14:02:51 <randomuser> #startmeeting Fedora Docs
14:02:51 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jun 30 14:02:51 2014 UTC.  The chair is randomuser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:02:51 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:02:52 <randomuser> err
14:03:02 <randomuser> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:03:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:03:14 <randomuser> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Standing_Agenda
14:03:16 * pbokoc 
14:03:37 <randomuser> Today's discussion will also feature a bit about wiki cleanup
14:04:23 * rkratky is here
14:05:59 * jjmcd 
14:06:50 <randomuser> #topic New Writers
14:07:00 <randomuser> any new writers here today?
14:07:15 <randomuser> or, has anyone been talking to new writers ?
14:07:44 <pbokoc> waaaait for it
14:07:50 * zoglesby is here late
14:08:00 <bara_> hi all, I'm a new here :) My name is Bara and I'm from Czech Republic
14:08:44 <pbokoc> yeah, Bara has been working for Red Hat for ~2 years now, she's been helping me with the RHEL Installation Guide
14:08:53 <rkratky> bara_, hi!
14:09:09 <randomuser> welcome, bara_ !
14:09:46 <randomuser> The installation guide is a daunting piece of work; you must be well seasoned by now
14:10:14 <pbokoc> 59 commits!
14:10:29 * randomuser whistles appreciatively
14:11:02 <bara_> However, I mainly contribute to SELinux guide :)
14:11:49 * lnovich runs into the meeitng  - sorry I am late
14:14:42 <randomuser> I see you found #fedora-docs bara_ - don't hesitate to reach out there or on the mailing list if there's anything we can do fedora-wise for you
14:15:19 <randomuser> like sponsoring you for docs-commits if jhralidek hasn't done so already
14:15:46 <randomuser> ahem... jhradilek
14:15:53 <bara_> randomuser thank you, I will. In fact jhradilek already done so
14:16:00 <randomuser> great
14:16:11 <randomuser> Okay, let's talk about release notes
14:16:21 <randomuser> #topic Release Notes / Beats
14:16:24 <lnovich> and if there is anything you need help wise you have a very captive audience
14:16:58 <rkratky> randomuser, OT newbie question: could you add me (and perhaps bara_ too) to the list of nicks that get pinged by the pingdocs command?
14:17:15 <bara_> thank you all for the warm welcome
14:17:20 <randomuser> rkratky, no, but i believe instructions for that are in the topic of #fedora-docs
14:17:35 <randomuser> So, i was thinking about restructuring beats
14:17:48 <lnovich> a new drummer?
14:17:51 <pbokoc> I'm all ears
14:17:53 <rkratky> randomuser, aha, ty
14:17:55 <randomuser> at least partially
14:18:22 <randomuser> to focus more on venue than topic, ie have a "Changes" beat, a new packages beat, etc
14:18:27 <randomuser> any thoughts?
14:18:33 <jjmcd> Prolly needs a re-think. Many beats have had no input for many releases
14:19:07 <jjmcd> Might be hard to make granular enough so someone could find something
14:19:12 <randomuser> for that matter, we could have have beats for various SIGs
14:19:13 <lnovich> a suggestion - open a wiki page w/the new layout?
14:19:26 <zoglesby> jjmcd: I agree
14:19:37 <jjmcd> Changes, New and then what?  Two big piles of data could be hard to navigate
14:19:47 <randomuser> jjmcd, true - but I'm not envisioning that the beats structure would need to be reflected in the RNs
14:20:22 <jjmcd> OK. Think we could smoehow draw more writers?
14:20:23 <randomuser> there's also specific packages or package sets that should *always* get attention that could have a dedicated beat
14:20:28 <randomuser> ie systemd
14:20:31 <lnovich> what exactly are we restructuring? beat content or organization
14:21:03 <randomuser> jjmcd, if we had, say, an Astronomy beat - someone in the astronomy SIG might pick it up
14:21:13 <randomuser> because it would be obvious where their info should go
14:21:40 <lnovich> and will the same content / organization restructuring would it also carry over to the different next pieces?
14:21:59 <randomuser> lnovich, the new products already have a dedicated beat
14:22:19 <lnovich> ok and i am assuming they each have a dedicated RN?
14:22:30 <jjmcd> We have a lot of territory in the Scientific beat and not contributors.  But breaking it into specialties might help
14:22:50 <randomuser> lnovich, no, they will all be represented in the one release notes document
14:23:09 <lnovich> with different sections?
14:23:22 <randomuser> if in the future, the release schedule becomes different for each, we'll have to reconsider
14:23:46 <randomuser> lnovich, i'm thinking a section to explain what the products are, the rest would be universally applicable
14:23:59 <lnovich> ok sounds correct
14:24:33 <jjmcd> I wonder whether  release notes might not be reasonable.  Plenty of duplicate content but from the user perspective, might be preferable
14:24:48 <jjmcd> whether 3 release notes - 3 button sticks
14:25:43 <randomuser> jjmcd, let's see how much content we have in a while and decide if it merits that?
14:25:53 <jjmcd> makes sense
14:26:21 <randomuser> i think separate docs would be ideal, but if it's just a one-pager there's minimal benefit
14:26:34 <lnovich> the duplicate content - especially if written by different writers will make for a maitnenence nightmare
14:26:55 <randomuser> we could do different .cfgs in the RNs repo
14:27:00 <jjmcd> Well, since the packages are the same, the release notes from each package could be identical XML
14:27:04 <randomuser> and manage includes properly
14:27:31 <lnovich> i wonder if we can use conditions and just publish different content from a single XML source
14:27:42 <randomuser> yeah, that
14:27:47 <jjmcd> yeah, that sounds reasonable
14:27:50 <lnovich> or will translation team have a canary
14:27:56 <jjmcd> ;)
14:28:02 <lnovich> and a cow
14:28:11 <randomuser> lnovich, nah, if it's *identical* content the translation memory will do all the work
14:28:32 <jjmcd> Yup - the PO's are per XML so if its all includes ...
14:28:35 <randomuser> #action randomuser to draft beats restructuring proposal
14:28:49 <lnovich> ok then i think a single XML source with conditional text (someone will have to show me how to do it) is optimal
14:29:18 <randomuser> #info we think separate documents (all built from release-notes.git) for each product are a good idea, will revisit when more content is available
14:29:39 <lnovich> first things first what content is missing?
14:29:41 <randomuser> lnovich, you can look at how the installation guide / installation quick start guide does it
14:29:47 <randomuser> lnovich, all possible content is missing
14:29:50 <lnovich> ok will do
14:30:01 <lnovich> do you have that link to who is taking what beat?
14:30:11 <randomuser> we still need to write about basically everything
14:30:25 <pbokoc> lnovich, should be here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation_beats
14:30:27 <lnovich> I can do the virtualization content
14:30:33 <randomuser> sorry, which beat?
14:31:35 <lnovich> i see my name is already there
14:31:39 <randomuser> http://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-21/f-21-docs-tree-tasks.html
14:31:46 <randomuser> lnovich, yeah, from last cycle
14:32:22 <randomuser> jjmcd, i still need to play with your schedule, too
14:32:32 <lnovich> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Virtualization_Beat this one
14:32:50 <lnovich> i'll take it again - please don't tell me you need it yesterday
14:33:01 <randomuser> sure
14:33:11 <randomuser> IMO the best approach is to work on it incrementally
14:33:14 <pbokoc> well, we have a month till alpha release notes, if I'm looking at the schedule right
14:33:23 <lnovich> when do you need it for ?
14:33:26 <pbokoc> 2014-07-28
14:33:26 <randomuser> I have a tendency to think "oh, it's a big thing, i need a big block of time"
14:33:43 <randomuser> then I never have a big block of time until the pressure is on
14:34:16 <randomuser> so I've been trying to do ~20m or so at a time
14:34:39 <lnovich> sounds like a plan (unless you are already over-comitted)
14:34:51 <randomuser> heh
14:34:58 <randomuser> well, we all have to prioritize :)
14:35:13 <pbokoc> yeah, exactly. You can spend time with your family when you're retired
14:35:20 <randomuser> I'll send something to the list when that thing about restructuring is drafted
14:35:34 <lnovich> ok good idea
14:35:41 <randomuser> and we can discuss any other RNs stuff there too
14:35:47 <randomuser> for now, let's move on to:
14:35:57 <randomuser> #topic publican and publishing
14:36:07 <randomuser> rkratky, any revelations?
14:36:29 <rkratky> well, i think i kinda got the hang of it
14:36:47 <lnovich> that's great!
14:36:54 <rkratky> i'm not saying i understand all of it but enough to style it
14:37:09 <rkratky> http://rkratky.fedorapeople.org/docsweb/mockup/en-US/index.html
14:37:13 <lnovich> what questions do you have?
14:37:33 <randomuser> hheyyy! that's nice
14:37:47 <rkratky> i had to put it elsewhere cos the html files on the staging site are borked...
14:38:16 <randomuser> rkratky, that's probably my fault :(
14:38:27 <rkratky> randomuser, well, i need s/o to tell me what it should look like
14:38:36 <lnovich> i like the banner - what will go in it?
14:38:38 <randomuser> s/o ?
14:38:51 <rkratky> sorry, someone
14:39:25 <lnovich> first of all it needs to work  then we can work on asthetics
14:39:55 <rkratky> i now know what needs to be tweaked to get it looking the way i want to, but i'm not a design person...
14:39:56 <randomuser> rkratky, what needs to be fixed with the html on the staging site?
14:40:19 <rkratky> randomuser, it doesn't call the indiv. css files properly
14:40:42 <randomuser> rkratky, is it something we can fix in the brand?
14:41:22 <rkratky> randomuser, i'm not sure. se, for example, https://admin.fedoraproject.org/docs-backend//en-US/index.html
14:41:29 <rkratky> ...see...
14:42:01 <rkratky> the main content isn't styled. the css is not loaded,though it's there
14:42:23 <randomuser> ah
14:42:27 <rkratky> i know how to fix it, but i've no idea what html file gets generated where
14:42:42 <randomuser> rkratky, let's talk about it in #fedora-docs sometime soon
14:42:48 <rkratky> randomuser, ok
14:43:12 <randomuser> there are a few different packages involved in that frontend
14:43:27 * randomuser checks agenda
14:43:55 <randomuser> we gave .next a little attention re:RNs, but I don't have anything product-specific to cover today
14:44:02 <randomuser> zoglesby, do you, or should we skip the topic?
14:44:07 <randomuser> or jsmith ?
14:44:18 <zoglesby> I have nothing
14:44:46 <randomuser> okay
14:44:50 <randomuser> #topic Guide Status
14:45:05 <randomuser> so, we have these books that we write about Fedora
14:45:16 <randomuser> hmm
14:45:48 <lnovich> something wrong?
14:46:04 <randomuser> does anyone talk to jacquelynn east? perhaps about https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=904083
14:46:16 <lnovich> yes i will speak w/her tomorrow
14:46:23 <randomuser> ok, cool
14:47:02 <randomuser> lnovich, i would at least like to know if we can work on that without ruining any plans she may have for it
14:47:37 <randomuser> peripherally, i think it's strange to have a Fedora doc assigned between RH employees I've never heard from or talked to
14:47:40 <lnovich> not sure what attention she will be able to give it, but i can try to coax her to give it some time
14:47:50 <randomuser> ...and then not have it worked on
14:47:56 <lnovich> she is in BNE
14:48:05 <lnovich> Brisbane, Australia
14:48:10 * randomuser nods
14:48:35 <randomuser> she doesn't have to actively work on the copy to talk to us
14:48:38 <lnovich> so attending this meeing is hard - as it starts at midnight
14:48:59 <randomuser> bugzilla and the mailing list are open 24/7
14:49:01 <lnovich> if we want the auzzies to come we would have to change the meeitng
14:49:12 <lnovich> i'll ask her to please take a look
14:49:25 <randomuser> thanks
14:49:28 <lnovich> that is all I can do - as I am not her manager
14:49:49 <randomuser> I'm not aware of anyone's manager mandating they work on Fedora Docs :)
14:50:03 <lnovich> no but it would be nice ....
14:50:20 <pbokoc> jhradilek totally made me join!
14:50:26 <randomuser> heh
14:50:55 * randomuser adds another tally to the 'beers I owe jhradilek' count
14:51:04 <rkratky> yeah, i totally made jhradilek let me join
14:51:25 <lnovich> but i have been thinking of doing a respin of the fedora docs meeitng at another time so that the APAC area can join in - and run 2 meetings a week
14:51:48 <randomuser> i would be interested to see if that worked
14:52:04 <lnovich> if we don't try it we won't know now will we
14:52:19 <randomuser> well, we could make inferences based on past experience
14:52:31 <lnovich> that is something I don't have
14:52:57 <randomuser> lnovich, i'd suggest raising the question on the list and seeing what response you get
14:52:59 <lnovich> but we can discuss that later
14:53:07 <lnovich> sure - shall do
14:53:40 <randomuser> cool
14:54:02 <randomuser> #action lnovich to start discussion on APAC-accessible meeting time on list
14:54:14 <randomuser> #action lnovich to reach out to jeast re: storage guide
14:54:39 <randomuser> five minutes left - any other guide stuff?
14:55:07 <lnovich> none from me - hoping to get a new updated version out soon
14:55:43 <lnovich> where soon = sometime before or during Flock (if I can go)
14:55:46 <randomuser> #info randomuser would like help with the multiboot guide
14:56:49 <randomuser> #topic open floor
14:56:57 <randomuser> zoglesby, what am I forgetting?
14:57:12 <randomuser> oh, the wiki thing
14:57:33 <randomuser> I'm going to try writing a bot to patrol for old pages and do something about them
14:58:14 <randomuser> Sparks started a discussion about that $something on the list
14:59:25 <lnovich> who from the list is going to Flock?
15:00:11 <zoglesby> randomuser: do it!
15:01:10 <roshi> you guys about done randomuser? QA meeting is next on the docket :)
15:01:20 <jjmcd> lnovich, considering it.  What is the date?
15:01:29 <lnovich> aug 6-9
15:01:31 <roshi> sorry I couldn't make the meeting, had a conflict :-/
15:01:42 <randomuser> #endmeeting