17:01:05 <t8m> #startmeeting FESCO (2012-09-19)
17:01:05 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 19 17:01:05 2012 UTC.  The chair is t8m. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:01:05 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:01:13 <t8m> #meetingname fesco
17:01:13 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
17:01:20 <t8m> #chair notting nirik mjg59 mmaslano t8m pjones mitr limburgher jwb
17:01:20 <zodbot> Current chairs: jwb limburgher mitr mjg59 mmaslano nirik notting pjones t8m
17:01:27 <t8m> #topic init process
17:01:30 <pjones> hello
17:01:31 * nirik is here.
17:01:34 <mmaslano> hi
17:01:37 <t8m> hello
17:01:41 <mitr> Hello all
17:02:37 * limburgher here
17:03:07 <t8m> jwb, mjg59, around?
17:03:38 <jwb> here
17:03:53 <t8m> will notting attend?
17:04:15 <limburgher> I don't think so.
17:04:43 <t8m> anyway we can start as we have the quorum
17:05:03 <mitr> t8m: not based on ticket #951
17:05:05 <t8m> #topic 932 F18 Features - progress at Feature Freeze
17:05:19 <t8m> .fesco 932
17:05:22 <zodbot> t8m: #932 (F18 Features - progress at Feature Freeze) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/932
17:06:13 <nirik> not really much in the way of updates that I see.
17:06:17 <t8m> I just added this to the list of topics if anybody wants to discuss any feature.
17:06:25 * nirik nods.
17:06:39 <t8m> If nobody speaks up we can move on
17:06:48 <nirik> we should probibly try and get people to update now that alpha is out and things are flowing into the tree more quickly.
17:07:03 <t8m> yep
17:07:08 <jwb> did the 9/26 date move out?
17:07:13 <jwb> because of the multiple slips?
17:07:23 <mitr> I think so
17:07:37 <jwb> should probably update the ticket with whatever that new date is.  i'll find out
17:07:41 <mitr> 1 week before "features 100% complete" is oct 2
17:07:42 <limburgher> Thanks
17:07:53 <jwb> thanks mitr
17:08:12 <nirik> so our oct 3 meeting then?
17:08:18 <pjones> yeah
17:08:46 <t8m> #info As the F18 updates are not frozen anymore after the Alpha release, please finish your incomplete features soon.
17:08:48 <mitr> Leaving the deadline at oct 2 is better - that gives us at least 1 day to review tem all :)
17:09:07 <t8m> mitr, +1
17:09:19 <mmaslano> yes, +1
17:09:30 <jwb> i already did that in the ticket
17:09:47 <t8m> OK anything else?
17:10:15 <limburgher> +1
17:10:18 <t8m> moving on
17:10:29 <t8m> #topic 940 The tmp-on-tmpfs feature should be disabled by default
17:10:35 <t8m> .fesco 940
17:10:38 <zodbot> t8m: #940 (The tmp-on-tmpfs feature should be disabled by default) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/940
17:10:58 <limburgher> Discussion here has been. . .warm.
17:11:22 <t8m> Again I've added this to the agenda if someone was persuaded to change his stance by the recent activity in the ticket.
17:11:30 <nirik> yeah. I suspect reality is somewhere between the two extremes...
17:11:51 <limburgher> Indeed.  No change here.
17:13:14 <nirik> so, I'm not sure how to come to a nice medium here... the default has to be one way or another.
17:13:31 <nirik> where were we at vote wise?
17:13:45 <jwb> keep it unless testing shows numerous problems
17:13:48 <t8m> nirik, I think me, mitr, mmaslano would vote for revert
17:13:56 <t8m> nirik, the rest to keep it?
17:14:05 <poettering> honestly
17:14:07 <limburgher> I think that's about right.
17:14:12 * nirik nods.
17:14:13 <poettering> the least we should do is keep it until the beta
17:14:15 <poettering> it's easy to revert
17:14:16 <nanonyme> how hard is it to enable it yourself?
17:14:20 <poettering> and the bugs should be fixed anyway
17:14:21 <limburgher> dead simple
17:14:25 <poettering> it's way to early to revert this now
17:14:27 <nirik> and also disable. ;)
17:14:35 <limburgher> i did so on f17 laptop when this got interesting.
17:14:40 <limburgher> no issues to date.
17:14:41 <pjones> t8m: yeah, that sounds right
17:14:44 <limburgher> +1 anecdote
17:15:02 <rwmjones> limburgher: that's unfair because the case where this really hurts is with limited memory VMs
17:15:07 <nanonyme> I'm fine either way then. I personally want access to this feature but no biggie if I have to manually enable it
17:15:12 <rwmjones> (assuming your laptop doesn't have 512 MB RAM)
17:15:15 <nirik> is there some way we can default it to off in vms?
17:15:25 <poettering> so, please do net revert this right now, if you make the decision then please wait until the beta, but there is really no point in reverting this now before we have any serious bug reports coming in
17:15:28 <limburgher> rwmjones: I wasn't using it as an argument, merely a data point.
17:15:35 <rwmjones> how about comment 28?
17:15:35 <limburgher> nirik: kickstart. :)
17:15:47 <rwmjones> that's a data point -- thousands of potential bugs
17:15:47 <pjones> rwmjones: while I'm sympathetic to that, it's still very easy to disable in that case.
17:16:08 <poettering> nirik: yes, that would be asy, we could add a ConditionVirtualization= to the unit. But honestly, I think we totally want this in a VM too
17:16:33 <nirik> rwmjones: so, all those things write unbounded tmp files... isn't that also a problem on disk /tmp ? just less so?
17:16:41 <t8m> rwmjones, I completely agree with you, unfortunately it did not persuaded anyone from FESCo to change his stance
17:16:47 <mitr> pjones: Given the lack of progress on fixing the bugs so far, I'm not very optimistic.  Based on comment#28, it would take ~2.5 man-months to only check all packages for issues
17:17:00 <rwmjones> /tmp on disk is normally far larger
17:17:18 <pjones> mitr: honestly I don't really agree with the /assessment/ of the bugs listed in comment#28
17:17:23 <rwmjones> and there's a case that if your program really needs gbs of data, then you have to have enough disk space for it
17:17:24 <mitr> nirik: Arguably runinng out of RAM is much harder to recover from than running out of disk space (and disk space has something reserved for root)
17:17:38 <t8m> rwmjones, +1
17:17:49 <mitr> pjones: We can argue about that for hours, sure.  But the two man-months is a minimum to get any results.
17:17:51 <t8m> mitr, +1
17:18:05 <poettering> mitr: you don't run out of RAM, you'll first hit the tmpfs size limit as configured in the mountoptions
17:18:08 <nanonyme> mitr, I thought tmpfs was limited so it can't use all your ram anyway
17:18:12 <mitr> However, unless there is a radical change in view here...
17:18:24 <mitr> proposal: Table this until the originally scheduled revisit date.
17:18:31 <mmaslano> I agree
17:18:31 <t8m> mitr, +1
17:18:32 <nanonyme> admittedly the overall impact could be running out :)
17:18:37 <limburgher> mitr: +1
17:18:38 <nirik> yep.
17:18:51 <t8m> moving on
17:19:01 <t8m> #topic 951 Co-maintainership of Chitlesh's Fedora packages maintainer issue
17:19:08 <t8m> .fesco 951
17:19:10 <zodbot> t8m: #951 (Co-maintainership of Chitlesh's Fedora packages) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/951
17:19:24 <jwb> i have no problems with this request
17:19:56 <nirik> I'm ok with it as well, although they are not as idle has perhaps first indicated.
17:20:18 <limburgher> I agree with nirik.
17:20:26 <t8m> I'm ok although this request does not fully follow the nonresponsive maintainer policy
17:20:37 <limburgher> No, but then they're not asking for ownership.
17:20:47 <limburgher> Which is good, Chitlesh has been great in the last.
17:20:52 <limburgher> s/last/past/
17:22:10 <mitr> I'm not 100% happy with the deviation from the policy, but  +1 is the right thing to do here - waiting another 3 weeks would unpleasantly interact with F18 beta schedule
17:22:22 <mitr> s/but/& I think/
17:22:30 <t8m> so If I can count above as voting - that is +5 and with nottings vote in the ticket +6
17:22:38 <limburgher> you can
17:22:40 <limburgher> in my case
17:22:50 <mmaslano> I agree with nirik
17:23:53 <t8m> #agreed  Shakthi Kannan is approved as co-maintainer of Chitlesh Goorah's packages
17:24:03 <pjones> yeah, +1 as well
17:24:15 <t8m> Who can give him this access?
17:24:21 <limburgher> I can.
17:24:35 <limburgher> It's a long list, but I'll get on it ASAP.
17:24:42 <nirik> thanks limburgher
17:24:46 <limburgher> np
17:25:24 <t8m> #action limburgher will add Shakthi Kannan to Chitlesh's packages as comaintainer
17:25:47 <t8m> #topic Next week chair
17:26:03 <t8m> anybody wants to be next week chair?
17:26:14 <mitr> I'm not sure I'll be able to attend
17:26:48 * mmaslano neither
17:26:59 <nirik> I can if no one else is able.
17:27:07 <jwb> i'll chair
17:27:20 * nirik is happy to let jwb do it. ;)
17:27:31 <t8m> #action jwb will chair next week meeting
17:27:46 <t8m> #topic Open Floor
17:27:59 <t8m> Anything for Open Floor?
17:29:55 <limburgher> nope
17:30:16 <t8m> I'll close the meeting in 19:31 then.
17:30:31 <t8m> (UTC+2 timezone :))
17:31:07 <t8m> #endmeeting