16:06:02 <jwb> #startmeeting FESCO (2016-09-16)
16:06:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Sep 16 16:06:02 2016 UTC.  The chair is jwb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:06:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:06:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2016-09-16)'
16:06:02 <jwb> #meetingname fesco
16:06:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
16:06:02 <jwb> #chair maxamillion dgilmore jwb nirik paragan jsmith kalev sgallagh Rathann
16:06:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann dgilmore jsmith jwb kalev maxamillion nirik paragan sgallagh
16:06:02 <jwb> #topic init process
16:06:07 <nirik> morning
16:06:12 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
16:06:13 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
16:06:19 <maxamillion> .hello maxamillion
16:06:19 <jwb> apologies again.  had an urgent call come up
16:06:19 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
16:06:26 <paragan> .hello pnemade
16:06:27 <zodbot> paragan: pnemade 'Parag Nemade' <pnemade@redhat.com>
16:06:30 <maxamillion> jwb: hope all it well!
16:06:48 <jsmith> .hello jsmith
16:06:49 <zodbot> jsmith: jsmith 'Jared Smith' <jsmith.fedora@gmail.com>
16:07:00 <jwb> maxamillion: call itself was fine.  topic maybe not so much :)
16:07:08 <jwb> anyway, to business!
16:07:12 <Rathann> .hello rathann
16:07:13 <zodbot> Rathann: rathann 'Dominik Mierzejewski' <dominik@greysector.net>
16:07:26 <kalev> morning!
16:07:44 * jwb assumes dgilmore will arrive at some point
16:07:50 <jwb> #topic #1626 Release blocking deliverables for Fedora 25
16:07:50 <jwb> .fesco 1626
16:07:50 <jwb> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1626
16:07:51 <zodbot> jwb: #1626 (Release blocking deliverables for Fedora 25) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1626
16:07:55 <nirik> he has some PT, but should be here in a bit
16:08:11 <jwb> short agenda today.  first up is the deliverables
16:08:25 <jwb> looks like Server is set
16:08:34 <jwb> Workstation has one they didn't file a change for
16:08:49 <kalev> that Workstation extra deliverable isn't supposed to be blocking
16:09:12 <jwb> #info Workstation os-tree deliverable is not blocking
16:09:28 <jwb> cloud hasn't replied yet...
16:09:34 <sgallagh> Non-blocking is one thing, but whether it's on rel-eng to deliver it at all is another
16:09:39 <sgallagh> Has that part been addressed?
16:09:57 <jwb> sgallagh: indeed, it has not.  jkurik suggested it get moved to f26
16:09:58 <nirik> it should be produced now, but branched composes have been failing
16:10:03 <kalev> dgilmore and mclasen have been talking about this, I believe it's on dgilmore's list of things to do for F25
16:10:34 <kalev> but if that fails then F26 is a reasonable fallback plan
16:10:43 <jwb> ok.  we can follow up later on that one specifically.  sounds like the right people are discussing so we don't have another issue that came up with the original atomic deliverables
16:11:00 <jwb> kushal, maxamillion, any idea on Cloud?
16:11:08 <jwb> (or Atomic or whatever the WG is called)
16:11:50 <maxamillion> jwb: looking now
16:12:27 <maxamillion> jwb: yes, to the best of my knowledge https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Program_Management/ReleaseBlocking/Fedora25 is correct
16:13:14 <jwb> maxamillion: hm, ok.  would be good for the WG to confirm with jkurik
16:13:33 <maxamillion> jwb: +1
16:14:07 <jwb> #action jwb to prod cloud again and confirm deliverable with Cloud
16:14:24 <jwb> KDE was asked today, so we can probably skip discussing today
16:14:31 <jwb> anything else on deliverables?
16:14:46 * jsmith has nothing to add
16:15:14 <paragan> I think that covers the current update for Release blocking deliverables for f25
16:15:38 <jwb> ok, moving on.
16:15:43 <jwb> new business
16:15:52 <jwb> #topic #1628
16:15:57 <jwb> .fesco 1628
16:15:58 <zodbot> jwb: #1628 (F26 System Wide Change: DNF 2.0) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1628
16:16:10 <jwb> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1628
16:16:23 <jwb> DNF 2.0
16:16:55 <jwb> this is an F26 change to remind everyone
16:17:11 * nirik is +1
16:17:30 <nirik> I'm glad they are reaching out to all the consumers in fedora at least
16:17:36 <sgallagh> I'm concerned about the rate of change here, honestly.
16:17:43 <jwb> sgallagh: how so
16:17:56 <sgallagh> We still haven't migrated all of the rel-eng tools off of yum, and already they're potentially breaking compatibility again
16:17:59 <jsmith> I'm tentative as well - I'd still like to see more documentation about what's changed, expected corner cases, etc.
16:18:23 <maxamillion> DNF does seem to churn a lot, and I'm not real excited that it broke the original statement of yum compat .... but it is what it is and it's what we've got
16:18:38 <jwb> sgallagh: ironically to be more feature compatible with yum...
16:18:46 <jwb> sgallagh: which was our complaint the first time around
16:19:04 * Rathann has always thought it should be just called yum-4.x or whatever was the next major bump
16:19:24 <jwb> personally, i view it as a change reflecting the fact that dnf developers listened and are trying to address the concerns from 1.x
16:19:25 <kushal> jwb, our old deliverables were correct
16:19:45 <jwb> kushal: excellent, thank you for confirming.  please reply to jkurik so he knows
16:19:56 <sgallagh> jwb: I don't disagree that it's good for DNF to be listening and adapting.
16:19:58 <kushal> jwb, oh, then I missed to reply to him.
16:19:59 <paragan> I suppose this dnf-2.0 is for having yum compatible functionality though not much change information is given
16:20:01 <kushal> I will confirm him
16:20:17 <sgallagh> I'm just concerned at the rate of backwards-compatibility breakage making it difficult for rel-eng to adapt
16:20:25 * nirik wonders if this is also the change to libdnf
16:20:38 <sgallagh> If I was in their shoes, I'd be considering how to avoid dealing with it until it had matured.
16:20:58 <maxamillion> nirik: "this" ?
16:21:04 <jwb> nirik: and "the"?
16:21:11 * jwb is confused
16:22:02 <nirik> Well, I am not clear either... there was some mention of dnf moving to a libdnf from hawkey/libsolv.
16:22:20 <maxamillion> nirik: yes, that's part of the DNF-1 -> DNF-2 as I understand it
16:22:26 <paragan> yes its moving
16:23:04 <nirik> but none of those details are in this change or the upstream 'whats changing'
16:23:57 <maxamillion> nirik: ah, good point
16:24:42 <nirik> I guess libdnf is replacing hawkey, libsolv is still used.
16:24:47 * jsmith reiterates his point around documentation
16:25:03 <kalev> I don't think the libdnf change is particularly scary
16:25:24 <kalev> it's just a rename and merge together with another library, not that much has changed code wise as far as I understand it
16:25:42 <nirik> and it's in the libhif github repo. cool.
16:25:47 * kalev nods.
16:26:08 * nirik shrugs. still +1 here.
16:26:11 <kalev> https://github.com/rpm-software-management/libhif
16:26:26 <maxamillion> are any of the components being merged things that were previously shared with the zypper team and this is a diverge move or is that disjoint?
16:26:37 <kalev> I am +1 too. not an expert on what has exactly changed, but seems like an incremental update, nothing earth shattering
16:27:02 <kalev> maxamillion: it's a merge together with a library that packagekit uses
16:27:07 <maxamillion> kalev: ah ok
16:27:15 <maxamillion> kalev: is packagekit then going to use libdnf now?
16:27:28 <kalev> yup, it already does. it has a bundled copy of it
16:27:30 <nirik> yes
16:28:22 <maxamillion> ah ok
16:28:32 <maxamillion> I misunderstood some things then
16:28:43 <kalev> and rpm-ostree has a bundled copy of it as well and is already using it
16:28:55 <jsmith> OK, for the record, I'm +1 (with a plea for more details/documentation)... I've gotta drop offline very soon to board my flight.
16:29:02 <maxamillion> would this allow those things to be unbundled?
16:29:09 <kalev> yes
16:29:13 <maxamillion> cool
16:29:14 <maxamillion> +1
16:29:25 <paragan> I am also +1 to dnf change but more documentation should be added to Change page as and when its available
16:29:35 * Rathann is +1 as well and +1 to jsmith's request for more information
16:29:59 * jsmith is happy to volunteer for next week's meeting -- gotta run
16:30:23 <sgallagh> I'm voting 0 to this. I'm concerned that we're rocking the boat again while we're still recovering from the hurricane.
16:30:31 <maxamillion> jsmith: safe travels!
16:30:43 * dgilmore is here now
16:30:46 <sgallagh> I don't want to block it, but I'm not endorsing it either.
16:30:53 <maxamillion> do we still have quorum without jsmith ?
16:30:58 <jwb> so i have nirik, jsmith, Rathann, maxamillion, and paragan as +1
16:30:58 <maxamillion> oh dgilmore is here, nvm
16:31:08 <jwb> sgallagh: is 0
16:31:18 <jwb> i'm +0.5
16:31:26 <jwb> maxamillion: we only need 5 for quorum
16:31:26 <kalev> I was +1 as well
16:31:29 <jsmith> maxamillion: I registered my vote before I'm dropping offline
16:31:32 <jwb> kalev: yes, thank you
16:32:00 <maxamillion> jwb: I didn't have an original count in my head so I figured I'd ask ... I could have gone back and checked the rollcall, but I'm lazy :/
16:32:04 <jwb> so essentially FESCo has approved the change based on numbers
16:32:16 <jwb> maxamillion: you aren't chair today so that is expected ;)
16:32:40 <maxamillion> :D
16:32:42 <jwb> does anyone want to change their vote? or should we consider this approved?
16:33:06 <sgallagh> dgilmore: Do you have anything to say about DNF 2.0 with your rel-eng hat on?
16:33:31 <dgilmore> I am +1 to dnf2 I have concerns that tehy are not fixing issues raised and usability issues, but I do not think we can keep it out
16:34:10 <dgilmore> we still do not have a way to get verbosity on depsolving etc
16:34:21 <dgilmore> which makes things hard at times
16:35:01 <jwb> #approved DNF2.0 Change for F26 is accepted (1:8, 0:1, -1:0)
16:35:42 <jwb> #topic Next Week's Chair
16:35:50 <jwb> jsmith volunteered
16:35:52 <maxamillion> +1
16:35:53 * dgilmore will not be here next week
16:35:56 <maxamillion> jsmith++
16:35:56 <zodbot> maxamillion: Karma for jsmith changed to 2 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
16:35:58 <jwb> #info jsmith to chair next week
16:36:03 <kalev> I won't be here either next week, sorry
16:36:04 <jwb> dgilmore: nor i
16:36:20 <jwb> sgallagh: you?
16:36:51 * paragan is available next week
16:36:57 * maxamillion will be here next week
16:37:11 <jwb> #info kalev, dgilmore, jwb missing next week
16:37:12 * Rathann will be there
16:37:12 <sgallagh> I won't be here either
16:37:16 <jwb> #undo
16:37:16 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by jwb at 16:37:11 : kalev, dgilmore, jwb missing next week
16:37:17 * nirik may or may not be here. not sure. ;)
16:37:26 <jwb> #info kalev, dgilmore, jwb, sgallagh missing next week
16:37:34 <jwb> nirik: if you aren't then there isn't quorum
16:38:05 <dgilmore> shoudl we skip next week?
16:38:07 <nirik> ah. I was considering taking the day off... but I guess I can show up for fesco if nothing else. ;)
16:38:33 <maxamillion> nirik: pffft, take the day off ... go do something not this ;)
16:38:45 <jwb> given the super light agenda today...  i'd recommend canceling
16:39:00 <jwb> i don't think anything is going to materialize that needs urgent attention before then
16:39:05 <maxamillion> +1
16:39:10 * kalev agrees.
16:39:18 <dgilmore> proposal #agreed due to light numbers of FESCo members skip next weeks meeting
16:39:23 <maxamillion> +1
16:39:24 <kalev> +1
16:39:27 <dgilmore> +1
16:39:30 <paragan> +1
16:39:33 <nirik> sure. +1
16:39:36 <sgallagh> +1
16:39:41 <sgallagh> I can take on the week after
16:39:47 <jwb> #agreed due to light numbers of FESCo members skip next weeks meeting
16:39:49 <maxamillion> nirik: there, now take the day off and we better not see you on irc! ;)
16:40:01 <dgilmore> maxamillion++
16:40:02 <zodbot> dgilmore: Karma for maxamillion changed to 14 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
16:40:04 <maxamillion> :D
16:40:05 <Rathann> fine by me
16:40:08 <jwb> #info sgallagh to chair the week after (30-Sept-2016)
16:40:10 <dgilmore> nirik++ take some PTO
16:40:15 <jwb> #topic Open Floor
16:40:19 <nirik> ha. :)
16:40:20 <jwb> anything from anyone
16:41:19 <jwb> 120 seconds and i close
16:41:43 <moto-timo> bye
16:41:46 <dgilmore> just a reminder that beta freeze is on Sept 27th. need to get the last changes in now
16:42:24 <jwb> #info Beta freeze is Sept 27th.  Please ensure your changes are complete and submitted as updates now
16:42:30 * kalev queued a gnome megaupdate to testing just today.
16:42:36 <kalev> 3.22.0 is next week, today's megaupdate is the release candidate
16:42:52 <dgilmore> kalev: nice
16:42:59 <jwb> anything else?
16:43:00 <sgallagh> kalev++
16:43:03 <dgilmore> nada
16:43:30 <jwb> #endmeeting