18:01:28 #startmeeting FESCO (2013-07-03) 18:01:28 Meeting started Wed Jul 3 18:01:28 2013 UTC. The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:01:28 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:01:31 #meetingname fesco 18:01:31 The meeting name has been set to 'fesco' 18:01:35 #chair abadger1999 mattdm mitr mmaslano notting nirik pjones t8m sgallagh 18:01:35 Current chairs: abadger1999 mattdm mitr mmaslano nirik notting pjones sgallagh t8m 18:01:39 #topic init process 18:01:42 morning everyone. 18:01:49 or afternoon :) 18:01:50 pjones told me he will not be making it today. 18:01:53 Evening everyone 18:02:37 * abadger1999 here 18:03:35 hi 18:04:13 Anyone know if notting and t8m are planning to attend today? 18:04:22 (We have quorum in any case) 18:05:00 I didn't see him online few days, probably vacation 18:05:13 t8m had a PTO planned until today 18:05:16 OK, let's proceed then. 18:05:34 So, today marks the first day of the new FESCo 18:05:48 hi! 18:05:56 I'd like to thank jwb for his service and welcome mattdm to his new office. 18:06:18 hurrah! 18:06:22 welcome and thanks! 18:06:33 thanks for the welcome and thanks to jwb! 18:07:02 Ok, on to business. First, a follow-up from last week: 18:07:05 #topic #1128 switching from "-fstack-protector" to "-fstack-protector-strong" in Fedora 20 18:07:08 .fesco 1128 18:07:10 sgallagh: #1128 (switching from "-fstack-protector" to "-fstack-protector-strong" in Fedora 20) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1128 18:08:03 I'm not certain why this is still open, actually. 18:08:15 I think we gave it the go-ahead last week 18:08:16 the bug hasn't been acted on by the maintainer... 18:08:19 yet anyhow. 18:08:40 Which maintainer, redhat-rpm-config? 18:08:50 yeah, panu. 18:09:12 Ok, I'll ping him again about including it 18:09:24 Do we want to track this as a F20 blocker? If not, let's just close the ticket I think. 18:09:32 #action sgallagh to ping panu about including -fstack-protector-strong patch 18:09:51 yeah, close is fine, as long as we make sure it's actually done. ;) 18:09:57 mitr: I suggest we track the redhat-rpm-config bug as an F20Alpha blocker 18:10:01 Do we need a mass rebuild with this? 18:10:19 * abadger1999 wonders if we should have a mass rebuild tracker of some sort too. 18:10:24 abadger1999: we may yeah, if nothing else to make sure nothing breaks. 18:10:25 abadger1999: We should include it in the inevitable gcc mass-rebuild 18:10:26 abadger1999: good point, a mass rebuild should happen after this lands 18:10:42 how about a new ticket for mass rebuild and note the things that might need it? 18:10:56 so we can coordinate schedules, etc. 18:11:03 nirik: Mind taking that? 18:11:07 nirik: SOunds good. I'll file and add this and the python-setuptools thing. 18:11:24 #action abadger1999 to file mass-rebuild tracker ticket for F20 18:11:27 sure, I can file one. Should it be in fesco or releng trac? 18:11:39 or abadger1999 can. thats just dandy with me. ;) 18:11:40 #undo 18:11:40 Removing item from minutes: 18:11:48 Decide amongst yourselves :) 18:12:11 I'll talk to dgilmore/the other #fedora-releng folks and decide. 18:12:17 sounds good. 18:12:25 #action abadger1999 to file mass-rebuild tracker ticket for F20. He will discuss with dgilmore where to file it. 18:12:31 we might ping gcc / rpm maintainers too to see if they need one. 18:12:47 Ok, so we'll close FESCo ticket 1128? 18:12:59 +1 18:13:01 +1 18:13:15 Sure 18:13:19 +1 18:13:36 +1 18:13:51 +1 18:14:08 #agreed Close ticket 1128 and address remaining issues with a mass-rebuild 18:14:18 On to new business... 18:14:23 #topic #1132 libtool + %global _hardened_build 1 = no full hardening 18:14:27 .fesco 1132 18:14:28 sgallagh: #1132 (libtool + %global _hardened_build 1 = no full hardening) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1132 18:15:05 So... has proper analysis of this been performed yet? 18:15:14 I may have missed it on the list 18:16:07 Note that, AFAICS from the ticket and bug, this only applies to shared libraries 18:16:07 I didn't see anything on the list either. 18:16:09 * nirik didn't see any. 18:16:21 this is another redhat-rpm-config change? 18:16:32 nirik: Probably? 18:17:06 I'd say another bug should be filed and we should see if there's any issues with the proposed fix. (possibly a devel list post noting it and pointing to the bug?) 18:17:10 Discussion in the bug (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=978949) suggests that the patch is not ideal 18:17:34 * nirik missed the bug. looking 18:17:50 looks like we need comment from ajax? 18:18:08 Who is on vacation at the moment. 18:18:09 * nirik nods 18:18:25 (aka Adam Jackson for the record) 18:18:36 I think he'll be back next week, so shall we defer for a week pending his input? 18:19:52 fine with me 18:19:53 Given that this only applies to shared libraries, I don't think we really need to track it 18:20:18 mitr: Why do you say that? 18:21:13 sgallagh: 1) It's the daemons/executables that really need LD_BIND_NOW (but I haven't actually verified that not having it on libraries doesn't hurt) 2) Why is this different from any other bug? 18:21:42 mitr: Well, it's failing to comply with our security guidelines. 18:22:06 Also, executable plugins are still shared libraries, so there's exposure there. 18:22:29 I'll grant you that it was a bit heavy-handed to bring it to FESCo so quickly, but I don't know that it's sensible to ignore it. 18:23:40 I'm not going to be difficult about this :) Keep the ticket open if it saves us time in the meeting. 18:24:20 Proposal: shelve for a week, pending ajax input 18:24:25 * mattdm wonders if there's a way to fix the issue in libtool rather than hacking around it? 18:24:53 mattdm: My understanding is that this is another incarnation of a classic libtool issue that upstream doesn't consider to be a bug. 18:25:11 Though I'll admit that my understanding comes thirdhana 18:25:15 *thirdhand 18:25:20 +1 proposal 18:25:45 anyway yeah +1 to the "pending input" proposal 18:26:14 +1 18:26:18 +1 18:26:20 mattdm: Basically it's a side-effect of libtool reorganizing the order of certain flags before executing. This is done to be compatible with certain platforms, but breaks Linux sometimes in hard-to-understand ways. 18:27:06 sgallagh I wonder if it could be taught to deal with _these specific flags_ in the right way, rather than the big hammer approach suggested? 18:27:30 mattdm: All things are possible, but I'm the wrong person to ask if it's feasible :) 18:27:42 right. let's move on. :) 18:27:53 #agreed shelve for a week, pending ajax input 18:28:03 #topic 1131 Organize FESCo attendance at Flock 18:28:07 .fesco 1131 18:28:08 sgallagh: #1131 (Organize FESCo attendance at Flock) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1131 18:28:48 how do we want to go about this? 18:28:49 There are an awful lot of sessions occurring at Flock this summer that might benefit from FESCo attendance. 18:29:01 * mattdm will be there 18:29:31 First: who will be there? Second: Which are the important sessions for FESCo/those specific people? 18:29:39 * nirik will be there. 18:29:50 * mitr will be there 18:30:00 I will be there unless my daughter arrives a few weeks early. 18:30:27 I believe notting will also be there 18:30:39 Not sure about pjones or t8m 18:30:43 * abadger1999 will be there 18:31:31 I and t8m won't 18:31:38 :( 18:31:59 pjones is listed on the flock registration page 18:32:09 ok 18:32:20 * nirik isn't sure how to note things that could use fesco input... it could really be any of them depending on where they go. ;) 18:32:52 Well, some are obvious (to me, at least) 18:32:54 With 10 parallel sessions there's too few of us anyway :) 18:33:11 I think we should probably aim to be at "Meet Your FESCo". 18:33:11 The "Fedora Crystal Ball" and "Revamp" sessions for starters 18:33:45 * nirik was planning on making revamp 18:34:05 I won't make either of those. 18:34:15 I'm moderating the Crystal Ball and will be at revamp as well 18:34:21 I'm running a db thing at the same time as crystal ball 18:34:28 I hope someone will make meeting minutes, please 18:34:42 * nirik really hopes we can rope in some db savvy people for that. 18:34:56 mmaslano: We'll be trying. Also, the sessions will be streamed by video as well, if you wish to attend remotely (or watch later) 18:35:00 Did anyone see anything in the morning (talk) sessions? I've only been looking at conflicts in the workshop/hackfest/discussion sessions (afternoon) 18:35:38 ARM vs. Cloud in the very first session might be worth splitting our attention 18:35:45 I was planning to attend the Cloud one 18:35:47 "Evolution of ... ecosystem" vs. "Fedora ARM state of the union" might both be relevant 18:36:09 Ok, so a three-way tie in the first hour :) 18:36:10 on saturady, "Using Fedora for developing things other than Fedora" is at the same time as Meet Yor FESCo 18:36:19 ugh. 18:36:20 Yeah, that's unfortunate :( 18:36:26 sgallagh The cloud one is boring :) 18:36:36 * abadger1999 just refreshed his schedule page... the sched.org schedule is so much less usable :-( 18:37:24 Should we perhaps consider canceling or requesting a reschedule of "Meet Your FESCo"? 18:37:36 Maybe we could incorporate that into one of the night's social events instead of a talk? 18:37:51 sgallagh That is definitely my idea of a party 18:37:58 -_- 18:38:00 * mattdm is sadly half-serious 18:38:06 mattdm: lol 18:38:14 another idea: make it somehow easy for people to find a fesco member if they need to rope one into a talk? (not sure how... publish our schedules, setup a ping thing) 18:38:40 +1 nirk 18:38:42 +1 nirik 18:38:46 mattdm: meet your fesco *could* be structured as a more social event. 18:38:49 nirik: Not a bad idea. I'm sure we could rig something up. 18:39:12 I do think it would be better that way. 18:39:14 Proposal: Change "Meet your FESCo" to "Buy your FESCo a beer" 18:39:19 :) 18:40:08 sgallagh: or the opposite if spot/suehle have funds: sodas, ice, pizza, and the audience throws questions at us. 18:40:29 please don't assume we have funds. 18:40:32 * abadger1999 thinks if we have pizza, we'd probably have the whole conference, though... maybe that's too much :-) 18:40:34 oh hi spot 18:40:35 abadger1999: I think they'd tend more towards throwing sodas, ice pizza (and the audience) at us 18:40:56 sgallagh: depends on how tasty the pizza is :-) 18:41:32 can we have food/drinks in the room? 18:41:41 maybe pencil it in as a bring-your-own-pizza event? 18:41:54 Serious proposal now, though: Cancel the "Meet Your FESCo" session and incorporate it into one of the evening events? Possibly as a game? 18:42:13 if so, we should just have fesco pitch in and offer punch and pie to anyone who shows up. ;) 18:42:32 I've seen that movie. The punch and pie is a lie! 18:42:34 strike "possibly as a game" and i'm +1 18:42:44 mattdm: Agreed. 18:42:54 Ok, consider that portion dropped. 18:43:02 * nirik is fine with just leaving it, moving it to evening or whatever. 18:43:10 do we know if anyone has 'starred' it as something they want to attend? 18:43:26 Well, if we have some members with conflicts at that time, it's not really serving its purpose 18:43:34 '4 attending' 18:44:11 There are three non-FESCo members starred there. 18:44:13 I don't think we have any fesco-member conflicts? 18:44:24 Just other things people would want to go to. 18:44:31 Which would be the same in the evening too... 18:45:02 Didn't someone claim a conflict with "Using Fedora for other things"? 18:45:07 "Oh hey, so-and-so that I haven't seen since last year is going out to dinner... too bad I have Meet your FESCo now", etc. 18:45:44 sgallagh I am interested in that, because I would like Fedora to be useful. 18:46:05 Let me ask a different question, then. What do we want to have this session be about? Just a general AMA? 18:46:34 sgallagh: hmm... 18:46:35 mattdm: Yeah, I'd attend that one as well if this session was moved/canceled, probably 18:46:37 Here's a thought -- 18:46:59 What about moving to the 4PM slot on Sunday? So it can be a wrap up for fesco of the conference too? 18:47:01 ah 18:47:02 except 18:47:05 openlmi conflicts 18:47:09 which is your talk 18:47:18 Conference runs on Monday too... 18:47:29 sgallagh: Monday is a bad idea imho 18:47:50 Monday is going to be jam packaed with people desperately trying to do fifty things at once before flying home. 18:47:56 I'll move my OpenLMI back to 2:00, then. I moved it so I could go to Bodhi, but that was a "want", not a "need" 18:49:32 abadger1999: Your idea makes sense to me, enough that I'm willing to adjust the OpenLMI session back where it started. Assuming that the rest of us agree? 18:49:56 That works for me if it's not too inconvenient for you :-) 18:50:09 sgallagh: Sunday 4pm works for me 18:50:18 * nirik is fine with that... or could we somehow stick it inbetween... it shouldn't need 2 hours? 18:50:24 but openlmi might well. 18:50:27 I'm okay with that too. 18:50:48 nirik: I'm frankly not expecting anyone to actually show up for that hackfest. I'm *hopeful*, but not expectant. 18:52:38 whatever works. 18:53:01 Proposal: Move "Meet Your FESCo" to Sunday 4pm to act as a capstone discussion for the conference. 18:53:13 +1 18:53:25 +1 18:53:30 +1 18:53:42 sure, +1 18:54:05 perhaps we could add "Conference recap" or something to it also? 18:54:08 * mmaslano abstains 18:54:14 nirik: Sure 18:54:32 #agreed Move "Meet Your FESCo" to Sunday 4pm to act as a capstone discussion for the conference. 18:54:43 "Conference Recap with FESCo"?\ 18:54:49 yep 18:54:55 * nirik nods. 18:55:04 Ok, I'll talk to the organizers and sort that out. 18:55:23 #action sgallagh to speak with Flock conference organizers to shuffle the schedule 18:56:04 With this planned as a capstone, I think we can probably trust that our individual interests will spread us around the other talks, yes? 18:56:13 yeah, hopefully so. 18:56:21 (i.e. we probably don't need to go into much detail about the other sessions) 18:56:39 yeah sounds good. 18:57:11 Does anyone have any other conflicts they'd like us to discuss before we move to next week's chair? 18:57:42 * nirik has lots of them, but thats just because there's so much I want to go to going on. ;) nothing fesco can do... 18:57:53 I know the feeling 18:58:12 Ok, moving on then 18:58:17 #topic Next week's chair 18:58:35 * sgallagh shoots the arrow in the air. Who's going to catch it? 18:58:41 I can volunteer. 18:58:58 #info abadger1999 to chair next week's meeting 18:59:04 #topic Open Floor 18:59:18 Anything for open floor? 19:00:13 Thanks to everyone for a nice fedora 19 release. ;) Went smoothly and so far people seem to like it overall. :) 19:00:26 Yeah, smoothest release in a long time. 19:00:44 yes :) 19:01:18 Let's keep this up with F20, okay? 19:01:55 yessir 19:02:15 abadger1999: Do you want to discuss the setuptools change at all? 19:03:49 sgallagh: I've built the setuptools-0.7 package for rawhide today. 19:04:08 My limited rebuilds have only shown one problem pakage and there's an upstream beta that should fix that. 19:04:14 I saw that, but you are planning on building 0.8 soon as well? 19:04:26 There is a setuptools-0.8 which is scheduled for a few weks -- reading hte changelog I think we want to use that. 19:04:41 I'm going to talk to ncoghlan asap about whether he agrees. 19:04:50 yeah -- it's currently 0.8b2 19:05:03 * sgallagh notes that "first" is a Fedora tenet 19:05:16 A few weeks is still well before beta 19:05:23 err, alpha 19:05:31 19:06:39 In a non-FESCo-capacity, I'm in favor of landing 0.8 for F20. 19:07:28 Cool. 19:08:47 In an a non-FESCo-capacity, it is time for me to take my kids to piano lessons. 19:09:47 Oh, one important question 19:10:03 Does this timeslot continue to work for everyone (particularly mattdm, our new member)? 19:10:10 Or should we run through a whenisgood? 19:10:31 yes, it's good for me. 19:11:02 Ok, if no one has anything else, I'll close out the meeting 19:11:18 I'm good. thanks for running the meeting. 19:11:44 * nirik is fine with this timeslot. 19:12:03 * mmaslano has to go now 19:12:24 I'm also fine with this time, it may change in September 19:12:34 thanks all 19:12:37 #endmeeting