16:00:03 <nirik> #startmeeting FESCO (2016-07-29)
16:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jul 29 16:00:03 2016 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2016-07-29)'
16:00:03 <nirik> #meetingname fesco
16:00:03 <nirik> #chair maxamillion dgilmore jwb nirik paragan jsmith kalev sgallagh rathann
16:00:03 <nirik> #topic init process
16:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
16:00:03 <zodbot> Current chairs: dgilmore jsmith jwb kalev maxamillion nirik paragan rathann sgallagh
16:00:36 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
16:00:37 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
16:01:32 <paragan> .hello pnemade
16:01:33 <zodbot> paragan: pnemade 'Parag Nemade' <pnemade@redhat.com>
16:02:16 <nirik> well, thats 3 of us... will wait a bit more and see if we reach quorum.
16:02:22 <jsmith> .hello jsmith
16:02:23 <zodbot> jsmith: jsmith 'Jared Smith' <jsmith.fedora@gmail.com>
16:02:41 <jwb> sorry for being late
16:02:54 <nirik> no worries.
16:03:20 <nirik> ok, thats 5, so we can go ahead...
16:03:23 <jsmith> I think that gives a quorum
16:03:38 <paragan> yes :)
16:04:01 <nirik> So, we have a newly elected fesco... I'd like to thank number80 for all his service on the last fesco and welcome rathann
16:04:13 <nirik> should we do a new whenisgood for a new time?
16:04:32 <sgallagh> nirik: Why don't we just ask rathann first.
16:04:46 <nirik> sure, although he appears not to be here today. ;)
16:04:50 <nirik> so, lets move on then...
16:04:51 * jsmith still prefers Fridays, as those are typically the only days he has access to IRC
16:05:01 * paragan also fine with current timing
16:05:09 <nirik> #topic #1600 F25 System Wide Change: KillUserProcesses=yes by default
16:05:10 <nirik> .fesco 1600
16:05:10 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/1600
16:05:11 <zodbot> nirik: #1600 (F25 System Wide Change: KillUserProcesses=yes by default) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1600
16:05:23 <nirik> sgallagh put a more concrete proposal in this morning.
16:05:27 <jwb> the list looks fine to me
16:05:29 <nirik> .fesco 1600
16:05:30 <zodbot> nirik: #1600 (F25 System Wide Change: KillUserProcesses=yes by default) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1600
16:05:50 <nirik> zbyszek: you thoughts ? ^
16:06:30 <zbyszek> screen and tmux are obviously fine.
16:06:50 <zbyszek> nohup and disown can be shell builtins, and I'm not sure if they can be redefined.
16:07:06 <zbyszek> (or should rather)
16:07:10 <sgallagh> I'll admit that I didn't have the time to do an in-depth look into nohup and disown before creating the list.
16:07:22 <sgallagh> However given that their obvious purpose is to do exactly this...
16:07:34 <sgallagh> (survive a session)
16:07:55 <nirik> well, with nohup there's a standalone, which I think all the shells use now a days (but I could be wrong)
16:08:01 <nirik> disown could be a lot harder
16:08:01 <zbyszek> Right, but there's always the option of redirecting people to a differnt-but-equivalent comamdn.
16:08:02 <Rathann> hi, I'm here, sorry
16:08:21 <nirik> morning Rathann. ;) Is this time ok for you? or should we try and find a better one? and welcome.
16:08:31 <Rathann> no, it's fine
16:08:36 <sgallagh> if nohup is standalone, then I think it's reasonable to leave it Tier 1 (even if we end up making downstream changes).
16:08:39 <Rathann> it's actually late afternoon for me
16:08:55 <nirik> well, the man page apparently tells me I am wrong.
16:09:13 <zbyszek> Yeah, I think the list of Tier 1 is good.
16:09:14 <nirik> "NOTE:  your shell may have its own version of nohup, which usually supersedes the version described here."
16:10:24 <nirik> I'm personally fine with the list/proposal. Shall we vote then? or anything else to discuss?
16:11:21 <nirik> Oh, one addon: Should we set it to 'yes' in rawhide? That might gather some small amount more feedback as well.
16:11:56 <jwb> I think so
16:12:04 <jsmith> I'm OK with it
16:12:08 <paragan> any timeline for Tier 1 and 2?
16:12:09 <nirik> proposal: accept sgallagh's proposal from https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1600#comment:17
16:12:18 <jwb> +1
16:12:22 <nirik> +1
16:12:51 <sgallagh> paragan: Tier 1 has to be complete or we enact the Contingency Plan
16:12:57 <sgallagh> I think we said Beta Freeze for that
16:13:02 <sgallagh> /me checks
16:13:11 <sgallagh> Yes
16:13:21 <paragan> okay +1
16:13:33 <sgallagh> Tier 2 are things that we will file bugs on and mark in Common Bugs but don't need to have a timeframe attached
16:14:16 <sgallagh> +1 from me for the record
16:14:20 <jsmith> +1 from me
16:14:36 <nirik> Rathann: ? Or just catching up. ;)
16:15:04 <Rathann> actually I'm still undecided
16:15:10 <Rathann> so 0 from me
16:15:28 <Rathann> I'm not completely sold on the change
16:15:29 <sgallagh> Rathann: Before tallying, could you say what makes you hesitate?
16:16:26 <sgallagh> Rathann: The Change itself was already approved by the previous FESCo; this is just hashing out the conditions for completion.
16:16:44 <Rathann> ah
16:17:11 <Rathann> ok, +1 for the conditions, then
16:17:38 <nirik> #agreed accept sgallagh's proposal from https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1600#comment:17 (+7,0,0)
16:17:42 <sgallagh> (meaning if the Tier 1 stuff isn't ready by Beta Freeze, the default stays "no" on F25 and we revisit in F26)
16:17:54 <Rathann> right
16:17:58 <nirik> #topic #1568 F25 Self Contained Changes
16:17:59 <nirik> .fesco 1568
16:17:59 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1568
16:17:59 <zbyszek> Thanks sgallagh.
16:18:00 <zodbot> nirik: #1568 (F25 Self Contained Changes) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1568
16:18:26 <nirik> this is just nodejs6
16:18:31 <nirik> which is already done even.
16:18:33 <nirik> +1
16:18:45 <jwb> +1
16:18:47 <paragan> +1
16:18:54 <Rathann> +1
16:19:02 <jsmith> +1
16:19:02 <sgallagh> Yeah, sorry for the late proposal. I thought I had filed it months ago.
16:19:12 <sgallagh> Biased +1
16:19:18 <jsmith> sgallagh: You did all the work, so we'll forgive you :-)
16:19:36 <sgallagh> :)
16:19:45 <nirik> #agreed nodejs6 change is approved. (+6,0,0)
16:20:38 <nirik> #topic #1602 dvgrab, non-responsive maintainer
16:20:38 <nirik> .fesco 1602
16:20:38 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1602
16:20:40 <zodbot> nirik: #1602 (dvgrab, non-responsive maintainer) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1602
16:21:03 <sgallagh> Do we want to just do all of them together, or do we expect discussion?
16:21:59 <sgallagh> Maybe rephrased: Does anyone have anything to say against following the non-responsive maintainerpolicy for any of these people?
16:22:16 * jsmith has nothing
16:22:21 <nirik> yeah, we have 4 of them
16:22:39 * nirik thinks again we should have a better process, but I keep not having time to propose something. ;)
16:22:40 <jwb> I don't
16:22:41 <sgallagh> They are dvgrab, scons, wise2 and patches
16:22:55 <jwb> +1 to all
16:22:58 <paragan> I am +1 to orphan all of 4 requests
16:23:09 <sgallagh> +1 to orphaning all 4
16:23:10 * nirik is also +1 to all
16:23:25 <jsmith> +1 to all four, for the record
16:23:50 <Rathann> +1 to all
16:24:14 * Rathann notes he needs wise2 as a dependency so he'll probably grab it if nobody beats him to it
16:24:29 <nirik> #agreed orphan packages in 4 maintainer tickets (+6,0,0)
16:24:35 <nirik> I'll do the orphaning after the meeting
16:24:46 <sgallagh> Thanks nirik
16:24:51 <nirik> #topic #1605 finish retirement of sysvinit-only packages
16:24:51 <nirik> .fesco 1605
16:24:51 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1605
16:24:56 <zodbot> nirik: #1605 (finish retirement of sysvinit-only packages) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1605
16:25:43 <sgallagh> So the proposal I made in the ticket was:
16:25:46 <jwb> I think we should process all of these now
16:25:50 <nirik> I'm fine with the list (once opentracker and nagios are removed). We should announce and possibly mail owners and give them a last week
16:26:03 <sgallagh> Retire all of the remaining sysv-only packages immediately after Flock with a final reminder warning.
16:26:08 <nirik> yeah, I guess there has been lots and lots of time
16:26:17 <jwb> Why after Flock?
16:26:21 <sgallagh> But yeah, we were supposed to do this six months ago
16:26:25 <paragan> +1 to retire all those packages
16:26:40 <sgallagh> jwb: Mostly just to give that last week, then a few days to account for the people who have to do it mostly being at Flock
16:26:50 <jwb> Seems like an unnecessary delay where we'll forget again
16:26:54 <Rathann> +1
16:27:16 <sgallagh> jwb: If you want to hit the button today, I'll +1 that too.
16:27:17 <Rathann> though I think psad also supports systemd now and it's several releases behind upstream
16:27:26 <Rathann> so, also a bug
16:27:28 <nirik> we could orphan them and let them die the normal process... but then someome might bring them back and not fix the sysvinit
16:27:29 <sgallagh> I suppose the worst-case situation is that people have to resubmit for package review
16:28:21 * Rathann will try to fix psad if there's time during Flock ;)
16:28:25 <sgallagh> OK, so let
16:28:29 <sgallagh> 's try this:
16:28:42 <nirik> nagios also needs fixing (I did file a bug)
16:28:46 <sgallagh> Proposal: retire all packages on this list (save opentracker and nagios which have been fixed) immediately.
16:29:02 <sgallagh> A +1 means immediate retirement, a -1 means wait until after Flock.
16:29:08 <sgallagh> But either way, it's happening
16:29:49 <Rathann> does "immediately" mean without a final warning?
16:30:00 <Rathann> I'm sure some people forgot about this
16:30:03 <sgallagh> Rathann: Yes, we *did* give a "final" warning six months ago
16:30:03 <nirik> I'm +1 I guess... lets get it over with, people can unretire if they actually care and hopefully get them fixed in review.
16:30:10 <sgallagh> And then forgot to actually execute on it.
16:30:11 <Rathann> ah
16:30:12 <jwb> we just reminded them like a week ago
16:30:17 <jwb> with the ticket
16:30:22 <jwb> anyway, +1
16:30:24 <paragan> I can help with retiring those packages
16:30:26 <sgallagh> +1
16:30:26 <paragan> +1
16:30:31 <Rathann> ok +1
16:30:51 <Rathann> I can always file an unretirement request or even re-review ticket when I need psad back in Fedora
16:31:21 <sgallagh> nirik: RE: nagios: are you proposing to not retire it? We did leave in a provision for FESCo to grant exceptions.
16:31:38 <sgallagh> Rathann: Yeah, and a new package review is usually a good thing for package health anyway.
16:31:41 <nirik> I would very much prefer we not retire it.
16:31:53 <nirik> I was going to give the maintainer a bit of time then just go fix it.
16:32:24 <sgallagh> Proposal: nagios gets an extension to Alpha Freeze
16:32:36 <nirik> it's a conditional bug. It shipped with a systemd unit since 2013... they just messed something up so it shipped the sysvinit instead
16:32:42 <sgallagh> (Which I am only okay with because nirik is committing to fixing it)
16:33:10 <nirik> so, thats +6 I guess with sgallagh ?
16:33:22 <sgallagh> Right, +1 for the record.
16:33:43 <nirik> #agreed retire packages on list aside nagios (which must be fixed by alpha) and opentracker (+6,0,0)
16:33:55 <nirik> paragan: can you retire them?
16:34:02 <paragan> sure I will
16:34:02 <nirik> I guess we do f25 and rawhide?
16:34:10 <jwb> yes
16:34:11 <sgallagh> Yes
16:34:11 <jsmith> WORKSFORME
16:34:20 <nirik> cool.
16:34:35 <nirik> #topic #1606 f25 approved Changes not in MODIFIED status (considered as not testable)
16:34:36 <nirik> .fesco 1606
16:34:36 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1606
16:34:37 <zodbot> nirik: #1606 (F25 approved Changes not in MODIFIED status (considered as not testable)) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1606
16:35:14 <sgallagh> paragan, nirik: Someone should also send out the announcement on devel-announce, if for no other reason than so we can finally say the systemd conversion is complete
16:35:46 <paragan> okay will send an email on devel-announce first
16:35:49 <sgallagh> RE: 1606 - I added my thoughts on each of the Changes to the ticket as https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1606#comment:2
16:36:03 <sgallagh> paragan: I didn't say "first", just that it should be announced that it happened.
16:36:12 <paragan> oh okay
16:37:18 <nirik> I find myself agreeing with sgallagh on the changes. ;)
16:37:40 <jsmith> nirik: I was just going to say the same thing, but I didn't want people to think I was just being lazy :-p
16:37:42 <paragan> I too agree with sgallagh comment
16:37:58 <nirik> some of the ones with no response may well be people already traveling to flock...
16:38:04 <sgallagh> I agree with his comments (because I'm too lazy to re-read them)
16:38:53 <sgallagh> The Bodhi one was the only one I think I was unsure about.
16:39:02 <nirik> I am unsure how far along that is...
16:39:17 <sgallagh> But if it's not feature complete already, then I'm wary of the disruption of putting it in place for F25
16:39:20 <Rathann> I read the comments and I concur with sgallagh
16:39:52 <nirik> proposal: ask FPM to follow recommendations in comment2 and revisit next meeting for items we deferred
16:39:54 <sgallagh> (Given that we very intentionally want F25 to be a short cycle)
16:40:04 <nirik> (I'm assuming no meeting next week? so week after?)
16:40:31 <paragan> +1
16:40:37 <sgallagh> nirik: Seems sensible, especially if some stuff gets solved at Flock
16:40:41 <sgallagh> +1
16:40:44 <nirik> +1
16:40:44 <Rathann> +1
16:42:33 <sgallagh> Just so we're clear, this is also following my last comment RE: setting KillUserProcesses=yes in F25 for Alpha?
16:42:43 <Rathann> yes
16:42:48 <nirik> yeah
16:42:59 <sgallagh> /me didn't want that slipping by without notice
16:43:04 <nirik> any other votes? jsmith / jwb
16:43:09 <jwb> +1
16:43:10 <sgallagh> zbyszek: ^^
16:43:13 <jsmith> +1
16:43:24 <nirik> #agreed ask FPM to follow recommendations in comment2 and revisit next meeting for items we deferred (+6,0,0)
16:44:02 <zbyszek> +1 to setting KillUserProcesses=yes in F25 for Alpha
16:44:10 <nirik> #topic Next meeting chair
16:44:18 <nirik> who wants the hot seat next meeting?
16:44:35 <jwb> so..
16:44:39 <jwb> when exactly is that?
16:44:45 <jwb> we're skipping next week, right?
16:44:50 <paragan> 12th August I guess
16:44:53 <nirik> yeah, I think so.
16:44:56 <sgallagh> Aug. 12?
16:44:58 <nirik> yep
16:45:14 <Rathann> for the record, I'm on vacation for the next two weeks, so I can't promise I'll attend on Aug 12th
16:45:42 <sgallagh> Rathann: What are you, a Congressman? Win an election, immediately go on vacation. ;-)
16:45:53 <Rathann> LOL
16:45:59 <Rathann> no, Flock is part of that vacation
16:46:24 <sgallagh> If no one else is going to volunteer, I'll chair Aug. 12
16:47:00 <Rathann> thanks, sgallagh
16:47:02 <Rathann> ;)
16:47:23 <nirik> thanks.
16:47:31 <nirik> #info sgallagh to chair on aug 12th
16:47:35 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:47:40 <nirik> anyone have anything for open floor?
16:48:20 <sgallagh> nirik: One minor Flock item.
16:48:56 <sgallagh> There's a Flock PRD workshop that's meant to get the PRDs for the various Editions in shape
16:49:18 <sgallagh> It would be best if any FESCo member present and not in another workshop were to attend and lend their expertise.
16:49:43 <sgallagh> #link https://flock2016.sched.org/event/7mOO/prd-workshop
16:50:07 <sgallagh> <EOF>
16:50:25 <nirik> alrighty
16:51:24 * jsmith has to run... thanks everyone!
16:51:37 <nirik> oh, clarification: on those orphanings, am I orphaning just the indicated package, or all the ones from that maintainer?
16:51:47 <nirik> ie, maintainer of dvgrab has several other packages
16:52:15 <sgallagh> Isn't official policy to orphan all of their packages?
16:52:35 <sgallagh> I'd figure doing otherwise should be the exceptional case.
16:52:35 <paragan> orphan all of their packages
16:52:54 <nirik> it's not clear, but yeah, will do
16:53:03 <nirik> ok, will close up in a minute if nothing else
16:53:13 <sgallagh> nirik: Thanks for running the meeting!
16:53:39 <paragan> nirik, Thanks for this meeting
16:54:24 <nirik> no problem. Safe travels to flock for everyone going.
16:54:27 <nirik> #endmeeting