14:02:43 <randomuser> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
14:02:43 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Oct  7 14:02:43 2013 UTC.  The chair is randomuser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:02:43 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:02:43 <randomuser> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:02:43 <randomuser> #topic Roll Call
14:02:43 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:02:48 * Capesteve waves
14:02:51 <pbokoc> 
14:03:04 * jjmcd 
14:03:42 * randomuser is mostly here
14:03:58 * yruseva yep
14:04:05 * lnovich here!
14:04:15 * iWelcome here
14:05:43 <randomuser> I don't think we have any action items, so
14:05:51 <randomuser> #topic Release Notes - Changes
14:06:22 <randomuser> I started plowing through the Changes over the weekend, and I see pbokoc grabbed some too
14:06:51 <lnovich> I will be able to get to my changes this week or next if that is not too late
14:07:00 <pbokoc> randomuser, yeah. Btw, I noticed you added unversioned docdirs into the installer - are you sure it belongs there?
14:07:11 <pbokoc> not that I have a better place to put it in
14:07:14 <randomuser> #link http://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-20/f-20-docs-tasks.html
14:07:42 <randomuser> pbokoc, lol, I added some things to other beats before I noticed you put them into installer :)
14:07:54 <randomuser> honestly, i just couldn't think of a better place
14:08:43 <randomuser> Things will probably get moved when converted to docbook
14:08:46 <pbokoc> randomuser, well, that's actually something I wanted to ask earlier - is it OK to have one feature in multiple places? For example, sendmail not being installed by default fits into both Installer and Mail Servers
14:09:03 <randomuser> jjmcd, ^^?
14:09:09 <jjmcd> <XREF>
14:09:21 <randomuser> ack
14:09:29 <jjmcd> Place a note in one place with an xref to the other
14:09:33 <pbokoc> allright
14:10:33 <jjmcd> With something this important I would put in a warning or at least a note
14:10:37 <randomuser> pbokoc, is that what you were pinging about on friday?
14:10:45 <pbokoc> randomuser, yeah, that's it
14:11:33 <randomuser> pbokoc, i spent a couple hours reading devel threads and such, looking for hints on how a regular user is able to view their own log output via journalctl
14:11:57 <randomuser> i think we just need to advise them to redirect output to file or pipe, or put sendmail back if they want that
14:13:23 * pbokoc thinks
14:14:02 <randomuser> well, if anyone comes up with something...
14:14:13 <pbokoc> randomuser, do you mean in the install guide, or just a short note in the release notes? Because it doesn't fit into either, honestly
14:14:18 <randomuser> i might try pinging mattdm
14:15:03 <randomuser> pbokoc, a normal user has no way to get STDOUT/STDERR because crond does not run as a normal user
14:15:32 <randomuser> im thinking for the release notes, i anticipate this to be a much asked question
14:16:19 <randomuser> we don't need to dwell on it now
14:16:34 <pbokoc> yeah, that's probably true
14:16:50 <randomuser> #info beats on the wiki are closed, according to the schedule. Further work should be done in git.
14:17:20 <randomuser> #info Please commit and push *often*
14:18:02 <randomuser> lnovich, will you have time for the virt beats in the next few days?
14:19:27 <lnovich> time is a rare commodity that i haven't been able to invest in
14:19:46 <lnovich> when do you need the beat done?
14:20:19 <randomuser> lnovich, if it isn't done by, oh, thursday or friday i'll probably do it myself
14:20:33 <lnovich> ok I will fit it in
14:20:33 <randomuser> it just won't be as good
14:20:43 <randomuser> thanks!
14:20:46 <lnovich> there are 4 issues i know about
14:21:09 <lnovich> i mean features
14:21:09 <lnovich> the others I may not be able to get on time
14:21:40 <randomuser> we have some time before the release, but the translators need to work on this too
14:21:45 <lnovich> one is currently under debate on if it will get in or not
14:21:54 <randomuser> oh? which one?
14:22:03 <lnovich> hyperv enlightenment
14:22:18 <randomuser> hmm.. i wasn't aware of that
14:22:39 <randomuser> is there a Change page?
14:22:51 <lnovich> never mind it is how to word it that is being debated
14:23:49 <randomuser> well, i'm sure whatever wording you come up with will be fine
14:24:16 <lnovich> yup - i will grab Cole from the KVM team and get him to give me something tomorrow
14:24:47 <lnovich> Will you be available on thursday to walk me through the process if I am having difficulty?
14:24:55 <lnovich> randomuser? ^^
14:25:09 <lnovich> as this will be my first beat
14:25:09 <randomuser> don't make him polish it too much - it seems to discourage participation of it feels like the dev is doing the writing instead of us
14:25:28 <lnovich> don't worry - I do the polishing
14:25:42 <randomuser> lnovich, during some of the day, probably
14:25:53 <lnovich> Cole gives me coal and I make the diamond
14:26:00 <randomuser> if nobody is in -docs you can email me, I carry that during the day
14:26:03 <iWelcome> +1
14:26:28 <lnovich> great! - ok I will get something together tomorrow / Wed
14:26:33 <randomuser> thanks
14:26:58 <lnovich> do we worry about QEMU or Libvirt ?
14:27:02 <randomuser> yes
14:27:17 <lnovich> ok I can easily get libvirt - QEMU will take some digging
14:28:32 <randomuser> any other RN questions we should cover?
14:28:52 <pbokoc> randomuser, yeah: do we each move our own beats from the wiki to git, or does someone do that centrally?
14:29:31 <randomuser> pbokoc, The last release or two i did it all and Capesteve reviewed it; I would not object to help
14:29:50 <jjmcd> Ruth Suhle has some good QEMU stuff in her blog
14:30:00 <pbokoc> randomuser, ok, I can help. Let's talk later about splitting it.
14:30:09 <Capesteve> Capesteve can read faster than he can type
14:30:10 <randomuser> pbokoc, cool, thanks
14:30:56 <randomuser> pbokoc, the beats table has tracking fields for that, but wiki tables are a pain IMO
14:31:22 <pbokoc> yeah, they are
14:31:23 <lnovich> maybe we need a new tool?
14:31:52 <randomuser> lnovich, a new tool would be nice, and someone to find it, deploy it, maintain it
14:32:35 <lnovich> what about trello?
14:32:51 <jjmcd> At least you only need to change a couple chars per beat in the ugly table
14:33:35 <pbokoc> ^ what he said. I don't think the time investment for switching to a completely different tool is worth it for the 30 or so rows we have to go through every 6 months
14:34:19 <randomuser> agreed; although that doesn't prevent anyone from investigating
14:34:30 * randomuser won't object to someone else doing the work
14:34:36 <pbokoc> hehe
14:34:39 <jjmcd> ;-)
14:35:20 <randomuser> so, on to guides?
14:35:29 <jjmcd> And those 30 or so rowas are spread among all the writers.  *BUT*, a new writer has to get past the learning curve
14:36:47 <lnovich> speaking of noobs, there have been new writers coming in and out - where are they and does anyone need help with their guide ( other than me??)
14:37:06 <randomuser> oh, good point lnovich
14:37:15 <randomuser> let's talk about that, i have been wondering too
14:37:19 <randomuser> #topic new writers
14:38:00 <randomuser> #info new writers ( and old ) can find help from the group
14:38:09 <randomuser> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_mentors
14:39:18 <randomuser> lnovich, i think that it's hard for a new writer to find a place to contribute unless they are very self-motivated
14:39:41 <randomuser> our task suggestion page could probably use some love
14:40:37 <randomuser> and really, this is something that we, as a group, should be putting some concerted effort into
14:41:18 <randomuser> there are introduction mails semi-regularly, but not really new committers
14:43:21 <iWelcome> ........will be great to see at least one introductory session about: "how to use the tools while contributing in the documentation"
14:43:30 <pbokoc> unfortunately the installation guide isn't really something for a new contributor
14:43:40 <randomuser> iWelcome, have you looked at the Documentation Guide?
14:43:51 <iWelcome> yes :)
14:44:29 <randomuser> iWelcome, i haven't looked at it in a while, but if there's something missing I'd be willing to work on it
14:44:30 <lnovich> ah i understand
14:44:41 <randomuser> iWelcome, just speak up
14:44:48 <lnovich> iwelcome - have you ever used docbook before?
14:44:57 <iWelcome> yes I do
14:45:15 <lnovich> ok which tool is causing you difficulty?
14:46:10 <iWelcome> right now nothing, but it takes almost few days to learn the git and all the procedures to submit the patch
14:46:12 <iWelcome> :(
14:46:17 <randomuser> it might be better to hold the tutoring sessions in #fedora-docs
14:46:28 <iWelcome> +1
14:47:23 <randomuser> iWelcome, much of the work done on documentation is complaint-driven - and that's true for the meta-documentation as well
14:48:00 <randomuser> don't be afraid to ask questions, or ask for a howto on a procedure you are unfamiliar with
14:48:30 <lnovich> iwelcome - anytime you see me online - just ask
14:48:37 <iWelcome> randomuser, i am not complaining
14:48:49 <randomuser> iWelcome, my point exactly - you should be!
14:48:53 <iWelcome> lnovich, I will, thanks
14:49:08 <lnovich> i will be taking another look at the documentation guide once F20 goes out
14:49:14 <pbokoc> randomuser, btw, it might be a good idea to add irc nicks into the Mentors page. I know they're on each mentor's user page, but having them all in one place might be more encouraging (or something... :)
14:49:29 <randomuser> good call, pbokoc
14:49:43 <randomuser> #action randomuser to add irc nicks to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_mentors
14:49:55 <iWelcome> +1 pbokoc
14:51:45 <randomuser> the documentation guide has always been a draft thing; working on that might be a good way to get familiar with everything, iWelcome
14:52:04 <randomuser> that's what jjmcd suggested for me, and it worked out ok
14:53:21 <iWelcome> i  understand, but please explain how?
14:54:07 <randomuser> ok, we can go over that after the meeting if you have time
14:54:12 <randomuser> #topic open floor
14:57:41 <randomuser> looks like time to wind this up
14:57:58 <randomuser> thanks for coming all
14:57:59 <jjmcd> So, I assume randomuser is buying the beer for the after-meeting party
14:58:25 <randomuser> beer is *much* cheaper in cz
14:58:31 <jjmcd> :)
14:58:43 <pbokoc> yes, yes it is
14:58:50 <randomuser> pbokoc should do it, he probably has enough for all of us on his person
14:59:03 * randomuser elbow-jabs pbokoc jovially
14:59:32 <pbokoc> I do, but I can also drink all of it myself
14:59:47 <iWelcome> :)
15:00:05 <randomuser> #endmeeting