16:00:03 <maxamillion> #startmeeting FESCO (2017-06-09)
16:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jun  9 16:00:03 2017 UTC.  The chair is maxamillion. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2017-06-09)'
16:00:03 <maxamillion> #meetingname fesco
16:00:03 <maxamillion> #chair maxamillion dgilmore jwb nirik jforbes jsmith kalev sgallagh Rathann
16:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
16:00:03 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann dgilmore jforbes jsmith jwb kalev maxamillion nirik sgallagh
16:00:06 <maxamillion> #topic init process
16:00:07 <maxamillion> .hello maxamillion
16:00:09 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
16:00:22 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
16:00:23 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
16:00:25 <maxamillion> Sorry everyone for the late agenda, I normally put in a calendar reminder for myself when I'm chair and I forgot to this week
16:00:36 <kalev> .hello kalev
16:00:37 <maxamillion> (agenda literally just got sent out :/)
16:00:37 <zodbot> kalev: kalev 'Kalev Lember' <klember@redhat.com>
16:01:05 <jsmith> .hello jsmith
16:01:06 <zodbot> jsmith: jsmith 'Jared Smith' <jsmith.fedora@gmail.com>
16:01:33 <sgallagh> maxamillion: No worries. Looks like a low-stress agenda this week anyway
16:01:46 <maxamillion> sgallagh: indeed, we might actually get out of here early today :)
16:02:43 <maxamillion> hrmmm... we might not even have enough attendance
16:02:53 <kalev> sending out agenda early is probably important if we invite other people to the meeting
16:02:59 <maxamillion> kalev: +1
16:03:01 <kalev> if not, it's probably fine to have late agenda :)
16:03:04 <Rathann> .hello rathann
16:03:05 <zodbot> Rathann: rathann 'Dominik Mierzejewski' <dominik@greysector.net>
16:03:40 <maxamillion> alright, we have quorum
16:03:45 <maxamillion> #topic #1690 F27 Self Contained Changes - Making sudo pip Safe (Again)
16:03:45 <maxamillion> .fesco 1690
16:03:45 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1690
16:03:46 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1690: F27 Self Contained Changes - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1690
16:05:15 <kalev> +1 on the pip changes, seems like steps in a good direction to me
16:05:18 <jsmith> I know there was some discussion around this in the F26 time frame, but I'll admit I don't remember if the outstanding concerns were addressed.
16:05:18 <dgilmore> hola
16:05:32 <jsmith> That being said, I'm generally in favor
16:06:01 <sgallagh> Does anyone remember why this slipped from F26?
16:06:03 <dgilmore> what jsmith said
16:06:12 <sgallagh> Was it just not implemented in time, or were there design issues?
16:06:15 <maxamillion> jsmith: yeah, I'm not sure the concerns are addressed either ... there's one person raising concerns on the mailing list thread but I've not seen response from the Change owner
16:06:41 <jsmith> I'd prefer to push this off a week, and try to stir more discussion
16:06:44 <maxamillion> I'd personally like to see the concerns outlined in the mailing list thread addressed or at least discussed
16:06:47 <maxamillion> jsmith: +1
16:06:50 <jsmith> :-)
16:07:12 <Rathann> Nico had some comments which were not addressed
16:07:17 <maxamillion> Proposal: Defer decision on F27 Self Contained Changes - Making sudo pip Safe (Again) until next week to allow more discussion on devel thread
16:07:31 <maxamillion> +1 to my own propsal (for posterity)
16:07:33 <Rathann> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/3HFI7YKTQQCSNK2VWYWW3H2NGKLPT2PH/
16:07:54 <Rathann> actually it's been over a week since his post
16:07:57 <jsmith> +1 to maxamillion's proposal :-)
16:07:59 <Rathann> and no new replies
16:08:33 <maxamillion> Rathann: yeah, I'll reply to the thread with the result of this vote and if we agree then I'll let them know we're waiting on those concerns to be addressed
16:08:37 <dgilmore> +1
16:08:43 <kalev> +1
16:09:18 <kalev> also, can we invite the proposal owners to the meeting next time? whoever's going to run the next meeting
16:09:33 <dgilmore> seems fair
16:09:40 <maxamillion> kalev: +1
16:09:45 <Rathann> I have to say I'm with Nico on this - I believe it'd be better to disallow running pip as root altogether and encourage people to use per user python virtual environment instead
16:10:10 <maxamillion> Rathann: sgallagh: what's your vote on the Proposal currently on the table?
16:10:21 <Rathann> I'm +1 to deferring
16:10:40 <sgallagh> maxamillion: I'm +1 to deferring
16:10:43 <maxamillion> #agreed Defer decision on F27 Self Contained Changes - Making sudo pip Safe (Again) until next week to allow more discussion on devel thread (+1:6, -1:0, +0:0)
16:10:50 <maxamillion> #topic #1715 F27 System Wide Change: Rsyslog log format change proposal
16:10:51 <maxamillion> .fesco 1715
16:10:51 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1715
16:10:52 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1715: F27 System Wide Change: Rsyslog log format change proposal - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1715
16:10:56 <sgallagh> I was trying to figure out if I had any specific questions to have answered as well
16:11:03 <sgallagh> But I'll send them to the list if I come up with any
16:12:07 <maxamillion> sgallagh: +1
16:12:49 <Rathann> rsyslog log format change lacks even a partial list of affected packages
16:12:52 <sgallagh> So this one makes me hesitate, because changing log formats will *always* cause trouble.
16:13:09 <Rathann> so I'm -1 as-is
16:13:23 <maxamillion> Rathann: we could push back and ask for changes
16:13:28 <Rathann> several examples were given in the devel thread
16:13:31 <sgallagh> And yeah, there's no clear indication that the proposal understands the level of fallout.
16:13:44 <kalev> I wonder how other distros are doing it, does the format change bring us closer to other distros or futher away?
16:13:48 <maxamillion> Rathann: each example I saw came back with a "that supports journal already also" ... did I miss something?
16:13:59 <maxamillion> kalev: that I do not know
16:14:09 <Rathann> maxamillion: yes, I made one such reply myself
16:14:27 <Rathann> but still not everyone wants to use journal and we should at least warn them
16:14:33 <maxamillion> Rathann: agreed
16:14:34 <Rathann> about the log format change
16:14:50 <maxamillion> yeah, I'm not disagreeing
16:16:04 <sgallagh> The "Benefit to Fedora" section isn't terribly compelling either.
16:16:38 <jsmith> Proposal: Postpone and try to stimulate more discussion...
16:16:40 <Rathann> well having the timezone in the logs is a big benefit for me
16:16:49 <kalev> at this point, rsyslog is largely a legacy thing and maybe it makes more sense to keep the legacy format as well then for the few people that might still be using it? not sure
16:16:50 <Rathann> so I'm +1 to the change in general
16:16:53 <sgallagh> "Compliance to international standard" is a meaningless statement. "Matching the behavior of popular distros X, Y and Z" or "Easier to parse with standard tools foo and bar" would be more meaningful
16:17:03 <Rathann> just not without full impact analysis
16:17:38 <kalev> sgallagh: agreed
16:17:39 <sgallagh> Rathann: I'm not saying there are no benefits. I'm saying that the ones listed aren't a good enough justification for me
16:17:55 <Rathann> one use case is sending logs as abuse evidence and having to mention the local timezone in the e-mail
16:18:08 <Rathann> versus having the timezone inside the log already
16:18:33 <sgallagh> Rathann: Sure, but that's  a convenience, not necessarily a technical improvement.
16:18:49 <maxamillion> Rathann: same
16:18:50 <Rathann> agreed
16:18:56 <sgallagh> I'm not opposed to improving convenience, but weighing it against the risks of changing formats is important
16:19:05 <Rathann> exactly
16:19:13 <kalev> can we postpone this one too and ask the change owner to come here next week?
16:19:19 <Rathann> I wonder what's rsyslog upstream default
16:19:19 <maxamillion> I like the change, I just fear it's impact isn't being planned out properly ... or if it is, then it's not shown in the docs available
16:19:32 <sgallagh> kalev: In this case, I'd like to list some specific problems, since we've identified them
16:19:41 <sgallagh> I'll make a proposal
16:19:41 <maxamillion> sgallagh: +1
16:21:03 <sgallagh> proposal: FESCo requests that the Change owners update the proposal with a much more detailed "Benefit to Fedora" section as well as clearly identifying affected packages and processes that would need to be updated if the change occurs.
16:21:15 <Rathann> +1
16:21:20 <sgallagh> +1
16:21:39 <maxamillion> +1
16:21:50 <jsmith> +1
16:21:56 <kalev> +1
16:22:16 <maxamillion> dgilmore: ?
16:24:36 <maxamillion> alright, I'm going to assume we've lost dgilmore
16:24:41 <maxamillion> #agreed FESCo requests that the Change owners update the proposal with a much more detailed "Benefit to Fedora" section as well as clearly identifying affected packages and processes that would need to be updated if the change occurs. (+1:5, -1:0, +0:0)
16:24:52 <maxamillion> #topic #1718 F27 System Wide Change: Node.js 8.x
16:24:52 <maxamillion> .fesco 1718
16:24:53 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1718
16:24:54 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1718: F27 System Wide Change: Node.js 8.x - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1718
16:25:43 <kalev> +1
16:25:43 <sgallagh> +1
16:25:45 <maxamillion> my only concern here is the break in backwards compat, I'd mostly just like to make sure everying packaged in Fedora is good to go for the 8.x change
16:26:37 <maxamillion> sgallagh: iirc you have a lot of background dealing with node.js maintenance ... what's your thoughts on that?
16:26:46 <sgallagh> maxamillion: that's always a concern, but all Node.js major version upgrades have at least some compatibility changes
16:27:24 <maxamillion> sgallagh: ah ok
16:27:36 <sgallagh> It's why we're pushing for it early in the F27 cycle; to give it maximal time to bake in Rawhide
16:27:41 <maxamillion> if this is the norm, then the community won't be caught off guard *cough* python3 *cough*
16:27:45 <maxamillion> sgallagh: +1
16:27:53 <maxamillion> I'm +1 to the change in that case
16:28:00 <maxamillion> Rathann: jsmith: ?
16:28:21 <sgallagh> We also only update to even-numbered versions in Fedora, for support maintenance reasons.
16:28:25 <Rathann> +1
16:28:45 <sgallagh> (The even-numbered ones get 24-30 months of upstream maintenance, but the odd-numbered ones get only 9 months
16:28:56 <jsmith> +1
16:29:06 <Rathann> my only concern is there's just one proposal owner
16:29:27 <sgallagh> Rathann: zsvetlik forgot to include me. I'll add my name
16:29:31 <Rathann> ok
16:29:51 <Rathann> thanks
16:29:57 <maxamillion> #agreed FESCo Approves F27 System Wide Change: Node.js 8.x (+1:5, -1:0, +0:0)
16:30:00 <jsmith> Rathann: i'm pretty sure most (if not all) of the NodeJS SIG is OK with it :-)
16:30:17 <maxamillion> #topic Next week's chair
16:30:22 <maxamillion> who's up?
16:30:23 <sgallagh> jsmith: "OK with it" != "Helping get it done"
16:30:45 <sgallagh> I might miss next week's meeting, but I'll volunteer ahead of time for June 23
16:30:48 <jsmith> sgallagh: Fair enough :-)
16:31:59 <kalev> not sure I can be here next week either
16:33:14 * Rathann too
16:33:29 <dgilmore> maxamillion: sorry distracted, fedex just dropped off my repaired laptop
16:33:32 <Rathann> we have a public holiday on Thursday and everyone's taking Friday off
16:33:47 <maxamillion> alright ...
16:33:54 <maxamillion> I'll do it again next week then
16:34:04 <Rathann> thank you
16:34:15 <kalev> thanks maxamillion
16:34:19 <maxamillion> #info maxamillion to Chair Next Week's Meeting (2017-06-16)
16:34:29 <maxamillion> #topic Open Floor
16:34:38 <maxamillion> anyone have anything for Open Floor?
16:34:49 <sgallagh> maxamillion: Thanks, sorry to stick you with double-duty
16:35:07 <maxamillion> sgallagh: no worries, this week was light duty anyways ;)
16:35:37 <Rathann> nothing from me
16:36:17 <jsmith> maxamillion: I'd cover next week, but I *might* not be here (due to family in town + son's graduation from high school)
16:36:18 <maxamillion> I'll give it a couple minutes and then we'll close up shop
16:36:23 <maxamillion> jsmith: no worires
16:36:25 <maxamillion> worries8
16:36:27 <maxamillion> omg...
16:36:29 <maxamillion> I can't type
16:37:12 * dgilmore looks at maxamillion and sees he is contagious
16:37:24 <dgilmore> the he being me :D
16:37:56 <maxamillion> :)
16:38:08 <maxamillion> alright, let's go ahead and shut it down ... have a good weekend all!
16:38:11 <maxamillion> #endmeeting