updated to do a "fedora release+1 alpha coming soon"
23:19:37 <rudi_> Which we can't do; but I don't think that's useful or beneficial in formal documentation
23:19:54 <bethlynn> ok
23:19:56 <rudi_> Changes need to be made or undone in the /source code/
23:20:05 <bethlynn> Drupal does have its own change management too
23:20:11 * crantila suggests that, from an end-user perspective, the publican model currently used is fine
23:20:29 <bethlynn> but I think you will lose some automation
23:20:45 <Sparks> I think the biggest advantage of using a CMS like Drupal is the tools we can utilize for editing our documents
23:20:57 <bethlynn> I'm not in favor of drupal vs status quo, I'm just discussing the sides so we can move on
23:20:59 <crantila> so it's really about us, and whether we want to keep git and editor separately?
23:21:09 <Sparks> kinda sorta
23:21:23 <jjmcd> bethlynn, we had actually chosen zikula as the CMS for docs before the otther teams picked it up, but it took so long I think we forgot why we wanted it
23:21:28 <Sparks> The biggest advantage of a CMS is a lower hurdle for new contributors
23:21:47 <jjmcd> And since then, rudi has done so much with Publican it isn't clear how much of a help it would be
23:22:07 <crantila> for Unix(TM) flexiblity, maybe we should keep them separate
23:22:08 <jjmcd> Well, not only new contributors but formalizing the workflow so we don't forget one release to the next
23:22:17 * bethlynn =sparks+1 It would mean less learning curve and a release early & offen
23:22:24 <bethlynn> often that is
23:22:34 <Sparks> There is a possibility of utilizing Beacon (an online text editor) to do text editing
23:22:37 <Sparks> and still use Publican
23:22:49 <bethlynn> do you want release early&often or do you want to screen more carefully?
23:22:54 <rudi_> bethlynn -- it won't affect our release frequency, because that's tied to localization
23:23:02 <crantila> it would be easy to write a few wiki pages that show the git and publican commands currently needed, and to write down the workflow
23:23:35 <jjmcd> And to an extent, we've started on that
23:23:36 <rudi_> The "only" advantage here is lowering the DocBook-in-a-text-editor hurdle
23:23:42 <jjmcd> at least at the high level
23:24:00 <rudi_> And for that we "only" need a web app like Beacon, not a full-fledged CMS
23:24:23 <Sparks> Okay, we are running short on time...
23:24:43 <Sparks> Let's take this discussion to the list for greater visibility
23:24:47 <crantila> looks like we're leaning towards no CMS but something else
23:25:02 <Sparks> #action Sparks to bring discussion of a CMS to the Docs list.
23:25:14 <Sparks> #topic Publican
23:25:43 <Sparks> rudi_: Have you figured out the koji instance for Publican?
23:26:03 <GadgetWisdomGuru> I seem to have forgotten the meeting was in here. I beg pardon.
23:26:25 <rudi_> Sparks -- no, I've put that to one side while I get step 1 on the masterplan in place -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Automating_publishing
23:26:48 <Sparks> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Automating_publishing
23:26:56 <Sparks> Okay, and you are on the EPEL packages
23:26:57 <rudi_> My current best guess is we'll try to use dist-5E-epel-infra
23:27:17 <rudi_> We might not need to upset anyone's apple cart if we do that :)
23:27:28 <Sparks> what about EPEL 6?
23:28:06 <rudi_> We would still need to see whether Publican 2 makes it into RHEL6
23:28:16 <Sparks> Okay
23:28:20 <Sparks> Anything else?
23:28:22 <rudi_> Publican 1.6 cetainly will
23:28:38 <Sparks> Cool
23:28:39 <rudi_> but if it does, then that will mean no Publican 2 for RHEL6 or EPEL6...
23:28:58 <Sparks> One would think that 2.0 would be what should go in
23:29:00 <rudi_> So obviously we hope that the gate hasn't come down on Publican 2
23:29:26 <rudi_> Well, we don't want to be maintaining a 1.6.x branch for the next 7 years ;)
23:29:27 <Sparks> Ok
23:29:30 <Sparks> Yes
23:29:49 * Sparks dislikes RH's policy on that but understands
23:30:13 <Sparks> Okay, moving on
23:30:14 <rudi_> .
23:30:20 * Sparks waits
23:31:17 <rudi_> just quickly in conclusion -- at worst, where we build will really come down to a policy decision, not a technical one, but it's not something we need to worry about until we've actually got Publican 2 in the dist-5E-epel-infra repo
23:31:36 <bethlynn> who has the authority to decide what packages get included in RHEL6?
23:31:48 <rudi_> bethlynn -- Red Hat product management :)
23:31:49 <bethlynn> can we file a ticket?
23:32:13 <Sparks> can we send cookies?
23:32:33 <rudi_> A partner or customer could file a ticket
23:32:54 * Sparks is a customer
23:32:58 <rudi_> But we should wait to see what the decision is first
23:33:01 <crantila> so somebody should buy RHEL 6
23:33:22 <rudi_> Sparks -- heh; well, that's one avenue then :)
23:33:35 <Sparks> It might be weird trying to convince them I need Publican 2 for my servers, though
23:33:59 <rudi_> Yeah, that's what GSS will ask you :)
23:34:06 <Sparks> Yeah
23:34:15 <Sparks> So you need your 80 servers to have Publican 2 on them?
23:34:24 <Sparks> Yes, yes I do
23:34:31 <jjmcd> You like to document stuff
23:34:32 <Sparks> Okay, anything else?
23:34:40 <Sparks> jjmcd: Often and a lot
23:34:43 <rudi_> No -- that's it from me
23:34:53 <Sparks> ok
23:34:59 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
23:35:02 <Sparks> jjmcd: You are up, sir
23:35:06 <jjmcd> OK
23:35:22 <jjmcd> I posted my nefarious plan in a reply to stickster on the list
23:35:35 <GadgetWisdomGuru> Nefarious?
23:35:47 <jjmcd> was executing the emails when the fit hit the shan in Calhoun county
23:35:52 <GadgetWisdomGuru> Is Fedora trying to take over the world?
23:36:02 <jjmcd> so, I'm behind where I wanted to be but ahead of schedule
23:36:04 <rudi_> GadgetWisdomGuru: Heck yeah! :)
23:36:06 <Sparks> GadgetWisdomGuru: yes
23:36:07 <crantila> GadgetWisdomGuru: that's Ubuntu
23:36:14 <rudi_> crantila: Shh!
23:36:16 <GadgetWisdomGuru> I just love those answers.
23:36:30 <jjmcd> Did you see the C++ taking over the world tweet from quaid, wildeboer, someone
23:36:54 <jjmcd> Anyway
23:37:16 <jjmcd> Will get emails to previous beat writers who haven't re-upped tromorrow
23:37:34 <jjmcd> Then I will get the promised strawman to rbergeron (sorry the oil got in the way)
23:37:53 <jjmcd> And in about a week, I'll make a plea on dev and blog for new writers
23:37:56 <jjmcd> <eof>
23:38:12 <Sparks> Okay.  Anyone have any questions?
23:38:20 <quaid> jjmcd: I do not think that C++ dent was from me <eoOT>
23:38:37 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to send emails to all previous beat writers who haven't signed up for their old beats
23:38:42 <jjmcd> Might have been from Jan, or maybe even spot, but I think Jan
23:38:58 <jjmcd> Sparks about half done, even already replies froma few
23:40:07 <Sparks> cool
23:40:12 <Sparks> Okay, moving on
23:40:24 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
23:40:30 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_guide_goals_for_F14
23:40:52 <Sparks> Anyone have anything they want to discuss regarding their guides?
23:40:59 <Sparks> Anyone have any questions regarding guides?
23:41:06 <crantila> of course!
23:41:20 <Sparks> I see the Musician's Guide is rocking along! <pun intended>
23:41:25 <crantila> new files added daily: https://fedorahosted.org/musicians-guide/
23:41:36 <crantila> here's the schedule I sent to the list earlier: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Schedule
23:41:36 <GadgetWisdomGuru> I enjoyed reading the RHEL6 storage administration guide.
23:41:43 <GadgetWisdomGuru> I look forward to seeing the Fedora version.
23:41:45 <jjmcd> That is way cool.  We need more of those
23:41:51 <crantila> and the existing drafts on the wiki: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Drafts
23:42:13 <Sparks> While I'm thinking about it... who has the Virtualization Guide?
23:42:27 <crantila> thank you to the Docs members who have already lent a hand with testing!
23:42:35 <rudi_> Sparks -- that's tsagadai
23:42:42 <rudi_> Not here today
23:43:07 <crantila> out of curiousity... the Storage Admin and Power Management guides will be in F14?
23:43:39 * Sparks needs to look to see if tsagadai included the SELinux on the host for setting up VMs.
23:44:12 <rudi_> crantila -- yes -- both of them
23:44:38 <rudi_> We're a little ways behind getting them upstream because of course RHEL6 has the priority right now :)
23:47:09 <Sparks> Anyone else?
23:47:39 <Sparks> Oh, I'd like to remind everyone of the procedures for publishing DRAFT documentation on docs.fp.o
23:47:40 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Publishing_draft_documentation
23:47:55 <Gearoid> I have updated the Accessibility Guide goals on that wiki page
23:48:03 <Sparks> Gearoid: Awesome
23:48:20 <Sparks> The earlier you get your guides published in draft the sooner you can get feedback
23:48:35 <Sparks> #action Sparks to blog about draft documentation on docs.fp.o in hopes of getting feedback
23:48:40 <Sparks> Okay, moving along
23:48:42 * crantila bookmarks the page
23:48:43 <Gearoid> jjmcd sorted a bug out with it yesterday, there was some stuff in the f12 doc that got missed in the f13 one
23:49:15 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
23:49:21 <Sparks> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84
23:49:35 <Sparks> I'd like to get agreement on two items, tonight
23:50:11 <Sparks> First: I'd like to CC the Docs list on all new BZ tickets so everyone knows what's going on and maybe people will be more aware.
23:50:14 <Sparks> thoughts?
23:51:29 <rudi_> Seems reasonable to me, although there will be times when we will spam the list like crazy
23:51:44 <jjmcd> Do we tend to get waves?
23:51:46 <Sparks> rudi_: Yeah.  I was thinking there was a way to only show NEW tickets
23:52:11 <rudi_> I meant, even with new tickets, when writers are filing tickets against themselves
23:52:27 <rudi_> (usually in the wake of a downstream technical review or something)
23:52:49 <rudi_> Take a look at the multitudes of self-filed tickets against the DG, IG, and VG
23:53:04 <rudi_> But even so, I think it's a good idea
23:53:17 <rudi_> anyone who doesn't want the BZ spam can just set up a filter :P
23:53:17 * Sparks wonders if there is a better way to keep self-filed tickets
23:53:42 <rudi_> I think BZ is the right place for those tickets
23:53:51 <crantila> a third docs list?
23:53:52 <rudi_> Often they're cloned from a bug against a downstream product
23:53:54 <Sparks> Anyone have any objection to putting the BZ tickets on the Docs list?
23:54:03 <Sparks> rudi_: Agreed
23:54:17 <crantila> I'm not a huge fan of the idea, to be honest
23:54:40 <crantila> not like my input should be considered as top-priority, but...
23:54:41 <Sparks> crantila: What if I can just put NEW tickets on the list?
23:54:58 <crantila> maybe I over-estimate the number of NEW tickets?
23:55:04 <bethlynn> Sparks: the marketing project has been doing so for the past few weeks and the volume has been ok... I suspect that there are more docs than marketing contributors though (sorry robyn. please correct me if I'm wrong)
23:55:08 <rudi_> Yeah, I think it can only be NEW tickets if we do this at all
23:55:16 <Sparks> crantila: There aren't a lot....
23:55:31 <Sparks> crantila: I see them all in my INBOX...  maybe five a week?
23:55:42 <crantila> let's try it, and in a few weeks if it's a problem, change it back
23:55:47 <Sparks> If it becomes a problem we can turn it off
23:55:52 <Sparks> crantila: yeah
23:55:59 * Sparks +1
23:56:03 <rudi_> +1 Sparks, crantila
23:56:10 <crantila> or like you say, we can create a filter
23:56:32 <Sparks> Anyone else care to vote?
23:57:13 <Gearoid> +1
23:57:22 <Sparks> #agreed All NEW Docs BZ tickets to be sent to the Docs List
23:57:23 <jjmcd> abstain
23:57:35 <GadgetWisdomGuru> I'll vote yay
23:57:49 <Sparks> #action Sparks to put all new BZ tickets on the Docs List
23:57:58 <Sparks> Second thing
23:58:00 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Handling_Docs_Project_bugs
23:58:08 <Sparks> Is this agreeable to everyone?
23:58:16 <bethlynn> 2 minute warning
23:58:50 <rudi_> Sparks +1
23:59:18 <jjmcd> I like "should" rather than "shall" because there are times when a week is an instant
23:59:32 <Sparks> yes
23:59:38 <Sparks> and it's a wiki...  be bold, ya know?
23:59:46 <jjmcd> ;-)
00:00:33 <Sparks> Okay...  Then we'll keep that as a "policy" too
00:00:58 <Sparks> #agreed The Handling Docs Project Bugs policy is good and should be followed.
00:01:09 <Sparks> #topic Open floor discussion
00:01:12 <Sparks> Anyone have anything?
00:01:35 <jjmcd> ik hep dorst
00:01:42 <bethlynn> -1 minute
00:01:49 <GadgetWisdomGuru> I signed up for a beat. Please help me not mess up?
00:01:58 <jjmcd> Thanks GadgetWisdomGuru
00:02:17 <jjmcd> oh yeah
00:02:25 <jjmcd> For those who werent on the list
00:02:35 <jjmcd> and might not have gottem my rbergeron reference
00:02:53 <jjmcd> distrowatch had some old text about Fedora.  I'm going to do a strawman
00:03:07 <Sparks> GadgetWisdomGuru: There are lots of folks around to help...  just ask if you have a question
00:03:15 <jjmcd> to replace it, rbergeron is going to have marketing hack it, and jsmith is going to pass it along to distrowatch
00:03:25 * Sparks notes he will start his three-week vacation this Saturday and will not be around all that much
00:03:53 * rbergeron nods, woooot
00:03:59 <Sparks> I have left jjmcd with the keys to the kingdom and have asked jsmith-away to point my paycheck at jjmcd in my absence
00:04:20 <rbergeron> jjmcd: I'll actually be sort-of out (as in, too addicted to my email to not read on vacation, but...)
00:04:30 <Sparks> I will try to communicate if/when I get access
00:04:40 <jjmcd> I know whatcha mean
00:04:46 <rbergeron> from Sunday - Following tuesday (i think the 1st through 11th or so of august) - just be sure to copy the mktg list on it
00:04:51 <jjmcd> but I do have your supersecret comms channel
00:04:57 <rbergeron> this is tr00
00:05:30 * Sparks wants a supersecret comms channel
00:05:47 <Sparks> but it would have to be secret.. and I've just told everyone about it so...
00:05:52 <jjmcd> Hey, I got a new sound card just for digital
00:05:52 <Sparks> Okay, anyone have anything else?
00:06:25 <Sparks> Okay... thanks everyone for coming out!
00:06:28 <Sparks> #endmeeting