18:00:15 <nirik> #startmeeting FESCO (2013-01-02) 18:00:15 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jan 2 18:00:15 2013 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:15 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:16 <nirik> #meetingname fesco 18:00:16 <nirik> #chair abadger1999 jwb mitr mmaslano notting nirik pjones t8m sgallagh 18:00:16 <nirik> #topic init process 18:00:16 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco' 18:00:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 jwb mitr mmaslano nirik notting pjones sgallagh t8m 18:00:24 <pjones> hello. 18:00:36 <Mayanna> hello 18:00:36 <sgallagh> Ciao 18:00:38 <nirik> morning everyone. Hope everybody had a nice holiday. 18:00:40 <jwb> i'm 1/2 here 18:01:07 <Mayanna> who here work as translator in fedora project? 18:01:25 * notting is here now 18:01:50 <pjones> Mayanna: I think you may have chosen the wrong channel for your question. 18:01:52 <nirik> Mayanna: no idea off hand, this is the FESCo meeting... if you have something to bring up, can you wait until the open floor topic at the end? 18:02:00 <mitr> Hello all 18:02:04 <t8m> hello 18:02:44 * nirik counts enough folks to get started. 18:02:51 <Mayanna> ok... no problem 18:02:55 <nirik> #topic #896 Refine Feature process 18:02:55 <nirik> .fesco 896 18:02:55 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/896 18:02:57 <zodbot> nirik: #896 (Refine Feature process) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/896 18:03:18 <nirik> I've not had time to review the templates mitr added... 18:03:33 <jwb> nor i 18:03:45 <Mayanna> thanks, have a happy new year 18:03:46 <t8m> perhaps we should postpone these to next meeting? 18:04:25 <nirik> I'd be fine with that. ;) 18:04:26 <sgallagh> Yes, we probably need time to review the latest proposals 18:04:34 <notting> i'm ok with that 18:04:48 * pjones has a couple of opinions, but can wait since others want to 18:04:50 <nirik> mitr: did you want to talk about the templates/ideas today some? or ? 18:05:17 <mitr> I'm fine with postponing, I did post the templates late. 18:05:22 <mitr> Of course, any comments are welcome anytime 18:05:26 <nirik> sure. 18:05:36 <nirik> #info please do comment on ticket over the next week any ideas/thoughts. 18:05:45 <nirik> #agreed will revisit this next week. 18:05:53 <nirik> #topic #983 Two latexmk packages in Fedora 18:05:53 <nirik> .fesco 983 18:05:53 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/983 18:05:54 <t8m> I think if anybody has concrete proposals to changes/improvements just now he should give them now 18:05:56 <t8m> oops 18:05:57 <zodbot> nirik: #983 (Two latexmk packages in Fedora) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/983 18:06:07 <nirik> t8m: sorry... I can go back if you like... 18:06:14 <t8m> nirik, no problem 18:06:21 <pjones> I think somebody needs to nudge Jindrich here and get him to respond in the bug comments 18:06:40 <nirik> yeah, I don't think we need to take any action here, aside from fostering communication. 18:06:51 <pjones> there may or may not be action fesco needs to take here, but it's certainly not clear from the information there. 18:07:17 <notting> as long as jjames and jnovy can agree on what version of latexmk to ship, i think they should be able to get it sorted themselves 18:07:33 <sgallagh> If they're interchangeable, could we suggest the alternatives method? 18:07:47 <pjones> sgallagh: I think they wind up being a slightly different re-packaging of the same upstream 18:07:51 <mitr> sgallagh: alternatives make the OS more complex... 18:07:55 <pjones> sgallagh: so having them both probably isn't the right answer 18:07:57 <notting> i'd rather just stick to one 18:08:01 <nirik> it sounds to me like jnovy is perfectly happy having the standalone one default. 18:08:08 <notting> unless there is a really compelling reason to have both 18:08:09 <t8m> From the last comment in the ticket it is clear that there is no dispute, just that Jindrich needs to fix the packaging 18:08:13 <sgallagh> If they are the same upstream, then ok 18:08:16 <mitr> Jindrich commented just before the holidays, and it's the first day after the holidays, so I don't think there's too much grounds for FESCo being active in this right now. 18:08:18 <nirik> t8m: yep. I agree. 18:08:43 <sgallagh> It sounds to me like we have a standalone one and a bundled one then, do I have that right? 18:09:13 <pjones> not in the traditional sense of the word "bundled", no. it's not like a bundled library. 18:09:23 <sgallagh> Ok, well if it's sorting itself out, let's let it continue to do so 18:09:36 <nirik> and hey... there's a commit today that sounds like it will fix this. ;) 18:09:44 <t8m> perhaps we could suggest jindrich to not pack the texlive-latexmk at all 18:09:46 <nirik> Subject: [texlive] Sync with CTAN, new BR: cairo; harfbuzz, don't use texlive latexmk; psutils 18:10:08 <t8m> ah that sorts it probably 18:10:10 <nirik> -%package latexmk 18:10:15 <t8m> nice 18:10:20 <sgallagh> \o/ 18:10:26 <nirik> so, proposal: close this as it's been solved by maintainers. 18:10:40 <t8m> yep 18:10:43 <sgallagh> +1 18:10:55 <notting> nirik: +1 18:10:56 <pjones> +1 18:11:00 <jwb> +1 18:11:01 <mitr> +1 18:11:10 <nirik> #agreed close this as it's been solved by maintainers. 18:11:20 <nirik> #topic #963 change of names of configuration files 18:11:20 <nirik> .fesco 963 18:11:20 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/963 18:11:22 <zodbot> nirik: #963 (change of names of configuration files) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/963 18:11:37 <nirik> so, there's a number of packages not yet fixed, but I didn't see anything that critical. 18:11:55 <nirik> Do we want to try and get anything more done before release here? or just leave the rest for updates? 18:12:36 <mitr> nirik: firstboot, gdm, grubby ? 18:12:42 <pjones> if there's nothing install-critical, there's not a great reason not to do it on updates 18:12:44 * nirik re-looks at list 18:12:52 <mitr> Not that I have a practical proposal :( 18:13:39 <nirik> ick. I must have misread it, I thought those were done. ;( 18:14:28 * nirik really hates making any change now. 18:14:53 <notting> gdm appears to only be a change so it picks up a locale change w/o a reboot. it will work fine on reboot 18:14:56 <notting> so, doesn't seem critical 18:15:48 <mitr> firstboot seems to read LANG from sysconfig/i18n on initialization, and will default to en_US.UTF-8 18:16:00 <nirik> that seems bad... 18:16:15 <notting> grubby... might be an issue if it doesn't copy the old command lines. but i think it does 18:16:38 <nirik> it should/does, pjones ? 18:16:56 <pjones> mitr: that grubby bug probably isn't a release blocker; it only hits when --add-dracut-args is used, which kernel.spec doesn't do 18:17:15 <pjones> so normal kernel update path, which is by far the most prevalent user, doesn't hit it. 18:17:45 <mitr> pjones: what about the first installation? 18:17:55 <pjones> grubby isn't used for generating the initial config file. 18:18:03 <mitr> (anyway, does anything above classify as a blocker per the criteria?) 18:18:15 <notting> pjones: if [ -n "$dracut" -o -n "$adddracutargs" ]; then <- wouldn't $dracut be set always? 18:18:27 <pjones> hrm. 18:18:31 <pjones> oh, you may be right. 18:18:31 <pjones> gah. 18:18:33 <nirik> so, firstboot might be an issue... would that result in users getting en_US.UTF-8 from any lang install? 18:18:34 <sgallagh> May I ask a question about how this made it this far? Shouldn't we have just smacked this change down when it landed at beta freeze? 18:18:40 * pjones reads more of the code. 18:18:54 <nirik> sgallagh: we asked kay to just make the changes, but apparently that didn't happen... 18:19:21 <pjones> I think it's still going to get them from the previous kernel, though. 18:19:21 <sgallagh> nirik: Any change that affects this many packages should have been booted to F19 with extreme prejudice 18:19:41 <sgallagh> (If it didn't land by feature freeze) 18:19:50 <mitr> sgallagh: read comment #10, it was a mess 18:20:08 <pjones> notting: so, grubby is invoked there with --copy-default, which merges --args with the args it finds 18:20:30 <nirik> sgallagh: feel free to read the ticket/look at meeting logs. I don't think re-hashing that would be helpfull right now... but do keep it in mind for the features process revamp. ;) 18:20:35 <pjones> so it means if you change those arguments but haven't updated your grub2.cfg, you'll get the wrong ones, but... they're also the ones you booted with. 18:21:23 <notting> pjones: ok, so grubby seems a non-blocker. and since it only takes effect on update, it can be fixed in an update 18:21:25 <sgallagh> nirik: Sorry, I only skimmed the ticket. It happened before I rejoined FESCo. 18:21:28 <pjones> yep 18:21:40 <pjones> no reason an update can't fix it 18:21:50 <nirik> sgallagh: yeah, it landed right before freeze, but it affected many packages that were unaware of the changes. ;( 18:21:59 <nirik> so, we are down to firstboot? 18:22:07 <notting> firstboot we should probably fix. and it looks like a simple one 18:22:39 <nirik> adamw / tflink / Viking-Ice / jreznik: have you done any non en installs, and gotten en firstboot? 18:22:51 <mitr> I have asked kparal a few minutes ago as well 18:23:06 <sgallagh> nirik: *nod* That was my reading of it. Which was why I am shocked we allowed that change. But we're well and truly stuck with it now, I guess. 18:23:25 <nirik> I'm all for fixing it if it's an actual problem. If it's not by some miracle, leave it alone. ;) 18:25:05 <nirik> proposal: fix firstboot/get into final compose if it turns out to always be offering en_US for firstboot. Otherwise let all these be fixed in updates 18:25:28 <jwb> +1 18:25:45 <pjones> nirik: +1 18:25:57 <mitr> +1 18:25:58 <jwb> as an aside, randomly assigning a task to someone that didn't volunteer to do it seems to have failed miserably. we should probably avoid that from now on 18:26:01 <notting> +1 18:26:26 <mitr> how do we technically make this happen? jreznik, can you track this as a blocker, please? 18:26:41 <nirik> jwb: yeah, agreed. we should suck this kind of thing up and have fesco members do it. 18:26:43 <jreznik> mitr: is there a bug? 18:26:45 <sgallagh> +1 18:26:49 <mitr> jreznik: #881887 18:27:02 <nirik> mitr: we can propose it, I would think it would already have been found if it's really happening tho. 18:27:15 <mitr> nirik: i agree 18:27:24 <mitr> I might be just grossly misreading the code 18:28:31 <nirik> #agreed fix firstboot/get into final compose if it turns out to always be offering en_US for firstboot. Otherwise let all these be fixed in updates 18:28:34 <jreznik> mitr: as nirik said, it could be proposed as blocker bug 18:29:27 <jreznik> ok, there's blocker review meeting right now going on in #fedora-bugzappers 18:30:08 <mitr> jreznik: added as a depenency of the tracking bug, without any release criterium specified though 18:30:14 <t8m> jwb, randomly? we assigned it to person who did the original commit, so that wasn't particularly random 18:30:27 <nirik> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=858657 seems to say that it did, but now no longer does. 18:31:07 <nirik> anyhow, we can handle that out of meeting. 18:31:09 <adamw> nirik: i don't recall the answer to that off the top of my head. 18:31:32 <nirik> ok, we will want to test it to make sure it's not happening. If it is, this bug is likely the cause. ;) 18:31:35 <adamw> if you want changes to happen post-freeze, the bug needs to be proposed as either a blocker or NTH. please propose as blocker only if it's _actually a release blocker_, otherwise NTH. 18:31:43 <adamw> that's Blocks: F18Blocker or Blocks: F18-accepted. 18:31:44 <nirik> right. 18:31:51 <jwb> t8m, it was random in that we've never just done that before 18:32:08 <jwb> t8m, basically, we can only ask. we can't dictate. 18:32:17 <jreznik> adamw: it's already proposed by mitr 18:32:26 <t8m> jwb, yep, we could also ask to revert that commit 18:32:26 <pjones> jwb: we certainly *can*, but that doesn't mean we should. 18:32:34 * nirik thinks we should have tested before proposing, but sure... 18:32:36 <t8m> jwb, but it could be ignored as well 18:32:51 <jwb> sigh. really? we're going to pointlessly bicker about this now? 18:32:56 * nirik moves on 18:32:57 <jwb> let's waste more time. sounds good. 18:32:59 <nirik> #topic Next week chair 18:33:07 <jwb> i'll chair next week 18:33:11 <nirik> who wants the chair next week? it's so comfy! 18:33:16 <jwb> i'll chair next week 18:33:20 <nirik> #info jwb to chair next week 18:33:23 <nirik> thanks! 18:33:27 <nirik> #topic Open Floor 18:33:33 <nirik> anyone have items for open floor? 18:34:30 <nirik> So, fudcon is coming up... are there topics/sessions we want to make happen? 18:34:31 * jreznik tried to send the first batch of f19 proposed features announcements - if you could take a look on format/structure etc... 18:35:10 <pjones> jreznik: what's your criteria for when to send those, btw? particular category or what? 18:35:32 <pjones> jreznik: I ask because I vaguely expected https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PackageSignatureCheckingDuringInstall to be sent (though I may simply have committed it too late to make your list) 18:35:45 <jreznik> pjones: once I did the review (so category is ReadyForWrangler) 18:35:48 <nirik> I think we should really have a 'redo features' session... but I'm not sure I can commit to leading that. 18:35:50 <sgallagh> nirik: We talked a few weeks ago about having a Feature planning session 18:36:12 <jreznik> pjones: set ReadyForWrangler category 18:36:14 <sgallagh> Does it need to be "lead" beyond "make sure it's on the schedule"? 18:36:16 <pjones> okay 18:36:37 <jreznik> nirik: well, I can help... 18:36:53 <sgallagh> jreznik: I should have a Node.js Feature in ReadyForWrangler already. 18:37:00 <pjones> jreznik: alright, done. thanks. 18:37:01 <nirik> sgallagh: would be good to have a few folks who put it on the schedule, gather info and help lead the discussion. 18:37:01 <notting> sgallagh: people need to show up to it. and maybe bribe the session organizer to ensure it gets a room 18:37:15 <sgallagh> nirik: I'll back you on that. 18:37:22 <jreznik> pjones, sgallagh: cool, I'll take a look - just got stuck with blocker review meeting... 18:37:31 <pjones> np 18:37:32 <nirik> I know toshio wanted ot help work on it too 18:37:34 <sgallagh> (Since this session is pretty much the primary reason I'm making the trip) 18:37:43 <jreznik> I'd like to send a few more today - to have features ready for next meeting (no sooner than one week requirement) 18:38:17 <nirik> I can add it to the schedule, but not sure I can lead things. ;) 18:38:18 <jreznik> notting: actually I've already proposed it on wiki 18:38:28 <nirik> ah, cool. 18:38:41 <nirik> thanks jreznik 18:39:06 <jreznik> but looks like it was nuked 18:39:11 <nirik> ? 18:39:24 <jreznik> no, it's still there :) 18:39:27 * jreznik is blind 18:39:34 <sgallagh> jreznik: Yeah, it's proposed but not yet scheduled 18:39:45 <nirik> did we want to do a 'meet your fesco and talk to them about stuff' session? 18:40:12 <jwb> sure 18:40:57 <nirik> or perhaps it could be 'buy your fesco drinks and talk about stuff'... :) 18:40:58 * jreznik is looking forward to meet his fesco! 18:41:18 <jreznik> nirik: well, come to brno - drinks are cheaper here, I could afford that :) 18:41:25 <nirik> :) 18:41:31 <nirik> anyhow, anything else, or shall we close out? 18:41:34 * sgallagh seems to remember that Kansas is a "dry state" 18:41:44 <jwb> what? 18:42:19 <jwb> pretty sure that was repealed back in 1948 18:43:10 <sgallagh> jwb: Alcohol isn't banned, but you have to be a member of a social club (which basically all adults are) in order to purchase, IIRC 18:43:16 * nirik will close out in a minute if nothing more. 18:43:36 <sgallagh> nirik: Want me to submit the "Meet the FESCo" to the agenda? 18:43:46 <notting> sgallagh: are you proposing changes to fudcon venue selection criteria based on these things? 18:44:04 <nirik> sgallagh: sure. 18:44:05 * jreznik is going to schedule proposed session... 18:44:08 <jwb> sgallagh, proposed fudpub is in a brewery. i think we're ok 18:44:54 <sgallagh> nirik: Are we classifying that as a hackfest or a lightning talk? 18:45:04 <nirik> hackfest I guess... 18:45:55 <sgallagh> Ok 18:46:26 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone... 18:46:29 <nirik> #endmeeting