18:00:01 <nirik> #startmeeting FESCO (2013-03-20)
18:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar 20 18:00:01 2013 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:02 <nirik> #meetingname fesco
18:00:02 <nirik> #chair abadger1999 jwb mitr mmaslano notting nirik pjones t8m sgallagh
18:00:02 <nirik> #topic init process
18:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
18:00:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 jwb mitr mmaslano nirik notting pjones sgallagh t8m
18:00:09 <mitr> Hello all
18:00:20 * abadger1999 can pay attention every so often
18:00:27 <pjones> hello.
18:00:30 * notting is here
18:00:36 <jwb> hi
18:00:53 * jreznik lurks
18:01:22 <nirik> I think sgallagh and mmaslano are both out today.
18:01:47 <jreznik> nirik: yep, marcela is still out
18:01:47 <nirik> so, I guess lets go ahead and get started.
18:01:55 <nirik> #topic #1095 Fedora 20 schedule proposal
18:01:55 <nirik> .fesco 1095
18:01:55 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1095
18:02:03 <zodbot> nirik: #1095 (Fedora 20 schedule proposal) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1095
18:02:31 <nirik> so, did we come up with any brilliant plans on this since last meeting?
18:02:43 * jreznik thinks we are still stuck with not accepted proposal
18:03:08 <nirik> well, the issue is: do we make a schedule (even tenative) without knowing what will be in it.
18:03:10 <notting> nirik: only the ones to move our new unicode world from the release name to the release number.
18:03:41 * nirik proposes a feature for Fedora e^(i*pi)
18:04:11 <jreznik> nirik: chicken - egg - without saying how much time we will give to the teams...
18:04:25 <notting> nirik: nah. our release processes are already irrational, the number should be too
18:04:27 <mitr> nirik: Marcela is +1 in the ticket for a proposal that got +4 the last time...
18:04:34 * nirik looks
18:04:56 <nirik> mitr: that is a new proposal...
18:05:12 <jreznik> nirik: that's actually more "details provided" for the previous one
18:05:31 <nirik> oh I see...
18:05:32 <abadger1999> I'm worried that we'll slip into the holidays again with this schedule but I don't have a better idea if we want to do a regular full Fedora release.
18:05:38 <abadger1999> You can count me as a +1
18:05:40 <pjones> nirik: or maybe e^(i*pi)+1?
18:05:59 <nirik> pjones: I'd love to see what breaks with a fedora-0 ;)
18:06:28 <nirik> so, then I guess we pass that schedule... sorry pjones. You can tell us 'I told you so' now.
18:06:41 <pjones> abadger1999: the issue isn't so much worries about the dates themselves as worrying that by agreeing to them all now we're committing the same mistakes as we did for F18.
18:07:00 <nirik> so, that would be:
18:07:06 <nirik> approve schedule aiming as 2013-11-12, with explicit dates listed as 'no earlier then', and start the announcement with "will be adjusted out based on changes submitted by deadline"
18:07:11 <jreznik> or ubuntu-20
18:07:43 <jreznik> nirik: yep, I think it's a compromise similar to what we did with f19, just a little bit more clear
18:07:49 <nirik> assuming no one else wishes to change their votes? speak now.
18:08:03 <abadger1999> pjones: Well... yeah, I don't have an answer for that problem either.
18:08:36 <abadger1999> :-(
18:08:42 <notting> nirik: i can be +1 to that
18:08:50 <nirik> #agreed approve schedule aiming as 2013-11-12, with explicit dates listed as 'no earlier then', and start the announcement with "will be adjusted out based on changes submitted by deadline" (+6, -1, 0)
18:09:06 <nirik> anything else on this? or moving on...
18:09:25 <nirik> #topic #1094 tomcat6 deprecation (fasttrack)
18:09:26 <nirik> .fesco 1094
18:09:26 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1094
18:09:29 <zodbot> nirik: #1094 (tomcat6 deprecation (fasttrack)) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1094
18:09:36 <nirik> the submitter said this can be closed now.
18:09:46 <nirik> I will just do that unless anyone has any further issues here...
18:09:53 <abadger1999> mitr: btw, I think Marcela voted the last time (in ticket)
18:10:05 <notting> hooray for things that sort themselves out
18:10:16 <nirik> yeah, always nice.
18:10:18 <abadger1999> yay
18:10:23 <mitr> abadger1999: yes, but we changed the proposal
18:10:27 <nirik> #action nirik to close ticket out.
18:10:34 <nirik> #topic #1098 F19 Features - Progress on Feature Freeze
18:10:34 <nirik> .fesco 1098
18:10:34 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1098
18:10:36 <zodbot> nirik: #1098 (F19 Features - Progress on Feature Freeze) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1098
18:11:35 <nirik> so where are we here?
18:11:57 <jwb> we're at the point where we drop stuff
18:12:14 * nirik nods
18:12:30 <jwb> which is basically kolab and ns-3 at this point?
18:12:57 <jreznik> the list of postponed features is quite big
18:13:09 <nirik> jwb: looks like.
18:13:16 <jreznik> jwb: I have not received any update for ns-3 at all
18:13:18 <jwb> jreznik, they already moved them themselves.  that's good.
18:13:40 <jwb> proposal: drop ns-3 and kolab as features for F19.  Suggest they target F20.
18:13:40 <jreznik> jwb: well, I convinced them to do so :) to make it easier for fesco :)
18:13:45 <jwb> excellent
18:13:56 <nirik> jwb: +1
18:14:02 <jreznik> cwickert promised updates but... so I'm +1
18:14:06 <notting> jwb: +1
18:14:24 <notting> they're both leafy features, so if they come back tomorrow we *can* reconsider, but yeah - defer to f20
18:14:24 <mitr> +1.  (We can perhaps reconsider later if they do make F19 and are expected to be sufficiently tested.)
18:14:43 <nirik> right, they can come back for an exception.
18:15:07 <nirik> other votes?
18:15:08 <abadger1999> +1
18:15:18 <jreznik> there are more leaf features that could get exception later, for now it was easier and safer to postpone
18:15:41 * pjones reads
18:15:47 <pjones> jwb: +1
18:15:55 <nirik> #agreed drop ns-3 and kolab as features for F19.  Suggest they target F20. (+6, 0)
18:16:36 <nirik> So, we had enough votes on this to decide in ticket, but I thought I would have a topic in case others wished to vote or had additional comments:
18:16:38 <nirik> #topic rawhide inheritance
18:16:46 <nirik> #1005 At f19 branching time, drop inheritance in rawhide
18:16:46 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1005
18:16:47 <nirik> .fesco 1005
18:16:47 <nirik> and
18:16:47 <nirik> #1099 Postpone inheritance cut-off to Alpha Freeze
18:16:48 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1099
18:16:50 <nirik> .fesco 1099
18:16:50 <zodbot> nirik: #1005 (At f19 branching time, drop inheritance in rawhide) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1005
18:16:53 <zodbot> nirik: #1099 (Postpone inheritance cut-off to Alpha Freeze) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1099
18:17:13 <nirik> so, any additional thoughts or comments? or are we all set here?
18:18:31 * nirik listens to the crickets chirp. ;)
18:18:36 <notting> i like the idea of later inheritance breaks because i'm lazy.
18:18:47 <jwb> i don't care either way
18:18:49 <notting> but i don't care enough that we should drastically change policy for it.
18:19:21 <nirik> I understand lazy... but I think this way is also nicer... I mean f19 and rawhide aren't really the same after branch...
18:19:51 <nirik> perhaps we revisit next cycle and see if we can do anything better.
18:19:53 <jreznik> nirik: +1 and I actually never used inheritance
18:20:04 <mitr> If anybody wanted to save work, a script that kicks of both builds and even reports a diff of the build.logs (potentially ignoring "f19"/"f20" differences) should be easy enough to write.
18:20:21 <nirik> mitr: yeah.
18:20:29 <nirik> ok, moving along then...
18:20:35 <mitr> Conceptually I strongly prefer having the build system and branches consistent
18:20:43 * nirik does too
18:20:58 <pjones> mitr: likewise
18:21:05 <mitr> Do we want a pro forma vote, or is that -4 in the ticket considered sufficient?
18:21:38 <nirik> mitr: theres -5 in ticket 1099...
18:21:52 <notting> I can be -1 too
18:22:18 <mitr> nirik: comment#4 if vondruch quoting abadger1999
18:22:37 <pjones> you meant "is", right?
18:22:40 <nirik> oh indeed.
18:22:47 <mitr> pjones: yes, sorry
18:22:52 <pjones> still, looks like we're at -6 now?
18:23:01 <nirik> so, with nottings -1 we are at -5...
18:23:09 * pjones was counting himself
18:23:15 <nirik> sorry, yeah, -6
18:24:06 <nirik> #agreed proposal to Postpone inheritance cut-off to Alpha Freeze rejected (0,-6,0)
18:24:14 <nirik> #topic #1102 Release name issues
18:24:14 <nirik> .fesco 1102
18:24:15 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1102
18:24:19 <zodbot> nirik: #1102 (Release name issues) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1102
18:25:02 <mitr> Do we have a reason to believe there will be many bugs?
18:25:17 <jwb> i think pjones fixed 3 yesterday
18:25:33 <pjones> jwb: which means we have reason to believe we won't have those 3.
18:25:40 <jreznik> abrt guys fixed abrt one
18:26:02 <pjones> still, the real question is: how many alpha blocker bugs will we have?
18:26:14 <nirik> indeed.
18:26:14 <jreznik> but it caused for example issue with pillow due to python unicode handling
18:26:23 <pjones> and I think it's starting to look like there was a quick rush of them, but they've mostly subsided.
18:26:36 <mitr> I don't see this as a reason to panic... yet
18:26:53 <pjones> yeah, I think it was just a scary change that caused some dramatic breakage up front, but wasn't actually too bad
18:26:58 <nirik> I don't think we will really know until we get further testing things.
18:27:06 <mitr> Perhaps we could stay with the current name for Alpha, and decide to revert at the change freeze time if it would look like it would affect the schedule?
18:27:20 <notting> the spec defines that os-release is in unicode, correct?
18:27:20 <abadger1999> jreznik: only sorta true -- it caused python3 to ftbfs
18:27:20 <nirik> mitr: yeah, that was my thought.
18:27:28 <nirik> notting: yep.
18:27:36 <nirik> well, if by 'spec' you man 'man os-release'
18:27:39 <mitr> 2 weeks should also be enough time to fix a few issues
18:27:43 <adamw> right now the state of pre-alpha images is that we don't have a non-live image which can complete an install, and basically only I have a live image which installs
18:27:44 <abadger1999> jreznik: and pillow needed python3 rebuilt to fix a different bug
18:27:50 <jreznik> abadger1999: ok
18:27:55 <adamw> and I have not tested that any further than 'it reaches the desktop' really
18:27:58 <adamw> so it's a hard question to answer.
18:28:19 <adamw> fixing the single quote _ought_ to reduce the possible number and severity of issues, though, so thanks pjones.
18:28:42 <abadger1999> notting: yep -- os-release is supposed to be utf-8.  But os-release is also a different format (key-value vs a single string)
18:29:03 <jreznik> adamw: yep, I think the quote one is really the top one...
18:29:39 <jreznik> abadger1999: but makes sense to have same rule for os-release and fedora-release at least for encoding
18:29:46 <abadger1999> jreznik: +1
18:30:11 <nirik> hey t8m
18:30:29 <nirik> so, really I think we should keep trying to fix things and if it seems like thats causing massive pain, revisit.
18:30:32 <notting> proposal: leave name as is, fix issues as they arise
18:30:37 <pjones> notting: +1
18:30:40 <t8m> heya
18:30:48 <nirik> +1
18:30:52 <mitr> notting: +1
18:30:55 <notting> (as-is == with currently-in-tree apostrophe change, just for reference)
18:31:02 <abadger1999> +1
18:31:06 <t8m> +1 if it does not cause slippage
18:31:34 * notting is +1 (obviously)
18:31:36 <nirik> #agreed leave name as is, fix issues as they arise (+6,0,0)
18:31:44 <nirik> #topic next weeks chair
18:31:47 <nirik> who wants the fun?
18:31:54 <t8m> nirik, I can do
18:32:08 <nirik> cool. thanks.
18:32:14 <nirik> #action t8m to chair next week
18:32:18 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:32:21 <nirik> anything for open floor?
18:33:32 <Viking-Ice> what's the default logger now that journal persistancy has been enabled by default ?
18:33:38 <jreznik> nirik: just one thing related to schedule - I'd like to have a draft of "changes" template and process ready soon - to announce it together, hope for next meeting for you
18:34:12 <Viking-Ice> http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/systemd.git/commit/?id=5457175a7257203846385d90b3f6287f194e5065
18:34:32 <nirik> Viking-Ice: rsyslog is still enabled and default, if someone wants to propose a f20 feature to change that, feel free.
18:34:39 <nirik> jreznik: cool.
18:35:08 <Viking-Ice> nirik, I just want to fix things before rsyslog gets disable I wanted to start doing that a year ago hence my packaging proposal
18:35:16 <Viking-Ice> at that time
18:35:30 <Viking-Ice> trying to work ahead of the inevitable
18:35:35 <jreznik> nirik: sorry for delays, I'm trying to sync with docs, not many luck with marketing, I'll push harder
18:36:22 <nirik> no worries.
18:37:09 <nirik> ok, anything else?
18:37:41 <drago01> Viking-Ice: flip it in rawhide?
18:37:59 <drago01> Viking-Ice: enough time to work things out ... we already branched
18:38:12 * nirik would like to see a feature proposal with the changes and scope and such...
18:38:12 <Viking-Ice> drago01, need the fpc proposal approved it's on ice since journal is not the "default"
18:38:37 <Viking-Ice> in fact it makes no sense enable journal persistancy ( from my pov ) until it is
18:38:42 <nirik> and confirm all the issues folks noted last time it was proposed are handled in some way
18:39:18 <mitr> Viking-Ice: You can (rpm -e rsyslog) in F18 already and test that if you are interested
18:39:56 <Viking-Ice> mitr, I just want to start fixing packaging log files in the distribution
18:39:57 <mitr> (don't take that as a +1 to the change from me :) )
18:40:13 <Viking-Ice> after all the affected components are around 600
18:40:18 <Viking-Ice> it takes time ;)
18:40:18 <mitr> Viking-Ice: I have no idea what that means, sorry
18:40:50 <Viking-Ice> mitr, as so many things packages are not depending on rsyslog
18:41:34 <mitr> Viking-Ice: All of 2 packages on F18
18:41:47 <nirik> anyhow, can we continue this out of meeting?
18:41:48 <Viking-Ice> mitr, there should be around 600 ;)
18:42:02 <mitr> nirik: yes.  sorry
18:42:18 <nirik> if nothing else, will close in a minute then.
18:43:23 <nirik> thanks everyone.
18:43:25 <nirik> #endmeeting