18:01:56 <abadger1999> #startmeeting FESCO 2013-07-10
18:01:56 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 10 18:01:56 2013 UTC.  The chair is abadger1999. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:01:56 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:02:21 <abadger1999> t8m: jreznik opened a ticket that we could talk about for open floor.
18:02:28 <abadger1999> #meetingname fesco
18:02:28 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
18:02:29 <t8m> OK
18:02:45 <abadger1999> #chair abadger1999 mattdm mitr mmaslano notting nirik pjones t8m sgallagh
18:02:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 mattdm mitr mmaslano nirik notting pjones sgallagh t8m
18:02:50 * nirik is here, need to grab coffee tho, back in a min.
18:03:00 <abadger1999> #topic init process
18:03:03 <abadger1999> Who's here?
18:03:12 <mattdm> i am
18:03:15 <mitr> Hello all
18:03:26 <t8m> Hello to all new and seasoned members of FESCo
18:04:10 <pjones> yo
18:04:56 * nirik waves
18:05:02 <abadger1999> Houston, we have quorum
18:05:23 * jreznik hides
18:06:01 <abadger1999> #topic #1132 libtool + %global _hardened_build 1 = no full hardening
18:06:09 <abadger1999> This was the only thing on the official agenda
18:06:29 <t8m> .fesco 1132
18:06:30 <zodbot> t8m: #1132 (libtool + %global _hardened_build 1 = no full hardening) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1132
18:06:48 <abadger1999> No feedback from ajax, though -- defer for another week?
18:07:02 <nirik> sure.
18:07:03 <mattdm> +1 defer
18:07:46 <mitr> yes
18:07:53 <abadger1999> notting: greetings, we're voting to defer the hardened_build for anothere week (no feedback from ajax)
18:08:01 <notting> wfm, +1
18:08:06 <notting> sorry about the late arrival
18:08:32 <abadger1999> +1 to defer
18:08:34 <pjones> somebody should mention to ajax that we're waiting on him
18:08:44 <pjones> nicely.  without being his 10th boss ;)
18:08:53 <t8m> +1 to defer
18:09:04 * pjones also +1 to defer
18:09:06 * sgallagh is here now. Last I heard, we were canceled...
18:09:10 <t8m> pjones, good idea
18:09:22 <pjones> sgallagh: appears not to have happened.
18:09:26 <abadger1999> <nod>  I'll ping the bugzilla again to say we've defered a decision to hear from him.
18:09:55 <t8m> pjones, will you volunteer to ping ajax out of band?
18:10:05 <abadger1999> #topic Next week's chair
18:10:12 <pjones> sure
18:10:13 <abadger1999> #undo
18:10:13 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x132d0090>
18:10:49 <abadger1999> #action -- abadger199 to mention we've defered for input from ajax in  bugzilla; pjones will ping out-of-band
18:10:57 <abadger1999> #topic Next week's chair
18:11:06 <abadger1999> Any volunteers?
18:11:13 * sgallagh will be on PTO next week
18:11:27 * pjones will be at the UEFI plugfest next week, but will try to attend fesco anyway
18:12:11 * mmaslano will be on travel to PTO
18:12:58 <t8m> hmm, we might cancel the next FESCO
18:13:15 <t8m> I am not sure I will be able to attend
18:13:22 <abadger1999> I think next week, we'll have a few Changes to approve.
18:13:22 <mattdm> I _may_ be out of touch I don't know enough to promise
18:13:48 <jreznik> abadger1999: yes, not too much - everyone is waiting for the last day to submit it :(
18:13:53 <abadger1999> Well ... if we have threee definitely out and two possibly out... we might not make quorum.
18:14:03 <jreznik> that makes me nervous, as we don't have much time in schedule to replan if needed
18:14:09 <abadger1999> <nod>
18:14:20 <sgallagh> jreznik: I've been pressuring people to file this week
18:14:39 <sgallagh> I'll be submitting one this afternoon or tomorrow.
18:14:40 <jreznik> sgallagh: thanks, I'm trying to do so too
18:15:35 <nirik> there's always voting in ticket, but thats hit or miss it seems like.
18:15:56 <abadger1999> If we think we might have a sudden rush of changes two weeks from now... maybe it's better if we try to meet anyway.  People who won't be around can vote on the changes in ticket.
18:16:32 <t8m> I have no problem with that
18:16:36 <jreznik> abadger1999: makes sense for me - but seems it's not going to be big, at least now... I'll send at least one more reminder
18:16:44 <abadger1999> wfm
18:16:50 <abadger1999> So any volunteers to chair?
18:17:35 <mitr> OK, I'll do it
18:18:39 <mmaslano> I can take the next
18:19:19 <abadger1999> #action mitr to chair the next meeting
18:19:22 <abadger1999> Thanks mitr!
18:19:47 <abadger1999> #topic Open Floor
18:20:00 <abadger1999> jreznik: opened a ticket a little before the meeting
18:20:24 <tflink> it sounds like it'll be at least 2 weeks before there's a decision on F20 branch date?
18:20:25 <jreznik> sorry for being late but I just wanted feedback from fesco sooner than later
18:20:39 <abadger1999> #topic 1134 Strategy for Self Contained change to System Wide change escalation https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1134
18:21:31 <t8m> jreznik, would it be possible to leave the escalation process on you? I mean you would decide whether the discussion warrants the escalation or not
18:21:33 <t8m> :D
18:21:59 <sgallagh> +1, that sounds like it's in the job description for Feature Wrangler
18:22:07 <notting> is there something wrong with 'any fesco member or the wrangler can decide to escalate'?
18:22:19 <sgallagh> notting: That works too
18:22:26 <t8m> yeo
18:22:27 <nirik> notting: +1
18:22:30 <t8m> notting, +1
18:22:36 <mattdm> +1
18:22:41 <mmaslano> +1
18:23:03 <sgallagh> notting: +1 (in case "That works too" was unclear :) )
18:23:11 <abadger1999> notting: +1
18:23:16 <mitr> +1
18:23:26 <jreznik> please add "explicitly on the mailing list" - it would be enough for me
18:23:58 <pjones> notting: +1
18:24:02 <jreznik> sgallagh: there are not very clear cases, sometimes I ask before the announcement, sometimes I'm just not sure...
18:24:37 <jreznik> but if discussion tends to "system wide", I'm ok to be also the one to say "please, update it", works for me
18:24:39 <abadger1999> So:  any fesco member or the wrangler can decide to escalate a self-contained feature to systemwide by noting that they're escalating it as part of the mailing list discussion.
18:24:39 <mitr> Yeah, the glibc change being a good example of an unclear case.
18:24:52 <sgallagh> jreznik: I didn't mean before the posting. I meant that if the conversation makes it seem more likely to be system-wide, you should have privilege to adjust it
18:25:07 <mitr> Still, we can discuss the corner cases on the maiiling list and either someone will want to personally ask for escalation or not
18:25:22 <sgallagh> Another unclear case is one I'm going to have the LVM/Anaconda teams file about thin-provisioning support in Anaconda.
18:26:04 <mitr> We can always decide the very unclear cases on the meeting - hopefully very rarely
18:26:09 <sgallagh> It's arguable whether that is self-contained (anaconda) or if it's system-wide because it affects the FS layout
18:26:37 <mmaslano> if it's arguable, then it's most probably system-wide ;-)
18:27:05 <abadger1999> sgallagh: I'd go with system-wide if it affects FS layout.
18:27:05 <jreznik> sgallagh: what I try to ask - if you can get both parties on board and sign it on the page - I have no problem with self contained, if not - clear system wide
18:27:08 <sgallagh> mmaslano: Well, the net result is *supposed* to be invisible
18:28:29 <mitr> What jreznik said
18:28:31 <abadger1999> anyhow
18:28:31 <sgallagh> Anyway, this doesn't need to be discussed here.
18:29:09 <jreznik> ok, and the proposal works for me, thanks
18:29:32 <abadger1999> #info APPROVED: (+1:8, 0:0, -1:0) any fesco member or the wrangler can decide to escalate a self-contained feature to systemwide by noting that they're escalating it as part of the mailing list discussion.
18:29:54 <abadger1999> #topic F20 branch date?
18:30:17 <abadger1999> tflink asked if the earliest we're going to decide that is two weeks from now.
18:30:34 <tflink> or just a better idea of when that might happen
18:30:42 <sgallagh> abadger1999: The earliest we *can* decide is a week after the Change Submission date.
18:30:52 <abadger1999> <nod>
18:30:55 <sgallagh> Because we know that people will wait until the last minute
18:31:43 <abadger1999> and typically, we need an extra session or a few extra weeks for the questions, answers, and updates to some of the changes.
18:32:21 <jreznik> this time, we have pretty tight schedule :(
18:33:07 <tflink> is this how we're planning to do things going forward or will this be a one-time-fix-release-date kind of thing
18:33:22 <tflink> ie, the variable branch date until right before it actually happens
18:34:06 <mitr> tflink: New FESCo can always reverse decisions of old FESCos, so hard to say
18:34:08 <abadger1999> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Schedule#Key_Milestones
18:34:19 <t8m> there was push by pjones to not set any dates until we are 100% sure about them
18:35:44 <abadger1999> Doesn't that kinda defeat the idea of "time-based releases"?
18:35:58 <tflink> did that lead to a decision on not setting dates or is that still something to be discussed?
18:36:11 <mitr> Can we not have the F21 scheduling decision right now, please?
18:36:19 <tflink> this variable branch date stuff makes it nearly impossible to plan qa development and allocate resources
18:36:46 <sgallagh> tflink: In a previous meeting we recognized that the best we can promise is "not before $DATE"
18:37:26 <t8m> mitr, +1
18:37:28 <jreznik> so it gives at least some overview for other teams, as QA complained last time
18:37:40 <nirik> the idea was that until we know what changes are planned, it's hard to know what schedule makes sense for them... we could alternately not wait for changes and decide a schedule, but then we might have to tell people 'no' for their changes.
18:37:53 <jreznik> nirik: exactly
18:38:14 <pjones> t8m: well, not exactly, but we certainly shouldn't do it before we've actually discussed the featureset
18:38:59 <t8m> pjones, ok, sorry for misrepresentation
18:39:02 <tflink> as long as there's some understanding when QA says dev stuff isn't going to happen because we can't effectively plan for larger features
18:39:05 <jreznik> tflink: so it's currently compromise between what we did before and f19
18:40:16 <jreznik> tflink: well, if you have a large QA feature/change - propose it, propose how much time it will take and I'd say if FESCo will feel it's what we need, they would reschedule (don't want to talk for FESCo but)
18:40:36 <jreznik> especially automation could be important for mitr's proposal
18:41:03 <tflink> jreznik: I'm not convinced that will help a whole lot if I'm waiting almost half the possibly available time to know how much time is available
18:41:39 <sgallagh> tflink: Hence the "not before $DATE" part.
18:41:39 <mitr> So is there a proposal that we would want to actually decide on today?
18:41:45 <t8m> could we please postpone this discussion when F21 planning is started?
18:41:51 <sgallagh> You are guaranteed to know that you have AT LEAST that much time
18:41:52 <mitr> Fix the schedule right now, for example?
18:42:05 <mitr> If there isn't the proposal...
18:43:32 <jreznik> and tflink - F20 is really tight... otherwise there would be no such rush but we were heading to christmas so FESCo asked me to schedule for November... I understand how it hits you
18:44:10 <tflink> as long as I'm clear that the current schedule is going to push back any automation changes until F21
18:44:26 <tflink> major changes, anyways
18:44:31 <abadger1999> <nod>
18:44:37 * sgallagh nods
18:45:50 <abadger1999> Okay.
18:45:55 <abadger1999> #topic Open Floor
18:46:01 <abadger1999> Anything else before we wrap up?
18:46:24 <nirik> I have something to note before I send it out:
18:46:41 <nirik> infrastructure: Ticket #3882 (Planned outage: koji storage move - 2013-07-18 21:00 UTC) created <https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/3882>
18:46:49 <nirik> planning a koji outage at the end of next week.
18:46:57 <nirik> if that doesn't work for some reason, please let me know soon. ;)
18:47:35 <abadger1999> #info koji outage planned for the end of next week.  Talk to infrastructure if that interferes with something important
18:53:59 <sgallagh> I think we're done for today.
18:54:04 <sgallagh> Thanks for chairing, abadger1999
18:54:13 <abadger1999> #endmeeting