14:01:15 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
14:01:15 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Aug 13 14:01:15 2012 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:15 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:01:15 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:01:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:01:21 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
14:01:56 * pkovar is here
14:02:16 * Sparks is here (obviously)
14:03:21 * rbergeron peeks in
14:03:23 * jjmcd 
14:03:33 * sgordon 
14:04:04 <claneys> hi
14:05:30 <Sparks> Okay, lets get started.
14:05:38 * claneys ready
14:05:48 <claneys> *_*
14:05:51 * jsmith shows up late to the party
14:05:56 <Sparks> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
14:06:14 <Sparks> #action Sparks to add relevant git commands to QA procedures
14:06:23 <Sparks> ianweller: you around?
14:06:31 <Sparks> #action bcotton to send call for volunteers for QA Wrangler to mailing list
14:06:51 <Sparks> #action ianweller to ask the guys behind the packages app if man pages is a thing they can do
14:07:20 <Sparks> I don't think anyone is around to address their to-do list.  I did not get to mine.
14:07:40 <Sparks> Moving on to the first topic to discuss...
14:07:41 <Sparks> #topic Removing Release Notes launcher from desktops
14:07:49 <Sparks> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=846316
14:08:00 <Sparks> #info Person would like to have the Release Notes removed from the desktop as a launcher.
14:08:13 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design/F18_Launcher_Purge
14:08:39 <Sparks> This appears to be part of an attack on many programs that are listed in GNOME in Fedora.
14:09:18 <sgordon> my initial response would not be very polite
14:09:18 <jsmith> Appears that away to me
14:09:19 <sgordon> but ok
14:09:20 <Sparks> The argument being that the Release Notes shouldn't have a desktop icon and people should instead hunt around for a link to a file on their computer.
14:09:31 <Sparks> So I'm -1 to the proposal.
14:09:38 <sgordon> im -1 as well
14:09:47 <jsmith> My response is -- how would someone looking for the Release Notes know to open their browser and look in the bookmarks?
14:09:48 <jsmith> That
14:09:50 <jjmcd> The GNOME Launcner sure is clunky when you have a lot of apps, but chipping away at one or two ain't gonna help the person wo installs lotsa stuff (like me)
14:10:01 <jsmith> That's fairly difficult behavior to stumble across :-(
14:10:01 <sgordon> if the large number of launchers makes opening applications difficult in gnome
14:10:11 <sgordon> then maybe gnome needs to handle opening applications better...
14:10:14 <jjmcd> jsmith, plus, we have like a dozen browsers for a reason
14:10:20 <jjmcd> sgordon, EXACTLY!
14:10:24 <Sparks> sgordon: Yes
14:10:55 <Sparks> I'll happily send this ticket back from whence it came.
14:10:55 * jsmith thinks axing the release notes from the launchers also sends the wrong message to the people who put lots of time and effort into building the release notes
14:11:30 <jsmith> For some of the launchers they're removing, it makes sense to move them to a control panel
14:11:47 <jsmith> So I guess in general I'm in favor of cleaning up the launchers, but I don't think Release Notes should be removed
14:12:02 <jsmith> (or, if they want to create a new "Help" tab and move it there, I'm OK with that)
14:12:07 <jjmcd> The original reporter indicated there were "lots" of other ways, but so far he hasn't proposed a reasonable alternative
14:12:24 <jsmith> Shall we suggest one or two of our own?
14:12:30 <jjmcd> jsmith, I think we need more sane categories
14:12:44 <Sparks> jsmith: I think we have done what we thought was easy for people to find
14:12:57 <pkovar> well, i think this is (or should be related ) to the new start up app that is planned for fedora in gnome usptream
14:12:58 <jsmith> jjmcd: It's not just about categories -- from my little observations, people rarely use the categories, or even understand that they are there
14:13:09 <pkovar> https://live.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/GettingStarted
14:13:23 <jjmcd> jsmith, if the apps installed into sensible categories, they might
14:13:26 <pkovar> part of the plan is to reference relevant gnome and fedora documentation from this app
14:13:48 <pkovar> so that people can use this instead of launchers to access RN and other docs
14:14:00 <Sparks> pkovar: Let me just say that my gut reaction from looking at that page is "it has fail written all over it"
14:14:23 <Sparks> "Prioritise things that will be interesting to new users "
14:14:30 <jsmith> pkovar: Do you really think the GNOME help (Getting Started page) will link to our Fedora release notes?
14:14:31 <Sparks> How do you know what will be interesting to a new user?
14:14:33 <jjmcd> Yeah, those "getting started" apps are pretty much a PITA
14:14:50 <pkovar> jsmith: it should, definitely
14:14:52 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yes!  No one actually uses them.
14:14:55 <jsmith> pkovar: Traditionally, the GNOME help hasn't been very keen on linking to distro-specific things
14:14:58 <pkovar> we should communicate this
14:15:07 <pkovar> with the gnome upstream
14:15:11 <pkovar> at some later point
14:15:27 <jsmith> I agree -- communication would be wonderful :-)
14:15:38 <pkovar> jsmith, yes, that should part of the change
14:15:41 <iamnew> ^.^
14:15:47 <pkovar> for better user experience :-)
14:15:54 <jsmith> WORKSFORME
14:16:07 * Sparks notes that he has attempted to communicate with GNOME several times and has several tickets open... that are still open years later.
14:16:14 <jsmith> I'm all about improving the user experience... I'm just not sure that hiding the release notes as currently proposed does that
14:16:26 <Sparks> jsmith: Seems to go the other way doesn't it?
14:17:24 <jjmcd> Shall I close that with NOTABUG?
14:17:36 <Sparks> jjmcd: I took the ticket.  I can do it.
14:17:48 <pkovar> if this is just about hiding and not adding any new pointers, then it's  not the way to go for sure
14:17:59 <jjmcd> I would close it with a complete explanation, tho, point by point
14:18:16 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah, I can do that.
14:18:35 <jsmith> Sparks: And let's go out of our way to show that we're willing to look for a win-win solution here, and not just dismiss it out of hand
14:19:23 <Sparks> It would appear the requester created his FAS account to just start the attack on Fedora's implementation of GNOME.
14:19:28 <jjmcd> Personally, removing the launcher could simplify things for us
14:19:53 <jjmcd> There seem to be constant changes in how that works, and every release there are a couple of tweaks that need to be made
14:20:03 <Sparks> So we are agreed to reject the request until a better solution is available?
14:20:12 <jjmcd> +1
14:20:18 <Sparks> +1
14:20:53 <jjmcd> Crap - that list has them removing a lot of important apps
14:21:01 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yes
14:21:10 <Sparks> anyone else want to vote on the proposal?
14:21:12 <rbergeron> +1 (if that wasn't clear from my comments in the bug)
14:21:14 <jjmcd> They are trying to turn GNOME int Sugar
14:21:21 <rbergeron> jjmcd: indeed.
14:22:17 <Sparks> #agreed We reject the proposal to remove Fedora Release Notes from the GNOME desktop.
14:22:21 <Sparks> Okay, moving along...
14:22:32 <Sparks> #topic Using koji to publish docs.fp.o
14:22:40 <Martix> jjmcd: +1 :-D
14:22:45 <Sparks> #info List discussion https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/docs/2012-May/014324.html
14:22:53 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Automating_publishing
14:23:34 <Sparks> #info Sparks doesn't have any additional information about this but will follow up with Rudi this week.
14:23:42 <Sparks> Anyone have anything?
14:24:20 <pkovar> Sparks: yes
14:24:28 <Sparks> pkovar: Go ahead
14:24:46 <pkovar> once publican 3.0 is in repos, we will be unable to publish docs for fedora
14:24:48 <sgordon> i think he probably wants to package publican 3 first Sparks
14:25:09 <pkovar> because the current infra requires publican 2.8 AFAIK
14:25:23 <sgordon> yes, rudi will be aware of that constraint though
14:25:31 <sgordon> and aiming to get infra upgrade as well i assume
14:25:35 <sgordon> *upgraded
14:25:44 <pkovar> that's great!
14:26:02 <lnovich1> i think that everything will work after the upgrade
14:26:05 <sgordon> but i am assuming he only wants to do that upgrade once
14:26:19 <sgordon> which would mean moving to the koji based push process
14:26:25 <sgordon> and publican 3 at the same time
14:26:29 <lnovich1> he told me he will try to be at next weeks meeting
14:26:41 <Sparks> #info An upgrade to Publican 3 will break current functionality until the backend can be upgraded as well.
14:26:42 <lnovich1> so he can answer questions
14:27:18 <Sparks> lnovich1: Awesome
14:27:26 <pkovar> ok, sounds great
14:28:55 <Sparks> Anything else?
14:29:27 <Sparks> #info Rudi to provide input before or during the next meeting
14:30:01 <Sparks> Okay, moving on.
14:30:02 <Sparks> #topic QA recap
14:30:02 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_QA_Procedure
14:30:21 <Sparks> #info bcotton is supposed to be working this more.  No update this week.
14:30:27 <Sparks> Anyone have anything on this topic?
14:31:52 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets (5 minutes)
14:31:52 <Sparks> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84
14:32:09 * Sparks reminds everyone to take a ticket and file a patch and we'll have better docs.
14:32:30 <Sparks> #topic Open floor discussion
14:32:36 <Sparks> Okay, does anyone have anything?
14:33:06 <jjmcd> Yes
14:33:15 <jjmcd> Where is the F18 schedule?
14:33:21 <jjmcd> Seems like it is about dues
14:33:25 <Sparks> rbergeron: ^^^
14:33:38 <Sparks> jjmcd: It's out there but I can never remember how to find it in the wiki.
14:33:52 <rbergeron> fedoraproject.org/wiki/Schedule
14:34:07 <rbergeron> http://jreznik.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-18/f-18-docs-tasks.html
14:34:27 <rbergeron> sparks: you can now s/rbergeron/jreznik ;) though i am always happy to help
14:34:38 <lnovich1> i have an issue
14:34:54 <lnovich1> i need a reviewer
14:34:55 <pkovar> oh, so jreznik is now working on schedules? good to know :-)
14:35:01 <lnovich1> any volunteers?
14:36:02 <Sparks> lnovich1: bug?
14:36:07 <Sparks> rbergeron: But we love you
14:36:48 <rbergeron> sparks: mmhmm, likely story
14:37:48 <lnovich1> no bug - A whole new guide
14:38:14 <Sparks> Oh, THAT kind of reviewer.
14:38:15 <lnovich1> sparks this is the best way to empty the room
14:38:19 <lnovich1> watch...
14:39:05 <Sparks> lnovich1: What guide is it?
14:39:24 <lnovich1> Virtualization Administration guide
14:39:59 <lnovich1> see sparks, you mention you need someone to read a manual and the chat room empties
14:40:03 <jreznik> pkovar: what's the problem? :)
14:40:57 <pkovar> jreznik: hey, no problem here, keeu up the good work! :-)
14:41:04 <pkovar> * keep
14:41:44 <Sparks> lnovich1: I'd post something to the docs-list.
14:41:58 <lnovich1> ok will do
14:42:03 <Sparks> #info lnovich1 needs someone to help review the Virtualization Administration Guide (it's new!).
14:42:10 <Sparks> Okay, anything else?
14:42:28 <lnovich1> not from me
14:42:41 <jjmcd> yeah
14:42:55 <Sparks> jjmcd: Go
14:43:07 * jjmcd will need someone else to take point on RNs.  I have almost no cycles between now an Halloween
14:43:27 <jjmcd> I can still help but can't count on hitting deadlines
14:43:44 <Sparks> Not what I wanted to hear.
14:44:04 <jjmcd> Well, Oct likely to be better than Aug, Sep
14:44:18 <jjmcd> But lots and lots on my plate
14:44:43 <jjmcd> The good news is that the beat writers do most of the work
14:44:59 <Sparks> jjmcd: Do you have all your tools and such available for someone to consume?
14:45:08 <Sparks> jjmcd: Also, can you take this to the docs-list, please?
14:45:19 <jjmcd> Yes,I think they are all in git, actually
14:45:31 <Sparks> #info jjmcd will not be able to lead the Release Notes effort this release
14:46:09 <Sparks> jjmcd: Package?
14:46:18 <jjmcd> docs/tools
14:46:48 <jjmcd> kind of an unlikely place for docs tools
14:46:53 <Sparks> heh
14:47:05 <Sparks> jjmcd: Is there documentation on the tools that make the documentation?
14:47:15 <randomuser`> jjmcd, the bulk of that is converting from wiki to docbook, correct?
14:47:27 <jjmcd> Well
14:47:44 <jjmcd> The wiki to docbook conversion is python-something
14:47:49 <jjmcd> I'll need to look that up
14:48:03 <jjmcd> there is the packaging app because there is some complexity there
14:48:12 <jjmcd> and there is the thing that makes tech notes
14:48:43 <jjmcd> ianweller mercifully resurrected the wiki conversion app
14:48:57 * randomuser` nods
14:49:33 <jjmcd> Really, the bulk of the work is recruiting and herding beat writers
14:49:51 <randomuser`> do we have a freeze on the wiki source for the RNs at some point? I noticed other groups like to use their pertinent wiki page
14:50:12 <sgordon> usually once the marker for XML is updated
14:50:14 <jjmcd> Yes we do, although frequently we allow exeptions
14:50:42 <Sparks> Perhaps we can move this discussion to #fedora-docs in a minute?
14:50:49 <jjmcd> App developers always remember important stuff after the RNs are almost done
14:51:06 <sgordon> yeah
14:51:22 <sgordon> with some of them like xorg it is fairly easy to track down someone who knows everything that has changed
14:51:26 <Sparks> Okay, does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss before we close?
14:51:30 <sgordon> but broader categories are harder
14:51:49 <randomuser`> Sparks, +1 - i'm just asking for my reference, i couldn't even carry jjmcd's shoes
14:52:23 <Sparks> randomuser`: No worries.  We should corner jjmcd in #fedora-docs and record the conversation there and get as much information out of him as we can.
14:52:33 <jjmcd> randomuser`, it really isn't that tough - just keeping after the sked
14:52:40 * Sparks finds a bright light to shine on jjmcd
14:53:16 <jjmcd> Sparks, an awful lot of what I need to do in Aug/Sep is in Publican.  Wanna write a buncha stuff?
14:53:58 <Sparks> heh
14:54:13 <Sparks> jjmcd: You speak as if I have a lot of extra time.
14:54:26 <jjmcd> ExPlan, MSEL, EEG and Player Guide for SET
14:54:59 <jjmcd> Yeah, but you're the only guy here who even knows what I'm talking about
14:56:49 <Sparks> jjmcd: heh
14:56:52 <Sparks> Okay, anything else?
14:57:29 <lnovich1> nope
14:57:40 <Sparks> Okay, thanks everyone for coming out and participating!  Drinks and snacks will be served in #fedora-docs immediately following the meeting.
14:57:43 <Sparks> #endmeeting