14:00:37 <bcotton> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings 14:00:37 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan 30 14:00:37 2012 UTC. The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:00:37 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:00:46 <bcotton> #meetingname Fedora Docs 14:00:46 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs' 14:00:53 <bcotton> #topic Roll Call 14:01:26 * jjmcd 14:02:02 * Sparks 14:02:26 <suehle> hi 14:02:42 * randomuser stumbles in 14:03:58 * sgordon trips over behind randomuser 14:04:33 <bcotton> looks like i need to put a rug over those cables 14:05:09 <Sparks> bcotton: Nah, it just gets the ones that don't pay attention 14:05:23 * Sparks has cables that are shin high for just that reason 14:06:01 <bcotton> well let's get started before Sparks hurts anyone else 14:06:03 <bcotton> #topic Follow up on last week's action items 14:06:13 <bcotton> i did 50% of my items, and sparks did his 14:06:22 <Sparks> Woot! 14:06:34 <bcotton> #action bcotton to add some links, etc to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_contribute_to_Docs 14:07:08 <bcotton> #topic Release Notes 14:07:20 <bcotton> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Release_Notes_schedule 14:07:27 <bcotton> Beats now open, take a beat, or re-take previous beat by removing * from your name at 14:07:32 <jjmcd> Still plenty of beats to be had 14:07:35 <bcotton> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats 14:07:57 <bcotton> jjmcd: at what point do you start kicking doors down to find beat writers? 14:08:17 <Sparks> We have a beat for productivity? 14:08:20 <jjmcd> Pretty soon here. A few are developers, etc. Some will definitely show 14:08:27 <jjmcd> Others might need a reminder 14:08:33 <Sparks> is that the guy that takes the games out of Fedora? 14:09:05 <jjmcd> Well, I'm pretty confident e.g. that Haskell will be covered 14:09:18 <jjmcd> But Sci/Tech will take a little reminder 14:09:31 * Sparks thought ke4qqq was going to take the cloud beat 14:10:10 <jjmcd> I'll bug him. I think I can count on rbergeron to do nothing 14:10:22 <Sparks> Wow 14:10:27 <sgordon> i am probably ok to pick up a few more if required, but i will leave it for now 14:10:29 <jjmcd> Not a writer, that one 14:10:30 <suehle> The beat assignment page could use some description of what's required of the beat owner--like how well they should know the area and something more infomrative about the writing involved than "essentially draft sections for the release notes document" 14:10:48 <sgordon> atm i have the security and Xorg beats 14:10:52 * Sparks thinks suehle just volunteered to add descriptions to the beats page 14:11:01 * sgordon nods 14:11:03 * suehle thinks that suehle wants that information for herself first 14:11:07 <jjmcd> suehle, there is a link at the top, but more weasel words around it might help 14:11:09 <bcotton> #action suehle to add descriptions to the beats page 14:11:30 <jjmcd> More appealing weasel words, that is 14:11:30 <suehle> oh hey, Docs Project workflow - beat writing 14:11:31 <Sparks> We're rough in here this morning 14:11:35 <suehle> so what we're saying is suehle can't read 14:11:42 * bcotton never said that 14:11:45 <Sparks> suehle: But you can write! 14:11:54 <suehle> It turns out they ARE mutually exclusive! 14:11:54 <sgordon> i can drive a tractor 14:12:13 <sgordon> "we cant read, we cant write, but we can drive a tractor" ;D 14:12:22 <suehle> I can use thetracktor.com 14:12:40 <bcotton> ohhhhh kay, well this is a rathole i never expected 14:12:51 <Sparks> suehle: They aren't mutually exclusive. Just take me... oh wait. 14:12:54 <bcotton> anything else on topic, or shall we move on? 14:13:05 <Sparks> move on while you still have time 14:13:21 <bcotton> #topic Guide Status 14:13:29 <bcotton> #link http://rbergero.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-17/f-17-docs-tree-tasks.html 14:13:53 <bcotton> Sparks: you were interested in packaging docs for install. What did you discover in your testing? 14:13:55 <suehle> Hey, my FAS login worked today! 14:14:12 <Sparks> bcotton: I learned... 14:14:23 <Sparks> that Publican needs to support THREE desktop files for it to work. 14:14:41 <Sparks> #action Sparks to file an RFE on Publican to support three desktop files in Publican 14:14:50 <sgordon> yeah that is pretty bad 14:14:56 <sgordon> and was news to me too 14:15:11 <sgordon> i have an internal use case for desktop packages 14:15:16 <sgordon> so i can +1 that bug as well 14:15:30 * Sparks is used to KDE being... different... but GNOME also fits into that category 14:16:12 <Sparks> I'll be using what jjmcd does for the RNs for Pubican 14:16:18 <jjmcd> I'm surprised nobody is suggesting Cinnamon ... there is a lot of buzz about that lately 14:16:27 <Sparks> This will be important for RH with RHEL 7 anyway 14:16:37 <Sparks> jjmcd: I prefer nutmeg 14:16:54 <jjmcd> Well, I haven't tried either ;) 14:17:02 * Sparks doesn't know what he's talking about 14:17:32 <bcotton> so should we defer the docs packaging until such time as publican better supports the DEs? 14:18:04 <randomuser> bcotton, what is gained with the .desktop file? 14:18:04 <Sparks> bcotton: Well... I might be able to shoehorn it in. 14:18:21 <Sparks> I'm not saying I can do this before F17 but I'm going to try. 14:18:25 <sgordon> what we probably need to be wary of, is that where it appears in the menus of the various DEs might change once the bug is fixed 14:18:28 <sgordon> bug/RFE 14:18:37 <bcotton> randomuser: it will be hard for a "normal" user to find it on the system 14:18:42 <jjmcd> d-p-r does all the work. It also means that each new packaging requirement gets fixed in one place 14:19:15 <bcotton> Sparks: the other question is "is this worth our effort?" not sure i know the answer 14:19:21 <jjmcd> Sounds like maybe I'll have to finally package the packager 14:19:22 <Sparks> jjmcd: Well, it's not in one place. Publican would be "one place" 14:19:42 <Sparks> bcotton: Don't know until we get there. 14:19:44 <jjmcd> Well, yeah. But to make it fit in Fedora cleanly, Publican is NEVER going to do that 14:20:03 <jjmcd> Unless FESCo makes a huge change 14:20:09 <Sparks> If we package everything we have the ability to install language-appropriate docs onto the desktop. 14:20:17 <Sparks> jjmcd: Why? 14:20:39 <randomuser> Sparks, and update the package for errata, i think that's the most appealing 14:20:47 <jjmcd> Because in Fedora, things are in your selected language. In RHEL, apparently in your installed language 14:21:06 <Sparks> jjmcd: We can do the installed thing, too 14:21:15 <Sparks> Smaller packages, less updates, etc 14:21:38 <jjmcd> Yes we can, but until we decide that Fedora no linger works in your SELECTED language ... 14:22:07 <Sparks> How many installations are multi-lingual? 14:22:22 <jjmcd> ANd I hate to think of the testing implications ... sheesh. 14:22:44 <jjmcd> Currently I just log on to test a language. I would hate to have to reinstall the whole shebang 14:22:53 <Sparks> I really don't think it will be a big deal. The Anaconda folks already have hooks for this. 14:22:55 <sgordon> tbh mine is multi-lingual 14:23:01 <sgordon> i switch to chinese when required 14:23:27 <Sparks> sgordon: And it wouldn't be difficult to pull down what you wanted in Chinese or whatever the other lang would be. 14:23:30 <sgordon> but yeah, RHEL does it in anaconda as well afaik 14:23:31 <jjmcd> In places like Belgium, France, Eastern Canada I think you will see plenty multi lingua; 14:23:36 <sgordon> for their release notes package 14:24:23 <jjmcd> Sparks, if you install separate packages how do you select the language you want. Menu entries for every language? 14:24:27 <Sparks> This won't limit everything to a single language but it will free up lots of space then just pushing ALL bits to a box when 90+% won't be used, ever. 14:24:36 <jjmcd> Pretty soon that gets to be a problem 14:24:38 <Sparks> jjmcd: no 14:24:45 <jjmcd> I do, tho, agree with the space thing 14:25:07 <Sparks> jjmcd: Everything would work as it does today except the user would have to install languages that aren't installed as default. 14:25:15 <Sparks> So I have English and French... 14:25:21 <Sparks> My default is French... 14:25:25 <jjmcd> How are you going to make that work. Have you thought through that? 14:25:32 <Sparks> I can then go and install all the en-US documentation. 14:25:55 <Sparks> When I change my language settings from French to English then the English docs are default. 14:26:09 <Sparks> RHEL does that now. 14:26:20 <randomuser> can the .desktop file cause a one-time prompt to pop up when switching languages, ie "Do you want to install system documentation for your selected language?" 14:26:21 <Sparks> You might still see both languages 14:26:33 <bcotton> it sounds like there's still a lot to figure out and the point is somewhat moot until that Publican RFE is completed 14:26:35 * LoKoMurdoK here 14:26:38 * LoKoMurdoK late 14:26:40 <sgordon> randomuser, it probably can but not sure we could/should go that far down the path just yet 14:27:01 <jjmcd> randomuser, no 14:27:05 <bcotton> can we table this topic for now and move it to #fedora-docs or the ML until we're in a position to move forward? 14:27:14 <Sparks> randomuser: We could probably do a python program to pull in additional languages but right now anaconda would pull in the default language files. 14:27:40 <jjmcd> Sparks, have you actually looked at the menu process? 14:27:48 <jjmcd> Or is this conjecture? 14:28:04 <Sparks> jjmcd: A little bit of both. 14:28:28 <Sparks> jjmcd: I haven't played on RHEL in many months but I'm recalling and since we don't have language specific files in Fedora right now... 14:28:32 <Sparks> I can't really test. 14:28:33 <jjmcd> I could imagine us doing a very very smart doc installer, but it would be a helluva lot of work 14:29:01 <Sparks> jjmcd: I don't think it would be difficult. Pull in all fedora-*-fr-FR 14:29:05 <jjmcd> ANd I haven't seen any RPMs do stuff that fancy 14:29:25 <Sparks> That's the easy part 14:29:34 <jjmcd> No 14:29:43 <Sparks> IMO the anaconda piece, which already exists, was the hard part 14:30:00 <jjmcd> The RPM needs to know the current lang, and all the already installed langs, then has to make some edits that depend on both 14:30:12 <jjmcd> In anaconda, you can only install one lang 14:30:14 <Sparks> Why? 14:30:25 <sgordon> i dont really see why you have to do it from inside the RPM itself 14:30:31 <jjmcd> THINK ABOUT HOW THE MENU WORKS 14:30:31 <Sparks> yum will already know what's installed 14:30:45 <jjmcd> Yes, so RPM can ask yum 14:30:45 <sgordon> terminator for instance detects when i have text in my console that is in another lang and offers to install the font packages 14:30:49 <jjmcd> how does it do that 14:31:06 <Sparks> because it's smart. :) 14:31:10 <sgordon> i think you are looking at it from the wrong end 14:31:17 <sgordon> anaconda should install based on the default language 14:31:29 <sgordon> then if we wanted to the change would be in the language switcher 14:31:47 <sgordon> to say hey, you just selected french, do you want french language documentation? 14:31:50 <jjmcd> sgordon, that might be simpler 14:32:00 <Sparks> jjmcd: That's what I'm talking about 14:32:13 <sgordon> like i said before we might not want or be able to go that far straight away 14:32:29 <sgordon> but that is possibly the lowest hanging fruit way to do it 14:33:07 <randomuser> sgordon, this future mechanism might pull in RPMs for your fonts as well 14:33:20 <jjmcd> sgordon, probably right if saving disk space is that critical 14:33:29 <sgordon> well i know for the product i did this for 14:33:39 <sgordon> deploying them all takes hundreds of megs 14:33:42 <sgordon> just for english 14:33:44 <sgordon> lol 14:34:03 <bcotton> okay, there's not much left on the agenda, but let's move on so that we can get finished. then we can debate the install issue elsewhere 14:34:11 <bcotton> #topic Outstanding BZ Ticket 14:34:14 <sgordon> (we ship documentation packages with RHEV 3.0, but not multi-lingual yet) 14:34:22 <bcotton> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84 14:34:49 <bcotton> #action bcotton to start doing his job and send QA status reminders to the QA ML 14:35:08 <Sparks> .bug 785751 14:35:09 <zodbot> Sparks: Invalid Bug ID - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=785751 14:35:23 <Sparks> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=785751 14:35:49 <Sparks> ^^^ RFE for Publican 14:36:11 <bcotton> thanks Sparks 14:36:23 <bcotton> anything else on open docs bugs? 14:36:32 <Sparks> rudi already said he was interested in this bug as it will affect GNOME 3 14:36:39 <Sparks> s/GNOME 3/RHEL 7 14:39:00 <bcotton> #topic Open Floor discussion not related to docs packaging 14:39:11 <Sparks> *snort* 14:40:13 <bcotton> anything to discuss this week? we already got our traditional can o' worms opened a bit early 14:40:19 <randomuser> i have an idea 14:41:02 <bcotton> randomuser: go ahead 14:41:04 <randomuser> I'm still acclimating to the workflow/process here, and have made only a little progress on the documentation guide 14:41:36 <randomuser> but every week, you guys reference, or I discover, another relevant wiki page that helps a lot 14:42:09 <randomuser> is it too much handholding to ask for if I started a mailing list thread to request sources/favorites? 14:42:54 <bcotton> randomuser: not at all. would you be willing to collect those links from an easy-to-find page? (e.g. the one i'm supposed to add links to) 14:43:08 <bcotton> the problem i've found with wikis is that it's easy for content to hide if you don't already know it's there 14:43:13 <randomuser> exactly 14:44:39 <randomuser> are you asking if i would collect links from or FOR the page? 14:44:48 <bcotton> randomuser: for, sorry 14:45:06 <randomuser> of couse 14:45:07 <bcotton> coffee < 1c still 14:45:11 <randomuser> awww 14:45:38 <randomuser> my first cup just hit guzzling temperature 14:46:16 <bcotton> #action randomuser to solicit wiki pages to put in an easy to find area 14:46:25 <randomuser> ok then 14:46:31 <bcotton> anything else for the open floor today? 14:47:24 <bcotton> last call! 14:48:26 <bcotton> #endmeeting