23:00:10 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
23:00:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 13 23:00:10 2011 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:00:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
23:00:13 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
23:00:13 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
23:00:17 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
23:00:20 * Sparks 
23:00:30 * jjmcd 
23:00:40 <Sparks> jjmcd: Oh!  You came to run the meeting?
23:00:56 <jjmcd> naw, perfectly happy letting you do it
23:01:01 <rbergeron> lol
23:01:37 <Sparks> I bet you are
23:02:43 <jjmcd> so, where are the other suspects ... sgordon, nb, zoglesby, fnadge, jhradlek
23:02:50 <sgordon> sorry
23:02:52 <sgordon> got distracted
23:02:55 * sgordon 
23:03:01 <jjmcd> BTW, rudi won't make it
23:03:02 * fnadge is kind of here
23:03:04 <sgordon> having one of those weeks
23:03:16 * mprpic is present
23:03:36 <Sparks> jjmcd: It would appear that the agenda hasn't been updated for a while
23:03:46 <jjmcd> yeah
23:04:10 <jjmcd> I almost did yesterday, but I didn't know how much you wanted to focus on olf
23:04:48 <Sparks> Well...  it's getting late and we should probably really talk about OLF
23:04:52 * ke4qqq appears
23:04:57 <jjmcd> woo hoo
23:05:01 <pkovar> I'm here
23:05:02 <Sparks> jjmcd: Care to update the agenda while I get myself straight?
23:05:06 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Excellent!
23:05:34 <jjmcd> working ...
23:05:54 <eslobodo> i'm here
23:08:05 <jjmcd> WOW the gang's all here
23:08:12 * bcotton is here too
23:08:14 <jjmcd> got action items updated, continuing on rest
23:08:23 * jhradilek is here as well, just for the record.
23:08:55 <jjmcd> OK, now its there - missed the stupid equation
23:09:06 <bcotton> my baby is here as well, but she doesn't want to type right now
23:09:42 <Sparks> jjmcd: I don't see the delta
23:09:52 <Sparks> bcotton: Soon enough!  :)
23:09:58 <jjmcd> now that's weird ... I can go back and edit it more
23:10:06 <Sparks> Okay, let's get started with some OLF talk
23:10:11 <jjmcd> gomix - astrophhysicst
23:10:31 <Sparks> #topic FAD @ OLF
23:10:40 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD_@_OLF_2011
23:11:26 <Sparks> #info jsmith has an Asterisk server setup and ready for the FAD
23:11:46 <Sparks> So here's what we know...
23:12:27 <Sparks> We can get a conference room at Ohio Linux Fest (OLF) and use it to develop guides for F16 all Sunday.
23:12:33 <Sparks> Anything that needs an extra lift.
23:12:49 <rbergeron> wahoo
23:13:11 <Sparks> This is nearly perfect timing for putting the final touches on these guides and getting the POT files to the translators.
23:13:48 <Sparks> We'll also be able to have a VoIP connection for anyone who wants to participate that can't be there.
23:14:24 <Sparks> The current goals on the page are:
23:14:33 * jjmcd will be 1 few miles up the road, sadly
23:14:35 <Sparks> Beta Release Notes at 100%.
23:14:47 <Sparks> User Guide updated for GNOME 3.x, KDE x, and default programs identified and discussed.
23:14:57 <Sparks> Smoothing out the translation process and removing barriers. What do Docs people need to be successful? Translators?
23:15:16 <Sparks> Work on other guides: Security, Cloud, any and all others
23:15:39 <rbergeron> Which day of OLF, or are you doing it an extra day early / late?
23:15:44 <Sparks> If you are going to be in attendance please put your name on the list.  If you need funding let me know and I'll see what I can do.
23:16:01 <Sparks> #info Plan on having the FAD on Sunday
23:16:04 <jjmcd> Did we give up on a new specialized guide?
23:16:07 <Sparks> rbergeron: Thanks for the reminder
23:16:15 <Sparks> jjmcd: Nope
23:16:34 <Sparks> jjmcd: Just need someone to document that on the wiki page and we'll put on the list.
23:16:51 <jjmcd> I suppose we can wait until we get a victim then add it to the goals
23:16:58 <Sparks> Yep
23:17:07 <Sparks> Or we can use that time to start brain storming
23:17:25 <Sparks> I'd hate to waste the momentum...
23:17:25 <perspectival> which guide?
23:17:45 * jjmcd reached out to robotics sig - no response yet, and gomix did contact his astro buddy
23:18:18 <jjmcd> perspectival, we are looking for some expert to work with writers to produce a new guide like the ARG or Musician's guide
23:18:28 <rbergeron> sparks: yeah, having a budget at the bottom of the page can help out, and i'm sure we can get folks there. There is money for fads, so long as we don't go crazy. :)
23:19:04 <perspectival> jjmcd: ah, ok, thanks
23:19:11 <Sparks> rbergeron: Yeah, I guess I need to do some research on what we might need a budget for besides getting people there and housing them.
23:19:15 <rbergeron> sparks: the fad template has some of that stuff built into it
23:19:29 * Sparks wonders if he removed that
23:19:37 <jjmcd> I think robotics could be a slam dunk if they willwork with us
23:19:39 <rbergeron> sparks: that's probably about it, aside from maybe having a group dinner or maybe snacks/pizza day of.
23:19:53 <Sparks> rbergeron: Pizza!  Thank you!
23:20:09 <rbergeron> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:FAD
23:20:09 <Sparks> It would be nice to have some swag around for our contributors that do make it
23:20:14 <jjmcd> Sparks, gonna link the * box into the Findlay repeater?
23:20:28 <Sparks> jjmcd: Go for it
23:20:44 <jjmcd> rbergeron, I assume there will be a Fedora booth?
23:20:49 <rbergeron> sparks: i'm sure we'll have the fedora event box and fedora shirts there.
23:20:53 <rbergeron> At OLF? Oh yes.
23:20:53 <VileGent> Sparks:  let me know on that later
23:21:12 <rbergeron> VileGent is the OLF master (though i hear it's his last year volunteering to do so)
23:21:48 <Sparks> VileGent: The swag or the funding or ?
23:21:53 <VileGent> swag
23:22:01 <rbergeron> swag
23:22:05 <VileGent> i rather keep
23:22:09 <rbergeron> FAD funding is mostly self organized by the FAD people
23:22:12 <Sparks> VileGent: Will do.  And I should be able to help you out when I'm not at my "other" booth
23:22:17 <VileGent> FAD and event funding separate
23:22:26 <Sparks> correct
23:22:54 <VileGent> but i think i can find hold back swag for the Docs FAD
23:23:09 <VileGent> later i would like to talk about Fudcon
23:23:19 <Sparks> VileGent: Awesome!
23:24:05 <Sparks> Okay, anyone have any questions about the FAD @ OLF?
23:24:32 <Sparks> #action Sparks to update the FAD @ OLF page with the FAD template
23:26:17 <Sparks> Okay, moving on
23:26:48 <Sparks> VileGent: You wanted to talk about FUDCON now?
23:26:54 <VileGent> http://noname.math.vt.edu/Fedoraunity/FUDCon%20Blacksburg%20Working%20Schedule.ods
23:27:19 <Sparks> #topic FUDCON
23:27:26 <VileGent> well i am trying to preplan as much as possible for Fudcon
23:27:29 <Sparks> #link http://noname.math.vt.edu/Fedoraunity/FUDCon%20Blacksburg%20Working%20Schedule.ods
23:27:55 <Sparks> VileGent: Okay, you have our attention!  :)
23:28:43 <VileGent> so if the Doc folks like to have a workshop on introduction to the Docs Project etc and be preloaded as a workshop/hackfest  it can be done
23:29:11 <Sparks> VileGent: I think that would be awesome.  Perhaps an intro to DocBook XML as well
23:29:14 <VileGent> i figure by then you will would like time to work on f17 docs
23:29:36 <Sparks> Yep.
23:30:14 <VileGent> as you see for hackfest we have lots of room so i like to see it be used
23:30:30 <Sparks> Well, go ahead and put us down for a hackfest.
23:30:32 <VileGent> and be used productively
23:30:55 <VileGent> friday and sunday or just friday or what
23:30:59 <Sparks> And I'd like to see an Intro to Docs and an Intro to DocBook XML and Publican
23:31:31 <Sparks> ^^^ Those being talks
23:31:40 <Sparks> I'm not sure how much time we'll need.
23:31:43 <Sparks> jjmcd: Your thoughts?
23:32:02 <jjmcd> Need to noodle
23:32:04 <VileGent> sparks do you think you can cover those on saturday ?
23:32:07 <jjmcd> might want 2 sessions
23:32:32 <Sparks> Yeah, I think the two topics are related but mutually exclusive.  I can do those on Saturday
23:33:20 <jjmcd> Yes, definitely separate
23:33:25 <VileGent> do you think you can cover intro to docs in 2 hours
23:33:40 <jjmcd> Prolly intro is 1 hr, XML 2
23:33:42 <Sparks> An hour would probably be a stretch
23:33:45 <Sparks> ya
23:33:47 <VileGent> do you think you can cover intro to docbook in 2 hours
23:33:52 <Sparks> yes
23:33:52 <jjmcd> yeah
23:34:10 <VileGent> do you think you can cover publicain 2 hours
23:34:15 * rbergeron thought saturday was barcamp day?
23:34:19 <jjmcd> part of the xml
23:34:26 <Sparks> I would put DocBook XML and Publican together
23:34:44 <Sparks> they feed off each other
23:34:52 <jjmcd> exactly - publican itself is like 5 minutes
23:35:10 <VileGent> rbergeron:  we will have barcamp but i am also preloading some topics as well
23:35:28 <Sparks> #action Sparks to talk with jsmith about helping out with the DocBook XML/Publican talk
23:35:32 <Sparks> #undo
23:35:32 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0xf183f6c>
23:35:36 <Sparks> #action Sparks to talk with jsmith about helping out with the DocBook XML/Publican talk at FUDCON
23:36:12 <jjmcd> Sparks, if jsmith can't I prolly can
23:36:40 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah, I figured you could.  2 hours is a long time to talk and I'd like to see it tag teamed... :)
23:36:45 <jjmcd> I hate travelling in the winter, but my godson goes to school there so I gotta go
23:36:45 <VileGent> rbergeron:  i want to be sure we have a wide net to possible get new contributors
23:36:54 <jjmcd> yeah, good plan
23:38:31 <Sparks> VileGent: Thanks for thinking of us!  Need anything else from us right now?
23:38:43 <VileGent> so looking back at my link i posted Intro to Docs before lunch and docbook xml/publican after lunch
23:38:57 <Sparks> Perfect
23:39:11 <jjmcd> that does look good
23:40:36 <VileGent> now go sign up for FUDcon and reserve your hotel rooms
23:40:43 <Sparks> :)
23:41:04 <VileGent> and if there is anything you need let me know
23:41:20 <VileGent> as far as fudcon goes
23:42:18 <Sparks> VileGent: Will do.
23:42:21 <Sparks> Anyone have any questions?
23:43:28 <Sparks> Okay, moving on.
23:43:48 <Sparks> #topic Copyright changes for all guides
23:44:04 <Sparks> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/docs/2011-June/013474.html
23:44:42 <Sparks> Back in June we agreed to modify the copyright statement on our guides to say "Fedora Project Contributors" instead of "Red Hat, Inc and others"
23:45:11 <Sparks> If you haven't done so already, please update your guides and republish
23:45:41 <Sparks> #action Sparks to file a bug and patch to fix this in the Publican Fedora brand
23:45:54 <Sparks> This is probably something zoglesby will want to track.
23:46:08 <Sparks> Questions/comments?
23:46:08 <sgordon> is this actually in the brand?
23:46:13 <sgordon> or is it in the ent for the book
23:46:27 <sgordon> i thought the brands just put YOU NEED TO REPLACE THE HOLDER ENTITY
23:46:30 <sgordon> or something of that ilk
23:46:37 <Sparks> sgordon: It's in the ent for the book.  I was thinking that the ent came from the brand.
23:46:45 <Sparks> jjmcd: Wasn't that our discussion?
23:46:54 <sgordon> from previous discussion i think we worked out it doesnt, could be wrong
23:47:09 <Sparks> sgordon: I think it says "Red Hat Inc and others" in the brand because I wouldn't have come up with that by default
23:47:11 <sgordon> easy way to check, hang on i have the brand source checked out
23:47:16 <jjmcd> I don't recall the details, but the ent gets heavily edited
23:47:29 <jjmcd> I thought it was in the boilerplate that is part of the brand
23:47:44 <Sparks> It comes from somewhere by default.  I wouldn't have come up with it by myself.
23:47:57 <jhradilek> sgordon is right, I don't think this depends on a brand at all. Just created a new book to verify that.
23:48:02 <sgordon> there is no ent file in the brand source
23:48:11 <sgordon> i think people just copy paste it from a previous book
23:48:16 <Sparks> Maybe
23:48:18 <sgordon> which is why you see some guides with variations
23:48:27 <jjmcd> Yeah, a new doc gets a sample ent that's pretty lame
23:48:32 <jhradilek> Also, the common brand is used by default, you have to switch to "fedora" manually.
23:48:40 <Sparks> sgordon: It would be nice if it was in the brand...
23:48:51 <Sparks> hmmm
23:49:13 <Sparks> jhradilek: You can make a book with Publican and specify the brand then, correct?
23:49:21 <sgordon> yes
23:49:31 <sgordon> but you still get the default ent file
23:49:50 <Sparks> sgordon: Okay... perhaps I can open a bug for further discussion
23:50:14 <sgordon> <!ENTITY HOLDER "| You need to change the HOLDER entity in the en-US/Test.ent file |">
23:50:19 <jhradilek> True.
23:50:34 <sgordon> and it sets the YEAR entity based on when you did the publican create
23:50:57 <sgordon> so yeah, probably file a bug and ask rudi to follow it up
23:51:05 <Sparks> Okay, I'll do that.
23:51:08 <pkovar> just wondering, does the "Fedora Project Contributors"  line make sense in cases where the former contributors were seemingly not connected to fedora project ?
23:51:11 <Sparks> #undo
23:51:11 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0xefd62ac>
23:51:29 <sgordon> pkovar, either way they still contributed to the project
23:51:32 <sgordon> directly or indirectly
23:51:44 <pkovar> ok, i see
23:51:47 <sgordon> imo, i am of course not a lawyer
23:51:54 <Sparks> #action Sparks to file a bug to continue the discussion on whether or not the copyright holder can come from a Publican brand
23:52:04 <pkovar> me neither :-)
23:52:10 <sgordon> :)
23:52:27 <Sparks> pvWhat former contributors weren't Fedora?
23:52:40 <Sparks> pkovar: What former contributors weren't Fedora?
23:52:56 <pkovar> well, look at rpm guide for example
23:53:27 <pkovar> it's derived from a book originally, afaik
23:53:44 <Sparks> Okay.  Are we licensed to use that work?
23:53:45 <pkovar> the author was not a fedora contributor
23:54:29 <pkovar> the license seems to be "CC-BY-SA
23:54:41 <Sparks> *IF* we are licensed to use that work in our work then we should give attribution.  The person who does the derivative work owns the copyright on the derivative.
23:54:53 <Sparks> spot: You around?
23:55:16 <jjmcd> pkovar, original license wasn't, but we got author permission to change it
23:55:27 <pkovar> great
23:55:52 <jjmcd> But we should include attribution
23:56:08 <jjmcd> So, Sparks, perhaps we don't want it in the brand and hard to change
23:56:17 <jjmcd> Since sometimes there are variants
23:56:26 <pkovar> that's what i was thinking, yes
23:57:07 <Sparks> Well...
23:57:12 <pkovar> when you look eg at upstream gnome docs, they do the attribution
23:57:29 <Sparks> Attribution and the copyright holder are two different things
23:57:40 * Sparks is consulting with his lawyer on the couch
23:58:02 <pkovar> noted
23:58:29 <Sparks> pkovar: Because we are short on time, could you post this to the Docs list so I can get spot and/or other RH Lawyer to weigh in?
23:58:49 <pkovar> sure thing!
23:58:51 * Sparks notes we still haven't properly addressed attribution in our docs
23:58:56 <Sparks> pkovar: Thanks!
23:59:02 <pkovar> np
23:59:07 <Sparks> #topic Open Discussion
23:59:15 <Sparks> 60 seconds...  anyone have anything else?
00:00:30 <Sparks> Well, time is up!  Thanks, everyone, for joining us tonight.  Sorry it was so...  off the cuff.
00:00:35 <Sparks> #endmeeting