14:00:11 <randomuser> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
14:00:12 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan  6 14:00:11 2014 UTC.  The chair is randomuser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:12 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:12 <randomuser> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:00:12 <randomuser> #topic Roll Call
14:00:12 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:00:24 * Capesteve waves
14:00:33 <nb> .hellomynameis nb
14:00:35 <zodbot> nb: nb 'Nick Bebout' <nick@bebout.net>
14:00:56 <randomuser> hey nb, don't see you around this time of day often
14:01:05 <nb> not up yet sometimes
14:01:32 <pbokoc> I'm here
14:01:38 <randomuser> it's perilously early here too
14:02:14 * iWelcome here
14:04:24 <randomuser> okay, lets get started then
14:04:34 <randomuser> #topic Follow up on action items
14:04:45 <randomuser> i didn't do anything with my action item
14:04:49 * randomuser hangs head
14:05:01 <randomuser> #action randomuser to clean up his mess with the release notes bugs
14:05:44 <randomuser> #topic new writer check-in
14:06:09 <randomuser> iWelcome, how are things going for you?
14:06:41 <randomuser> any other new writers want to say hello?
14:07:25 <iWelcome> The wiki System Administrator's Guide is updated
14:07:47 <randomuser> iWelcome, how do you mean?
14:07:52 * lnovich here
14:08:41 <randomuser> welcome, lnovich
14:08:48 <lnovich> hi randomuser
14:10:12 <randomuser> iWelcome, we can come back to you when you're ready, or talk in #fedora-docs
14:10:18 <randomuser> #topic Guide status
14:10:38 * lnovich regrets to inform my guide is still "in progress"
14:11:00 <randomuser> #info Guide writers interested in getting help with guides should build todo lists
14:11:09 <randomuser> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Docs_Project_tasks?rd=Docs_Project_tasks
14:12:10 <randomuser> lnovich, do you have a list of libvirt/kvm changes that should be reflected in your guide?
14:12:27 <lnovich> some yes, all no
14:12:38 <randomuser> I've spotted and corrected a few minor things, and have notes to research for others
14:12:55 <lnovich> oh really? can you send me an update?
14:13:11 <randomuser> lnovich, an update is a `git pull` away
14:13:13 <randomuser> :)
14:13:44 <pbokoc> damn randomuser looks like you were really busy over the holidays :)
14:14:00 <randomuser> i've had a bit more free time lately
14:14:09 <lnovich> no i mean instead of me searching though a log file or having to run a diff on a 700 page document, it would be a lot easier if you told me about the changes as I have a whole lot of  content to add and don't want to override it
14:14:34 <iWelcome> +1
14:15:18 <randomuser> lnovich, mostly trivial stuff; update deprecated command syntax, comment out references to rhel/rhev subscriptions, etc
14:15:49 <lnovich> i guess i can run a diff before putting in the new files
14:16:04 <randomuser> oh, you have entire new uncommitted files?
14:16:30 <randomuser> that, uh, makes it difficult to collaborate
14:16:47 <lnovich> so i am trying to figure out how best to do this
14:17:36 <lnovich> we can talk about this later
14:17:45 <randomuser> sure
14:17:56 <lnovich> maybe sparks can shed some ideas
14:19:07 <randomuser> yeah, i'm not sure what your workflow is
14:19:41 <randomuser> jhradilek, Capesteve, whoever: i have branched the system administrator's guide to start coverage on journald/journalctl
14:19:59 <jhradilek> randomuser: Please don't.
14:20:06 <jhradilek> We do have that one written.
14:20:23 <randomuser> !
14:20:48 <Capesteve> I am working hard to get networking material ready for publication. Getting lots of feedback from devs at work, the beta version should therefore be reasonably complete.
14:21:50 <randomuser> jhradilek, I can discard my branch, I suppose; where is the stuff you've written?
14:22:30 <Capesteve> randomuser: We are going to request a new repo for a Networking Guide, then split the Sysadmin Guide
14:23:06 <randomuser> neat
14:23:07 <jhradilek> randomuser: https://access.redhat.com/site/documentation/
14:23:12 <jhradilek> :)
14:23:16 <randomuser> hrmm
14:23:54 <randomuser> again, not conducive to collaboration
14:23:57 * randomuser frowns
14:24:05 <Capesteve> we live to parallel worlds
14:24:15 <Capesteve> in two ^
14:24:44 <Capesteve> so we can do more by sharing stuff from day job
14:25:16 <randomuser> sure, I get that, and I think you guys do great work that we're lucky to have
14:25:45 <lnovich> yes so the question is how to blend these two branches without causing the trees to break
14:26:10 <Capesteve> even though we do lots of work at night, we could never achieve all this without some "sharing"
14:26:15 <randomuser> right
14:26:57 <Capesteve> when possible I do stuff first in Fedora (e.g. chrony )
14:27:43 <randomuser> to a community writer, it's discouraging to work on something only to have your changes overwritten by many hours of parallel work done elsewhere
14:27:58 <randomuser> one feels silly for being redundant
14:28:00 <Capesteve> randomuser: collaboration can take many forms.
14:28:14 <jhradilek> randomuser: I could have told you that this part is being worked on. :)
14:28:25 <lnovich> ok so how can this work? - I have been wondering about this since I started this new version
14:29:30 <randomuser> the problem I see is that with a "develop in the office, publish in the parking lot" workflow - don't read too much into that metaphor - is that it doesn't have much room for community participation
14:29:47 <randomuser> so either your work is invalidated, or the community writer's work is invalidated
14:30:02 <jhradilek> It does.
14:30:04 <Capesteve> Its best to have an agreement in place for any chapter that someone is interested in
14:30:07 <lnovich> and i would not like either to happen
14:30:08 <jhradilek> All you need to do is to ask the maintainer.
14:30:16 <randomuser> so at the end, you guys are left with the burden of maintaining all the guides
14:31:01 <jhradilek> I could have been working on that chapter at night and we would be in the same situation anyway.
14:31:08 <Capesteve> because some chapters I am working on might be receiving lots of developer support and some not so much
14:31:50 <randomuser> I'm not trying to be overly critical, just draw lines around a perceived problem so we can work out a better approach
14:32:03 <lnovich> is there a way that the maintainer has to approve the "patch" before it gets added, just like in code?
14:32:42 <Capesteve> the best thing we can do now. for Fed20, is to publish ASAP and ask for proof readers
14:32:49 <lnovich> rather than anyone being able to publish, anyone can submit a change but only the maintainer publishes
14:33:31 <randomuser> lnovich, we could ask for a change in privileges and have commit access per-guide to a given group or person
14:33:53 <randomuser> but I don't really like that idea
14:34:53 <pbokoc> yeah, that doesn't sound... ideal
14:35:26 <nb> randomuser, yeah, i don't either, thats what we had in the past
14:35:32 <nb> was a separate FAS group for each doc
14:35:36 <Capesteve> my work load would go up a lot if people could change chapter content without me knowing
14:35:58 <randomuser> jhradilek, what about a task list at the aforementioned wiki page, with something like "Update networking section of sysadmin guide: Assigned to Capesteve, working in private branch"
14:36:09 <nb> randomuser, I suppose i could make docs-redhat or something, for the docs that red hat employees maintain as a part of their job
14:36:30 <nb> Capesteve, jhradilek how does that sound?
14:36:35 <nb> then only you all could push patches?
14:36:53 <randomuser> Capesteve, on the other hand, your workload could go down if a lot of people were working to help you update the content
14:37:53 * nb is not sure if that is what we want, but it wouldn't be hard to set up
14:37:59 <pbokoc> nb, that wouldn't really work since most of Fedora guides are based on Red Hat docs. It would only leave very few guides for other contributors, and it would look like Red Hat is usurping all the docs from the community...
14:38:11 <nb> oh ok
14:38:38 <iWelcome> :)
14:38:54 <pbokoc> I'd say this would be easily solved if everyone just asked the maintainer first, before working on anything
14:38:55 <iWelcome> +1 pbokoc
14:39:04 <jhradilek> I don't really see any problem... If you want to contribute to a book, it is always recommended to contact the book maintainer and ask.
14:39:17 <lnovich> i think the problem is solved if the wokflow changes I know at the moment when i do RH docs I don't put the content into Fedora git until i am building the fedora docs and then what usually gets done is I take my RH branch and clone it into Fedora and then change the product name and such manually. If I were to make these changes simultaneously it would make less of an issue
14:39:19 <jhradilek> pbokoc: Get out of my head. :)
14:39:55 <nb> pbokoc, true
14:41:03 <iWelcome> asking is always a idea if the guide exists
14:41:24 <lnovich> if it doesn't feel free to make one iwelcome!
14:42:29 <randomuser> I don't think this is a problem between us; I know I probably should have talked to jhradilek before starting something
14:43:04 <iWelcome> lnovich, i am new here to understand how to do things
14:43:52 <randomuser> but for $someguy looking for something to do, it's very discouraging to see guides that should be updated, and are being updated, but not visibly
14:43:58 <Capesteve> randomuser: we certainly appreciate the valuable work you do.
14:43:58 <lnovich> from my experience the sooner you jump in the pool the sooner you learn to swim - and trust me with the help available here you cannot drown
14:44:06 <pbokoc> anyway, where's the documentation guide anyway?
14:44:32 <iWelcome> +1 lnovich
14:44:33 * pbokoc should stop editing his messages
14:44:46 <randomuser> aww, thanks Capesteve :)
14:45:14 <Capesteve> randomuser: so we (guide owners) need to update tasks, a ToDo list then?
14:45:47 <randomuser> if you're going to work outside, I think you should at least stake off your claim
14:46:35 <randomuser> but if the workflow is to work on the complete doc outside of fedora git, and dump the finished product into fedora git, i'm not sure what the best course it
14:46:41 <randomuser> is$
14:47:06 <lnovich> which is why i am questioning my current workflow
14:47:17 <Capesteve> randomuser: My workflow depends on time, if I can, I do it in Fedora first
14:47:25 <lnovich> as I am not sure how to maintain the two guides
14:48:12 <Capesteve> randomuser: chrony, ntpd, ...both lots of commits
14:48:41 <randomuser> hmm
14:49:00 <Capesteve> but some things are polished first, then added as almost complete
14:49:19 <randomuser> would it help if we built in more entities and conditionals, so that content could be more easily shared?
14:51:00 <lnovich> entities = horror for the translation team
14:51:18 * randomuser shrugs
14:51:21 <lnovich> i asked about this a long way back
14:51:29 <lnovich> and i was told not to use them
14:51:49 <pbokoc> conditionals are horror for everyone, honestly :)
14:52:02 <randomuser> yeah, they don't look fun to maintain
14:52:09 <randomuser> we've probably spent enough time on this
14:52:10 <pbokoc> I can see how they would help, but... I'd have to rework the entire Install Guide, essentially
14:52:33 * nb hopes we can talk about the FAD
14:52:36 <nb> today
14:52:46 <randomuser> #topic DocsFAD2014
14:52:47 <lnovich> yes please change the topic!!
14:52:49 <randomuser> yay!
14:52:58 <randomuser> Sparks, any FAD news?
14:53:07 <randomuser> can we pick a date yet?
14:53:24 * nb is unsure if Sparks is here?
14:54:22 <randomuser> As currently planned, Sparks was going to attempt to procure funding and meeting space
14:54:30 <randomuser> He seemed optimistic
14:54:41 <lnovich> do we have a date?
14:54:44 <nb> funding should be ok, AFAIK Fedora is underbudget at current
14:55:06 <nb> and i think rbergeron or ruth said it should be ok
14:55:09 <randomuser> we do *not* currently have a date
14:55:10 <nb> date and space, idk
14:55:56 <randomuser> it looks like the 3rd or 4th weekend in feb or 1st or 2nd weekend of march right now
14:55:59 <randomuser> #info it looks like the 3rd or 4th weekend in feb or 1st or 2nd weekend of march right now
14:56:35 <randomuser> #info if you have an opinion on the date beyond the whenisgood pool that came up with the above window, use the mailing list!
14:57:35 <randomuser> i think most that might attend have reported in and would attend whenever but I don't want to choose a date until we can confirm the rest
14:58:25 <randomuser> #link http://whenisgood.net/docsfad2014
14:58:39 <lnovich> how can i help w/the Brno side of things? Although I am not located there I am at least in the timezone and can talk to whoever is necessary
14:58:39 <randomuser> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_FAD_2014
14:59:59 <pbokoc> jhradilek, ^
15:00:04 <nb> lnovich, i guess someone will need to arrange a meeting space in brno, and appropriate equipment?
15:00:12 <nb> we were talking about having like a videoconference or something i think/
15:00:23 <lnovich> ok sounds like a plan
15:00:32 * nb wonders who is planning on coming to RDU and who is coming to Brno
15:00:35 <randomuser> i think jhradilek is on top of that
15:00:38 <nb> oh ok
15:00:57 <Capesteve> jhradilek: has stepped out for food
15:01:04 <randomuser> our time slot is up, let's continue in #fedora-docs
15:01:14 <randomuser> #endmeeting