14:02:40 <bcotton> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
14:02:40 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Nov  7 14:02:40 2011 UTC.  The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:02:40 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:02:48 * LoKoMurdoK here
14:02:51 <bcotton> #chair sparks jjmcd
14:02:51 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton jjmcd sparks
14:02:56 <bcotton> #topic roll call
14:03:13 <bcotton> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:03:13 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:03:20 * nb 
14:03:27 * pkovar here
14:03:30 * jjmcd 
14:03:34 * nb is actually here for once
14:03:35 * randomuser stirs
14:04:24 * Sparks 
14:04:33 * shaiton lurking :)
14:04:48 <jjmcd> Boy, our agenda sure is out of date
14:04:52 <bcotton> wow, this is quite a turnout.
14:05:19 <jjmcd> bcotton, everyone wanted a chance to hassle you
14:05:45 <bcotton> now i know how rodney dangerfield felt :-)
14:05:49 * jhradilek ✓
14:06:01 <Sparks> jjmcd: Just scrap the agenda and start anew
14:06:10 <bcotton> okay, i think we've given everyone enough of a chance to show up on time. let's have a meeting
14:06:14 * zou is here (late)
14:06:27 <zou> hmm
14:06:31 <bcotton> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
14:06:42 <bcotton> #chair zoglesby
14:06:42 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton jjmcd sparks zoglesby
14:06:42 * nb notes that if you'd like to get notified of docs meetings, please say ".PingLists  add docsping"
14:06:59 <bcotton> #info that if you'd like to get notified of docs meetings, please say  ".PingLists  add docsping"
14:07:17 <bcotton> are the action items even up to date?
14:07:39 <bcotton> jjmcd: you were supposed to send final RN deadlines
14:07:56 <jjmcd> Yes, we were in touch with L10N diretly
14:07:59 <bcotton> zoglesby: you had to send a reminder to trans that final POTs are coming
14:08:13 <jjmcd> got an update RPM into the RC (thanks nb)
14:08:25 <jjmcd> So the CD will have about a dozen translations
14:08:26 <bcotton> Sparks: was to message the docs list discussing QA at OLF and also tow ork on Docs QA wiki page
14:08:48 <jjmcd> We have a couple of bugs so I will make another update RPM, but one will need translations :-(
14:09:29 <Sparks> bcotton: I think zoglesby said he was going to do that
14:09:48 <bcotton> so i guess the question is: which action items are still outstanding?
14:10:47 <jjmcd> Wiki page?
14:11:12 <jjmcd> ACK!
14:11:39 <pkovar> i think we should change the wording of  "send reminder to Trans that Final Guides POT files are coming"
14:11:46 <pkovar> it's misleading
14:12:25 <bcotton> pkovar: hasn't it been done though?
14:12:25 <zoglesby> Sparks: I don't recall that, but I will do so
14:12:28 <zoglesby> #action zoglesby to work on QA wiki page, and restart conversation on docs list
14:12:57 <pkovar> AFAIK the schedule still talks about guides, not RN
14:13:40 <jjmcd> RN on a different schedule than guides, still on Robyn's sked tho
14:13:40 <Sparks> pkovar: RN and guides are on different schedules
14:14:24 <pkovar> Sparks: then we should remove the item because we're not following it, right?
14:14:52 <Sparks> pkovar: Well, we are.
14:15:16 <pkovar> Sparks: for which guides then?
14:15:20 <Sparks> pkovar: There is somewhat of a freeze on guide changes to give TRANS a chance to do their work.
14:15:31 <Sparks> although the freeze isn't enforced
14:16:03 <pkovar> Sparks: i'm afraid the freeze is not followed at all
14:16:14 <Sparks> pkovar: Right, but it *should* be
14:17:06 <pkovar> i doubt though that it's possible to force people to follow it.
14:17:15 <pkovar> so i'd just remove it
14:17:21 <shaiton> just remove push permissions :p
14:17:23 <pkovar> just a thought
14:18:05 <Sparks> pkovar: If we remove that item then there will be no freeze
14:18:17 <jjmcd> shaiton, Often bugs get fixed in master while the translation branch is unchanged
14:18:20 <Sparks> ...and TRANS won't know that there shouldn't be any string freezes
14:18:40 <bcotton> #topic The usefulness of string freezes for guides
14:18:50 <bcotton> (just so that the minutes match reality)
14:19:36 <wmmalith63> hi
14:19:36 <bcotton> i do suggest that we table this topic for now and revisit after thursday. perhaps with some input from l10n?
14:19:51 <Sparks> bcotton: This should be moved to the list.
14:19:53 <jjmcd> bcotton, not a bad plan - perhaps on the list
14:19:55 <shaiton> yep. And RN are different from other guides
14:20:06 <Sparks> Just some background...
14:20:18 <pkovar> yes, good idea, the schedule should basically match the reality too, you know :-)
14:23:00 <wmmalith63> i'm new to IRC chat !
14:23:01 <bcotton> okay, then we'll consider action items acted upon unless otherwise #action'ed and we'll consider the string freezes tabled for a mailing list discussion
14:23:01 <bcotton> which brings us nicely to
14:23:01 <Sparks> The Release Notes are the only "guide" that gets packaged and thus has an earlier schedule.
14:23:02 <bcotton> #topic F16 Schedule
14:23:02 <bcotton> #link http://rbergero.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-16/f-16-docs-tree-tasks.html
14:23:02 <jjmcd> Also, release notes are 100% new so L10N needs more time
14:23:02 <Sparks> ya
14:23:02 <bcotton> according to the schedule, GA is tomorrow, but i believe it's actually set for Thursday?
14:23:02 <Sparks> We should have been "enforcing"/reminding folks about the string freeze.
14:23:03 <bcotton> it looks like Docs should be done by this point. Is there anything outstanding that we really really need to accomplish in the next 3 days?
14:23:03 <jjmcd> bcotton, yes
14:23:03 <Southern_Gentlem> bcotton,  release is tommorrow
14:23:03 <Sparks> Guides should be published to docs.fp.o
14:23:22 <jjmcd> And I need to quick get an update RPM into the repos
14:23:35 <bcotton> jjmcd: yes to what?
14:23:48 <jjmcd> yes stuff to do
14:23:59 <bcotton> Southern_Gentlem: thanks for the correction
14:24:11 <jjmcd> Like Sparks said, docs.fp.o plus new rpm
14:24:37 <bcotton> jjmcd: do you need help or is it just a matter of finishing up?
14:24:38 * Sparks will send a message to the list to make sure everyone publishes their guides to the webpage now.
14:24:58 <jjmcd> bcotton, not sure that help wouldn't be more of a problem than it is worth
14:25:05 <jjmcd> Well wait
14:25:12 <jjmcd> After I get builds done
14:25:22 <jjmcd> Might make sense for someone else to publish to d.fp.o
14:25:29 <jjmcd> while I work on rpm
14:25:36 <jjmcd> then of course I'll need karma
14:25:56 <bcotton> any volunteers to push RN to d.fp.o when jjmcd finishes?
14:26:01 <jjmcd> cool,
14:26:08 <jjmcd> I ping you when ready
14:26:11 <Sparks> jjmcd: is it ready to go now?
14:26:20 <jjmcd> No, I need to make a couple of fixes
14:26:30 <Sparks> jjmcd: Just ping me when ready
14:26:35 <jjmcd> Great, thanks
14:26:56 <bcotton> okay, so that sounds like it's taken care of
14:27:01 <pkovar> OK, so let's see what guides will be really published by tomorrow and then restart the discussion about our schedule
14:27:05 <bcotton> anything else between now and *tomorrow* morning?
14:27:09 <jjmcd> I haven't checked, there are probably a couple of additional languages compared to the current rpm
14:28:31 <bcotton> last call F16
14:28:46 <bcotton> #topic FUDcon Blacksburg
14:28:58 <bcotton> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Blacksburg_2012
14:29:07 <bcotton> #info Docs is sponsoring two classes at FUDCon Blacksburg: Introduction to Docs and DocBookXML/Publican
14:29:22 <bcotton> anyone have things to say about Blacksburg?
14:29:33 <Sparks> bcotton: It's still going to happen.
14:29:51 <bcotton> Sparks: well that's good news
14:29:56 <jjmcd> I don't recall who is doing what, perhaps we should add that particular note to the agenda page
14:30:41 * jjmcd is happy to do whatever is needed, but better to give the younger kids a chance to present
14:30:52 <Sparks> jjmcd: I believe you and jsmith-away are doing the DocBookXML/Publican class
14:30:59 <jjmcd> Yeah, np
14:31:01 <Sparks> ...and I'm helping with the Intro to Docs
14:31:09 <jjmcd> with who?
14:31:15 <Sparks> with...
14:31:20 <Sparks> I don't know... everyone else?
14:31:53 <jjmcd> LOL - I thought someone else had spoke up
14:31:54 <randomuser> any chance these classes will be remotely accessible?
14:32:19 <jjmcd> randomuser, remote chance
14:32:19 <Sparks> randomuser: Not sure.
14:32:23 <Sparks> jjmcd: Bad pun
14:32:42 * nb is finally back
14:32:42 <jjmcd> Actually, chances are they have actual Internet in Virginia (as compared to Italy)
14:33:03 <jjmcd> Perhaps we could do a vyew or something
14:33:30 <Sparks> jjmcd: They should be on Internet2 so bandwidth shouldn't be a problem.
14:33:54 <Southern_Gentlem> Intro into Docs Saturday morning and the other one in the afternoon?
14:33:57 <Sparks> Southern_Gentlem: With lunch in between>
14:33:58 <Sparks> ?
14:33:58 <Southern_Gentlem> yep
14:34:10 <Southern_Gentlem> thats my plan
14:34:41 <randomuser> if nothing else, it might be nice to have a recording for future contributors
14:34:51 <jjmcd> randomuser, yep
14:35:54 <Sparks> Southern_Gentlem: Any chance of having digital video recorders like at SELF?
14:35:56 <jjmcd> We know a person or two with asterisk experience, but typically there have been issues
14:35:56 <Sparks> (only publish the video)
14:35:58 <Sparks> jjmcd: We had it working well at the last event
14:35:58 <Sparks> Unfortunately Fedora scrapped their * project
14:36:16 <jjmcd> We've had some good videos at previous FUDcons, but it seems like it has been spotty
14:39:37 <bcotton> shall we tag Southern_Gentlem with following up about streaming/recording?
14:40:35 <randomuser> i would understand if it's a lot of trouble and doesn't happen. If nobody else expresses an interest, I'm an audience of one.
14:42:04 <Sparks> randomuser: Not exactly
14:45:21 <Sparks> This would be a great benefit to new users.  They could sit back and watch the video and maybe understand what's going on.
14:45:28 <jjmcd> Sparks, might actually be better to produce a video with that purpose, on youtube
14:45:30 <Sparks> Well, we can do that too
14:45:52 <bcotton> #action Southern_Gentlem to check into streaming/recording of video at FUDCon Blacksburg
14:45:52 <bcotton> anything else on blacksburg>
14:45:55 <Southern_Gentlem> bcotton,  you have the equipment it can be done
14:45:58 <Southern_Gentlem> untag
14:45:58 <bcotton> what's the magic command for that
14:46:00 <Southern_Gentlem> #action Southern_Gentlem responds no equipment available at Fudcon unless someone brings their own
14:46:05 <Sparks> #undo
14:46:13 <Sparks> #info Southern_Gentlem responds no equipment available at Fudcon unless someone brings their own
14:46:17 <bcotton> thanks, sparks
14:46:33 <Sparks> #action Sparks to take to the list a request for video recording equipment.
14:46:46 <bcotton> #topic Docs QA
14:47:20 <bcotton> Sparks: the last i recall, we're still going round and round on this?
14:47:55 <Sparks> bcotton: Yep
14:50:46 <bcotton> is there anything more to discuss?
14:50:46 <Sparks> Nope
14:50:47 <bcotton> that's easy enough
14:50:47 <bcotton> #topic Guide Status
14:50:47 <Sparks> We need to set the goals for QA
14:50:51 <bcotton> #undo
14:50:51 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x7fbb7280bed0>
14:50:54 <bcotton> Sparks: "have no errors ever" isn't goal enough? :-)
14:50:55 <Sparks> Well, that's a goal.
14:50:55 <Sparks> I'd say something like...
14:50:57 <Sparks> 1) To review all guides for errors before release.
14:50:59 <Sparks> 2) To review all guides for spelling and grammar errors.
14:51:01 <Sparks> 3) To review all guides for proper use of DocBook tags.
14:51:24 <Sparks> 4) To review all changes to guides (from bug reports) before release.
14:51:24 <Sparks> EOF
14:51:49 <bcotton> sounds good to me. since you're sending email, want to send that out for comment as well?
14:52:07 <Sparks> Sure
14:52:25 <bcotton> #action Sparks to send proposed Docs QA goals to mailing list
14:52:29 <bcotton> #topic Guide Status
14:57:27 <bcotton> #topic Guide Status
14:57:28 <bcotton> well... it seems like zodbot might be having some problems?
14:57:28 <bcotton> but in the meantime, who has things to say about guides
14:57:29 <Sparks> Security Guide has been published.
14:57:29 <Sparks> #info Security Guide has been published.
14:57:29 <bcotton> anything else? other guides?
14:57:29 <bcotton> hm. doesn't look like it.
14:57:30 <bcotton> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
14:57:30 <bcotton> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84
14:57:31 <bcotton> zoglesby: didn't you mention having a bug-squashing party
14:58:03 <nb> ?
14:58:07 <nb> what's wrong with zodbot
14:58:12 <Sparks> It's lagging
14:58:24 <bcotton> looks like it just caught up
14:58:24 <nb> probably trying to catch up with the aftersplit
14:58:25 <nb> .ping
14:58:25 <zodbot> pong
14:58:28 <nb> .ding
14:58:29 <zodbot> a-ling
14:58:34 <nb> works now
14:58:50 <nb> hmm, i thought ding used to == dong
14:59:28 <bcotton> okay, looks like zoglesby isn't around
14:59:54 <bcotton> #action bcotton to email list to schedule Docs Bug Squashing Party
15:02:13 <bcotton> #topic Open floor discussion
15:03:07 <bcotton> anyone have anything?
15:03:11 <bcotton> anyone even still here?
15:03:15 <jjmcd> nope
15:03:27 * nb is here
15:03:35 * jhradilek too.
15:03:36 * nb has something
15:03:40 <bcotton> go ahead nb
15:03:51 <shaiton> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/docs/2011-November/013850.html
15:03:54 <nb> #info nb is working on repacking git repos so that it doesn't take forever and a day to download our git repos
15:03:56 * randomuser is listening behind lag
15:04:00 <shaiton> anyone concerned?:p
15:04:38 <Sparks> nb: +1
15:04:39 <jjmcd> shaiton, not here
15:04:53 <bcotton> shaiton: sounds like a good idea to me
15:05:01 <bcotton> nb: you're an outstanding human being
15:05:25 <Sparks> shaiton: 1kb has always equaled 1000 b
15:05:48 <shaiton> jjmcd, yes I know, just to let know that this thread still there;)
15:06:20 <Southern_Gentlem> 1024
15:06:34 <Sparks> bytes not bits
15:06:51 <shaiton> Sparks, yes, but binary is in power of 2, not in power of 10. That said, ls speack about binary notation
15:07:29 <Sparks> shaiton: There is a difference between bytes and bits.
15:07:57 <shaiton> Sparks, Yes, I've got a bachelor in electronics
15:08:29 * Sparks is missing the point apparently
15:08:33 <shaiton> but 100 Mb should be written as 100 Mib, to avoid confusion
15:08:44 <shaiton> look at the "ls" command
15:09:07 <shaiton> ls -lh display in "M", that should be "Mi".
15:09:13 <Sparks> What's Mi?
15:09:18 <nb> mibibyte
15:09:22 <nb> or mebibyte i forget which
15:09:28 <jjmcd> new-fangled politically correct speak
15:09:29 <nb> it means "we really mean 1024"
15:09:40 <Sparks> A Megabyte is MB
15:09:44 <shaiton> man  ls => --si   likewise, but use powers of 1000 not 1024
15:10:00 <shaiton> hum
15:10:15 <nb> mebibyte ==1024 not 1000
15:10:16 <Sparks> MB == 1024kB
15:10:19 <hno> Capital B please if your refer to Bytes. b is more associated with bits.
15:10:31 <shaiton> Sparks, to avoid confusion, you should use mebibyte, not mega
15:10:36 <shaiton> nb, thanks ;)
15:10:50 <jjmcd> Sparks, shaiton thinks MB = 1000 KB
15:11:00 <Sparks> jjmcd: But it doesn't
15:11:04 <jjmcd> Different from classical usage
15:11:13 <jjmcd> But in keeping with Euro usage
15:11:26 <Sparks> A Mb == 1000kb
15:11:35 * pingou always had the feeling this was "another unit to say the same thing"
15:11:36 <Sparks> A MB == 1024kB
15:12:08 <jjmcd> Well, when it started being used in our industry, it was a way for drive manufacturers to exaggerate
15:12:16 <Sparks> jjmcd: True
15:12:33 <jjmcd> But shaiton makes a good point, in SI usage K=1000, not 1024
15:12:33 <Sparks> jjmcd: But that is how networking and storage are both depicted
15:12:48 <hno> 1 MB is 1000000 Byte  if you ask storage vendors, or 1000000 Byte if you ask a Memory vendor or computer oriented person.
15:12:48 <shaiton> pingou, just to avoid confusion, M in the computing world = 1024^2 where M in the SI units world = 1000^2
15:12:54 <Sparks> Correct but the math doesn't work when talking about bytes
15:12:59 <shaiton> using "Mi" avoid confusion
15:13:26 <Sparks> shaiton: I have never seen Mi
15:13:30 <pingou> shaiton: I know understand the difference and the reason, but I just never got convinced (MB is too deep in me)
15:13:33 <shaiton> jjmcd, the SI group recommands the usage of mebi… As given in my email
15:14:34 <jjmcd> shaiton, us old guys cringe at K=1000 in respect to storage or networking because it is a lie used by drive manfacturers
15:14:54 <jjmcd> But I understand the opportunity for confusion
15:15:07 <jjmcd> esp. since 99.9% of the users have no clue
15:15:38 <Sparks> jjmcd: There isn't any confusion if "MiB" is used to describe 1000kB.  MB is still correct.
15:15:40 <shaiton> Sparks, as said in my email, the RN (published *tomorrow*) are using the Mib notation
15:15:48 <shaiton> MiB*
15:15:58 <Sparks> jjmcd: You put MiB in the RNs?
15:16:05 <jjmcd> shaiton, RNs only used what was provided on the feature pages
15:16:20 <shaiton> Sparks, just read that: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/docs/2011-November/013850.html …
15:16:34 <shaiton> jjmcd, I know, massing copy from upstream :)
15:16:43 <shaiton> massive*
15:16:55 <jjmcd> Yep, in a lot of places
15:17:42 <jjmcd> Sparks, the issue is changing from common usage (in the industry) to new-fangled politically correct speak, which I suppose is inevitable (as much as I hate it)
15:17:44 <Sparks> It would seem that "fixing" would require a calculator.  If the units are being used correctly then what's the problem?
15:18:03 <shaiton> Sparks, no
15:18:22 <shaiton> As I said before, the well known ls command for example
15:18:37 <shaiton> use "M" was speaking about "Mi"
15:18:54 <shaiton> you need to add the --si switch to get real M
15:19:09 <shaiton> welcome to the computing world
15:19:17 <Sparks> shaiton: Ummm... I disagree
15:19:22 <shaiton> some people are open to change, some other not.
15:19:22 <Sparks> When I use M I mean M
15:19:39 <shaiton> WE have to decide wether we want good usage or not
15:19:56 <kk4ewt> Sparks,  sorry to me Mb or MB is still 1024 because computers it is based on binary
15:20:08 <Sparks> WE use industry standards that have been around for decades
15:20:10 <hno> Sparks, so what do you use when you mean 1048576
15:20:24 <jjmcd> But according to SI, that's wrong
15:20:26 <Sparks> hno: What are your units?
15:20:40 <Sparks> jjmcd: The math doesn't work when using bytes
15:20:51 <jjmcd> Sparks, yep
15:21:09 <shaiton> Sparks, industry standards are well known, but some still inches. Do you ?
15:21:29 <jjmcd> Sparks, but only backwards countries, the US and some island in the south Pacfic, don't use the SI standard
15:21:50 <jjmcd> So K=1024 is wrong to most of the world
15:21:54 <shaiton> the SI world just told us to use Mi. http://www1.bipm.org/utils/common/pdf/si_brochure_8.pdf p.127
15:22:10 <shaiton> (look for "mebi")
15:22:13 <Sparks> So basically you are asking us to be ground breakers
15:22:23 <shaiton> but I don't say that
15:22:35 <shaiton> I am just asking if we want to use that.
15:22:40 <jjmcd> kk4ewt, what is the talk-in frequency for FUDcon
15:22:57 <shaiton> As "we" I mean you guys, and us websites. We should use same usage
15:23:03 <Sparks> There is little adoption of Mi and Ki...  Using those units will 1) educate people of the difference and 2) confuse people
15:23:22 <jjmcd> shaiton, I think we need to take this to the list.  It needs more exposure, and we are way past time
15:23:31 <Sparks> jjmcd: It's on the list
15:23:44 <jjmcd> But little conversation
15:23:47 <shaiton> who are going to add this usage? Devs? No… teachers? Yes. Docs? Yes
15:23:56 <shaiton> ok ;)
15:24:40 <bcotton> #info everyone should weigh in on the unit labeling thread
15:24:43 <bcotton> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/docs/2011-November/013850.html
15:25:07 <bcotton> okay, since we're moving this to the list and we're way over time, is there anything else that can't wait for next week?
15:26:21 <bcotton> okay, well thanks to everyone. enjoy installing 16 tomorrow morning!
15:26:23 <bcotton> #endmeeting