00:00:59 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
00:00:59 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 11 00:00:59 2010 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:00:59 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
00:00:59 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
00:00:59 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
00:00:59 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
00:01:27 * Gearoid is here
00:01:31 * jjmcd 
00:01:31 * jhradilek is here.
00:01:41 * bcotton is here-ish
00:01:59 * rudi is here
00:02:28 * nb 
00:03:38 * Sparks is here
00:03:55 <Sparks> #chair jjmcd rudi bcotton Gearoid nb jhradilek
00:03:55 <zodbot> Current chairs: Gearoid Sparks bcotton jhradilek jjmcd nb rudi
00:05:19 <Gearoid> wow, lots of chairs!
00:05:26 <Sparks> and no tables
00:05:28 <Sparks> Hmmm
00:05:33 <Sparks> Okay, lets get started
00:05:44 <Gearoid> #table Sparks
00:05:55 <jhradilek> Heh.
00:05:58 <Sparks> wow
00:06:11 <Sparks> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
00:06:20 <jhradilek> I would fall of my chair if that actually worked.
00:06:32 <Sparks> #action Sparks to add creating and publishing links to the Docs wiki page
00:06:40 <Sparks> Sparks to bring to the Docs list the subject of a replacement for him for Docs Project lead. **Completed**
00:06:48 <Sparks> nb to get the Bugzilla owners.list sync script fixed to use git.
00:07:08 <nb> Sparks, tis done
00:07:21 <nb> /git/docs/owners.git
00:07:21 <Sparks> awesome
00:07:35 <Sparks> rudi to add "get a bugzilla component" to the "Creating a new Guide" page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Creating_a_new_guide
00:07:50 <rudi> Not done -- I need to talk to you about that after the meeting
00:07:58 <rudi> (and organise a new BZ component as well)
00:08:16 <Sparks> #action rudi to add "get a bugzilla component" to the "Creating a new Guide" page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Creating_a_new_guide
00:08:19 <Sparks> rudi: No problem
00:09:05 <Sparks> Okay, that's all the old business... moving on
00:09:15 <Sparks> #topic Docs Project leader elections
00:09:23 <Sparks> #info Voting to take place on 17 November.
00:09:30 <Sparks> Just a little history here
00:10:19 <Sparks> When I took this position a couple of years ago I told everyone that I'd offer up my seat every November just after the release to see if there was anyone else that wanted to have the job
00:10:57 <Sparks> It is usually a good thing to get new people in with new ideas.
00:12:07 <Sparks> I've tried to run the Project by letting other people's ideas be used simply because I don't, and won't ever, have all the answers nor will all the answers I have be correct.
00:12:39 <Sparks> So with that being said, is there anyone that would like to nominate someone or would like to volunteer for this position?
00:12:51 <bcotton> point of clarification
00:13:10 <Sparks> bcotton: Go
00:13:29 <bcotton> sparks: are you willing to continue service as docs lead, or do you prefer to abdicate?
00:14:10 <Sparks> I am willing to continue
00:14:20 <nb> jhradilek, lol when they said #table i should have made the bot say that it added him as a table
00:14:27 * jjmcd 
00:14:57 <Sparks> jjmcd: You have something to say?
00:15:05 <jjmcd> Some additional history
00:15:37 <jjmcd> Before Sparks took this on, these meetings were held erratically, went on forever, and rarely accomplished anything
00:15:58 <jjmcd> The only doc we routinely got out was the release notes, and they were a mad scramble requiring many all nighters
00:16:13 <jjmcd> The whole nature of the team has changed
00:16:32 <jjmcd> And I don't think its a bad change either ... but
00:16:49 <jjmcd> like Eric says, new people mean new ideas and more improvement
00:17:12 <jjmcd> And just because you don't feel like you're an old timer doesn't mean you aren't qualified
00:17:24 <jjmcd> New blood is a good thing
00:17:29 <jjmcd> </rant>
00:18:09 <Sparks> jjmcd: Thanks for those kind words...
00:18:58 <jjmcd> Personally, I would like to see Zach and/or Ben try it
00:19:10 <Sparks> So...  anyone want to volunteer or else next week's vote is going to be crazy boring
00:19:17 <jjmcd> But Zach isn't here to defend himself
00:19:43 <jhradilek> I may sound stupid, but where is the vote going to take place?
00:19:46 <Sparks> Yeah, I think Zach is on an odd schedule?  He mentioned something about voting at 2AM or something
00:20:12 <nb> Sparks, do we want to use the voting system/
00:20:13 <nb> ?
00:20:19 <Sparks> jhradilek: Well...  If we actually do have folks to vote on I'll ask for a ballot system be setup for this election like we do for everything else.
00:20:35 <Sparks> nb: Yeah, that was my thought... that way you don't have to be present to vote.
00:21:11 <jjmcd> nb, typically we have trouble drawing suckers ... errr ... candidates
00:21:24 <Sparks> heh
00:23:31 <Sparks> Okay then.
00:23:42 <Sparks> I'm not sure if that's a vote of confidence or a vote of "not me"
00:23:42 <Sparks> :)
00:23:54 <bcotton> sparks: the former, for sure
00:24:23 <Sparks> heh
00:24:50 <Sparks> Okay.  I'll take this to the list just to make sure there isn't someone that didn't attend tonight's meeting that might want to run.
00:25:20 <Sparks> #action Sparks to bring nominations up to the Docs list to make sure everyone has a chance to volunteer.
00:25:50 <Sparks> Okay... moving on, then.
00:26:06 <Sparks> #topic Publishing Documentation to the desktop
00:26:27 <jjmcd> Comment on this
00:26:31 <Sparks> Okay
00:26:40 <Sparks> jjmcd: Perhaps we should talk about what we are talking about
00:26:59 <jjmcd> The documents on docs.fp.o have embedded Javascript.  We will draw plenty of bugs if that isn't fixed first
00:28:17 <jjmcd> I did file a bug, which needs a response right now, but I don't see that being fixed any time soon
00:28:27 <jjmcd> needs a response from me that is
00:28:40 <rudi> jjmcd -- what's the problem exactly?
00:28:55 <rudi> The site is designed to fall back gracefully if there's no JS
00:29:08 <jjmcd> Many people are violently opposed to enabling javascript
00:29:24 * Sparks was thought this topic was something different
00:29:24 <rudi> Yeah, and the site falls back gracefully for them
00:29:30 <jjmcd> Not only does Publican include js in published docs, but there is no alternative
00:29:44 <jjmcd> Not the site, the docs
00:29:48 <jjmcd> seems new in 2.3
00:29:59 <rudi> No -- was introduced in 2.0 IIRC
00:30:09 <rudi> And it only affects the navigation iframe
00:30:16 <jjmcd> No it doesn't
00:30:29 <rudi> ?
00:30:32 <jjmcd> If I recall (and I could be wrong) in 2.0 it was only navigation
00:30:43 <jjmcd> But there is JS embedded in every document
00:30:51 <rudi> Yes
00:31:01 <rudi> There has been since 2.0
00:31:15 <rudi> and then (and now) it only affects the iframe embedded in the doc
00:31:28 <rudi> If you have JS turned off, it does not affect the presentation of the doc at all
00:31:36 <rudi> Only the presententation of the iframe
00:32:12 <Sparks> jjmcd: Okay, are we still talking about providing links to the docs from the desktop?
00:32:12 <jjmcd> I think that is correct.  So a null <noscript> paragraph would correct it
00:32:27 <jjmcd> Sparks, yes. and i think we know how to do that
00:32:44 * jhradilek just tried to access docs.fedoraproject.org with Elinks, and it offered me a static Table of Contents as an alternative.
00:32:45 <jjmcd> it;s just that if you don't have js turned on it gets ugly
00:33:07 <Sparks> Okay
00:33:15 <jjmcd> I got a left panel full of error messages trying to access individual dox
00:33:33 <Sparks> Okay
00:33:41 <rudi> jjmcd -- access them where?
00:33:59 <jjmcd> firefox I think
00:34:11 <rudi> but where were the docs?
00:34:17 <jjmcd> could have been seamonkey or galon when i tried it
00:34:30 <rudi> on d.fp.o?
00:34:39 <jjmcd> Seems like it was the rn's.  Can't recall why i tripped on it tho
00:34:57 <jjmcd> I think so, but to tell the truth,I can't remember why I did it
00:34:59 <rudi> You will get a left panel full of error messanges when the browser can't find the relevant toc.html
00:35:10 <rudi> But that's got nothing to do with JS
00:35:19 <rudi> To ilustrate:
00:35:28 <jhradilek> Works fine with Firefox to me... I mean, it isn't exactly the pretiest page I have ever seen, but it serves its purpose.
00:35:33 <jjmcd> Haven't worked on the desktop all in a few weeks and this was in the dash to get the RNs packaged
00:35:33 <rudi> Build any doc locally with the --embedtoc option
00:36:02 <rudi> Now look at the doc; it will show you the panel full of errors, whether you have JS turned on or now
00:36:04 <rudi> *not
00:36:15 <rudi> ....because there's no ToC to embed...
00:37:05 <Sparks> So the plan was to somehow provide links to the documents from the desktop so people could easily find documentation.
00:37:46 <Sparks> Providing links to docs.fp.o means that we wouldn't have to package and ship all the different languages and versions of the guides
00:38:04 <jjmcd> Yeah, and I remember having that working
00:38:11 <Sparks> But the problem was generating the links and updating the links whenever something changed on the website.
00:38:18 <jjmcd> So perhaps I was looking at something separate from docs.fp.o
00:38:45 <rudi> jjmcd -- yeah, if it wasn't on d.fp.o or d.rh.c you would see that panel o' error
00:39:56 <Sparks> jjmcd: did we ever come up with a plan for generating the links?
00:40:19 <rudi> Note also this bug -- mapped to local storage
00:40:23 <Sparks> I think we were hoping this could be added to Publican some how.
00:40:24 <rudi> oopes :)
00:40:31 <rudi> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=647352
00:40:33 <jjmcd> Sparks, not really.  For now, simply rebuilding the RPM updates the links, but if we could access the db online we wouldn't need that
00:40:46 <Sparks> Yes
00:41:12 <Sparks> and perhaps we could have a copy of the db put in the public_html/ directory on the server to facilitate this.
00:41:15 <rudi> jjmcd -- Publican 2.3 can do an XML dump of the site contents
00:41:23 <rudi> Sparks ^^^
00:41:25 <jjmcd> online?
00:41:28 <rudi> Yeah
00:41:35 <rudi> Specifically for use cases like this
00:42:06 <Sparks> I have a question, though.
00:42:10 <rudi> So we just need to figure out how to parse that
00:42:48 <Sparks> By forcing people to get this information off the Internet we are failing those that don't/won't have access to the Internet to have local documents.
00:43:07 <Sparks> rudi: Can we sit down after the meeting and talk about this more?
00:43:27 <rudi> Sparks: sure. I still think the Holy Grail is to be able to build, package, and ship the docs
00:43:46 <rudi> And I think the barrier to that will descrease after we automate the publishing-to-the-web process
00:43:58 <Sparks> Yeah...
00:43:59 <rudi> *decrease
00:44:14 <Sparks> Okay, let's talk about this more after the meeting and report back to the list.
00:44:43 <Sparks> #action Sparks, rudi, and jjmcd (and anyone else that would like to attend) to discuss building docs for the desktop
00:44:49 <Sparks> Okay, let's move on as time is getting short.
00:45:03 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
00:45:08 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Release_Notes_schedule
00:45:19 <Sparks> jjmcd: How are things going with the RNs?
00:45:22 <jjmcd> RPM with translations went out, still need to publish translations
00:45:46 <jjmcd> That's it.  As soon as the new translations are published we're mostly done this cycle
00:45:53 <Sparks> Cool
00:45:57 <jjmcd> excepting any bugs of course
00:46:11 <Sparks> Awesome job to you and everyone that worked on the RNs this cycle.
00:46:18 <jjmcd> I had lotsa help
00:46:44 <Sparks> the key to success
00:46:56 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
00:47:29 <Sparks> Um...
00:47:37 <Sparks> So is everyone ready for F15?
00:47:38 <Sparks> :)
00:47:42 * jjmcd 
00:47:48 <Sparks> go ahead
00:48:07 <jjmcd> Does anyone remember the ImageMagick stuff to fix pics for Publican?
00:48:22 <jjmcd> Been dragging my feet so I don't have to reinvent it
00:48:28 <rudi> Hang on ;)
00:49:00 <jjmcd> I thought it was on the wiki but I searched and found nada
00:49:08 <rudi> for i in *.png; do `convert $i PNG32:$i`; done
00:49:18 <jjmcd> cool, thanks
00:49:27 <rudi> FOP 1.0 is coming soon; maybe they've fixed it ;)
00:49:40 <jjmcd> Ive added some images to ARG
00:49:48 <jjmcd> want to do that before publishing
00:49:52 <Sparks> perhaps that should be put on the wiki?
00:50:09 <rudi> Probably the PUG actually
00:50:28 <Sparks> PUG?
00:50:31 <Sparks> Oh
00:50:37 <Sparks> Publican Users Guide
00:50:45 * jhradilek is taking notes, because he did not know about that trick.
00:51:01 <Sparks> jhradilek: See what happens when you hang around with smart people?
00:51:10 * Sparks learns things from rudi and jjmcd every day
00:51:14 <rudi> I'll open a bug
00:51:39 <rudi> jhradilek -- it's to work around a bug in FOP that flips colour channels in 24-bit PNGs
00:51:43 <jjmcd> jhradilek, follow climagic on identi.ca - lots of way cool stuff
00:52:27 <rudi> jhradilek -- if you see images in PDF docs that have funky colours, you know you've hit it :)
00:52:58 <Sparks> Okay, I have a goal for F15...  to resurrect the Documentation Guide
00:53:04 <jhradilek> rudi, jjmcd: Cheers!
00:53:39 <Sparks> Okay, anything else?
00:53:46 <rudi> Ah -- any resurrection attempts need -- http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20040405/badger.shtml
00:53:52 * Sparks notes we are running short on time.
00:54:20 <jhradilek> rudi: What the...
00:54:33 <Sparks> don't ask
00:54:48 <Sparks> :)
00:54:53 <jhradilek> :-)
00:54:57 <Sparks> #topic Open floor discussion
00:55:03 <Sparks> Okay, anyone have anything?
00:55:16 * bcotton 
00:55:27 <Sparks> bcotton: Go ahead
00:56:35 <bcotton> I just want to thank bethlynn ke4qqq and quaid for their work setting up and running the Fedora BoF at LISA last night.  we had many tens of people show up for discussion and playing with live CDs
00:57:01 <bcotton> eof
00:57:04 <Sparks> Awesome.
00:57:07 <Sparks> I have something...  I'd like to thank everyone who authored text, changed a bit, translated a word, edited and QA'd documentation, fixed scripts, worked on the tools we use, and did anything else to get all of our documentation ready for F14.  We did a great job this release.
00:57:18 <rudi> .
00:57:23 <Sparks> rudi: go
00:57:40 <rudi> and thank you Sparks for your direction and leadership :)
00:57:55 <rudi> Sorry too that we RHatters didn't really pull our weight on F14
00:58:04 <rudi> I hope today you can maybe understand a little why :)
00:58:35 <Sparks> rudi: Oh I knew what was happening and after today's release I can only imagine what was happening.
00:58:45 <jjmcd> Seems like we had a ton of new folks who chipped in, many in timezones that prevent them being here
00:58:54 <Sparks> rudi: Congrats on a successful release of RHEL 6...
00:59:00 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yes
00:59:16 <jjmcd> Great to see that - RHEL6 as well as the new folk
00:59:17 <Sparks> rudi: And you RHatters always pull your weight and then some.
00:59:18 <rudi> Thanks; we're pretty excited right now :)
01:00:31 * Sparks can hardly wait to see what 6 looks like on one of my servers!
01:00:46 <Sparks> Okay...  unless someone has something else... we'll be closing.
01:01:50 <Sparks> Thanks everyone for coming!
01:01:51 <Sparks> #endmeeting