16:01:41 <maxamillion> #startmeeting FESCO (2017-06-30)
16:01:41 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jun 30 16:01:41 2017 UTC.  The chair is maxamillion. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:41 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:41 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2017-06-30)'
16:01:41 <maxamillion> #meetingname fesco
16:01:41 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
16:01:42 <maxamillion> #chair maxamillion dgilmore jwb nirik jforbes jsmith kalev sgallagh Rathann
16:01:42 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann dgilmore jforbes jsmith jwb kalev maxamillion nirik sgallagh
16:01:44 <maxamillion> #topic init process
16:01:47 <maxamillion> .hello maxamillion
16:01:48 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
16:02:37 <nirik> morning
16:03:10 <maxamillion> we might not have enough folks in attendance today
16:03:22 <Son_Goku> evening
16:03:55 <Rathann> .hello rathann
16:03:56 <zodbot> Rathann: rathann 'Dominik Mierzejewski' <dominik@greysector.net>
16:04:33 <dgilmore> hi
16:04:46 <Son_Goku> .hello ngompa
16:04:47 <zodbot> Son_Goku: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
16:04:49 <mjw> .hello mjw
16:04:50 <zodbot> mjw: mjw 'None' <fedora@wildebeest.org>
16:05:02 <dgilmore> maxamillion: do not forget that jforbes_vacation said he will run next weeks meeting
16:05:18 <maxamillion> dgilmore: +1
16:05:29 <mjw> hmmm, zodbot still gives the wrong email address and what is that 'None'?
16:06:01 <nirik> mjw: you set 'private' on your account
16:06:07 <nirik> so it won't share your real name...
16:06:12 <maxamillion> still need 1 more for quorum ... :/
16:06:21 <mjw> Anyway, hello mjw 'Mark Wielaard' <mjw@fedoraproject.org>
16:06:33 <mjw> nirik, right, I didn't want it to share my private email address :)
16:07:13 <dgilmore> maxamillion: we have nirik, Rathann, maxamillion , dgilmore right?
16:07:14 <nirik> email is not part of the privacy items...
16:07:21 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy
16:07:34 <mjw> nirik, boo! How do I keep that private then?
16:07:37 <maxamillion> dgilmore: yeah
16:07:54 <dgilmore> mjw: can't
16:07:57 <mjw> sigh
16:09:22 <mjw> And it also shows the other issue I have... "The only exception to this is for your email address, which may still be visible in some Fedora services such as Bugzilla" precisely. Bugzilla is the one service that seems borked :{
16:09:30 <mjw> o well.
16:09:48 <mjw> Here I am, and happy to talk if we are going to discuss any topics where I can help.
16:09:56 <ignatenkobrain> .hello ignatenkobrain
16:09:57 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: ignatenkobrain 'Igor Gnatenko' <ignatenko@redhat.com>
16:10:04 <nirik> mjw: you tried to set your bugzilla account to @fedoraproject.org alias? that won't work without an exception.
16:10:25 <nirik> we can talk about that in #fedora-admin after the meeting (don't mean to derail)
16:10:35 <mjw> nirik, OK
16:12:01 <maxamillion> alright, we're 10 minutes after the hour and don't have quorum ... should we call it?
16:12:37 <jwb> here
16:12:40 <jwb> sorry
16:12:45 <maxamillion> \o/
16:12:58 <maxamillion> alright
16:13:12 <maxamillion> #topic Followups
16:13:14 <maxamillion> #topic #1690 F27 Self Contained Changes (Java system/command setting)
16:13:14 <maxamillion> .fesco 1690
16:13:15 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1690
16:13:16 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1690: F27 Self Contained Changes - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1690
16:15:33 <nirik> ok, so we have one old one first?
16:15:37 <maxamillion> yes
16:15:41 <maxamillion> the Java thing
16:15:54 <maxamillion> I'll bring up the new ones after we finish with "Followups"
16:15:56 <nirik> looking, I am +1 to all of them
16:16:02 <Rathann> I'm +1 to the Java change
16:16:10 <Rathann> be back in 5mins
16:16:24 <dgilmore> +1 to java with the furter explanations
16:16:29 <maxamillion> +1
16:17:08 <maxamillion> jwb: ?
16:17:26 <jwb> +1 to all of them
16:17:36 <maxamillion> #agreed APRROVE: F27 Self Contained Change: Java system/command setting (+1:5, +0:0, -1:0)
16:17:44 <maxamillion> #topic #1715  F27 System Wide Change: Rsyslog log format change proposal
16:17:44 <maxamillion> .fesco 1715
16:17:44 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1715
16:17:45 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1715: F27 System Wide Change: Rsyslog log format change proposal - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1715
16:19:15 <dgilmore> gahh I failed still
16:19:27 <dgilmore> do we have the change owner here?
16:20:09 <maxamillion> dgilmore: doesn't look like it
16:20:20 * Rathann is back
16:20:25 <maxamillion> Rathann: welcome back
16:20:31 <maxamillion> Rathann: we're on #1715
16:21:04 <Rathann> right
16:21:10 <maxamillion> the Change proposal owners still don't seem super motivated to ensure a smooth transition with the follow of the proposed change
16:22:15 <jwb> i'm not getting the overall benefit.  can this be done locally rather than in the package?
16:22:36 <nirik> well, the last thing I see on the list is them talking about logcheck... and offering to see if maintainers wanted help
16:23:07 <nirik> it adds year (meh) and timezone (which could be handy)
16:23:21 <Rathann> apart from ensuring that there's no impact in the default configuration, it'd be nice if the change owner at least talked to the affected package owners/upstream about supporting the new default timestamp format in text logs, otherwise things will break as soon as someone configures them to use rsyslog instead of journal
16:23:47 <maxamillion> nirik: right, but that wasn't the proposal owners who identified those was it? ... it seems as though others are stepping up, and if we're fine with that then fine. I just don't like that there's a relative disregard for the fallout from the change owners
16:24:32 <jwb> i'm 0 at best on this
16:24:36 <nirik> it was the change owner: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/CCO6GK7ULLA2WDWN5HW6SEWVP3THHE35/
16:25:11 <nirik> that was a week ago
16:25:47 <jwb> let's not waste time.  i'm 0 at best, which means we have no quorum to pass this
16:25:49 <maxamillion> nirik:  I was looking at https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/GBVE7XGRE66IGJ2SW5MO6VH677R27MB5/
16:26:05 <maxamillion> jwb: +1
16:26:15 <nirik> ok, dgilmore could see reach out if he wants, but we should move on
16:26:29 <maxamillion> alright, so the question is ... do we want to push this out and attempt to get the concerns addressed or do we just reject the change?
16:26:58 <jwb> tbh, i'd be in favor of rejecting
16:27:06 <dgilmore> I am very hesitant to make the change
16:27:33 <dgilmore> I guess we probably should reject it
16:27:57 <dgilmore> they can resubmit a more detailed proposal for f28
16:28:09 <maxamillion> Proposal: FESCo Rejects F27 System Wide Change: Rsyslog log format change
16:28:45 <maxamillion> +1
16:28:50 <Rathann> +1
16:29:01 <dgilmore> +1
16:29:25 * nirik would prefer to give them more time/invite them, but sure, we can always reject and ask them to talk to us if they want to resubmit I suppose.
16:29:41 <jwb> +1
16:30:10 <maxamillion> nirik: if you'd prefer that, just vote +0 or -1 to this proposal and suggest more time ... I'm good either way, but we've been on this for weeks with little movement
16:30:17 <jwb> nirik: i really don't see the point in waiting longer.  this is a change that can be done locally if people want to modify the format and there's no overriding benefit from a distribution standpoint that i can see
16:30:29 <nirik> sure, +1 lets move on
16:30:40 <dgilmore> nirik: 2017-07-04 Change Checkpoint: Proposal submission deadline (System Wide Changes)
16:30:58 <maxamillion> #agreed FESCo Rejects F27 System Wide Change: Rsyslog log format change (+1:5, +0:0, -1:0)
16:31:00 <dgilmore> all systemwide changes need to be locked down next week
16:31:16 <maxamillion> #topic New Business
16:31:17 <maxamillion> #topic #1690 F27 Self Contained Changes (PHP 7.2 and Remove krb5-appl)
16:31:17 <maxamillion> .fesco 1690
16:31:18 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1690
16:31:19 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1690: F27 Self Contained Changes - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1690
16:31:25 <maxamillion> I'm +1 to both of these
16:32:08 <Rathann> I'm slightly worried what happens if some "important" or widely depended on package is not compatible with 7.2
16:32:26 <Rathann> and cannot be fixed in time
16:32:28 <dgilmore> +1 to php, not sure krb5-appl needs a change for it
16:32:52 <nirik> +1 to both
16:32:55 <dgilmore> Rathann: that is a risk with every major language bump
16:32:55 <jwb> +1 to both
16:33:20 <Rathann> well, I have confidence in Remi, so +1
16:33:37 <maxamillion> Rathann: that's honestly a problem that've had with all languages for quite some time, I think one of the biggest ones in the past was moving away from ruby 1.8 and moving to rails4 ... there were a lot of backwards incompat changes there
16:33:47 <maxamillion> Rathann: also, confidence in Remi +1
16:34:03 <Rathann> and +1 to the krb5-appl though I agree with dgilmore that it might be an overkill to have a Change for this
16:34:14 <Rathann> right
16:34:19 <maxamillion> #agreed APPROVED: F27 Self Contained Changes (PHP 7.2 and Remove krb5-appl) (+1:5, +0:0, -1:0)
16:34:31 <maxamillion> #topic #1722 F27 System Wide Change: Separate Subpackage and Source Debuginfo
16:34:34 <maxamillion> .fesco 1722
16:34:35 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1722: F27 System Wide Change: Separate Subpackage and Source Debuginfo - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1722
16:34:37 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1722
16:34:46 <jwb> our guidance on what is and isn't a Change is poor.  mostly because despite good intentions, it's still a "know it when you see it" thing.  i'd rather default to people filing Changes
16:34:59 <maxamillion> jwb: +
16:35:00 <maxamillion> +1 *
16:35:26 <jwb> i am +1 for anything that makes debuginfo better
16:35:31 <mjw> I only filed it because I was told even though it was approved for f26 it needed to be resubmitted for f27
16:35:51 <mjw> Or was the guidance issue not for me/this topic?
16:36:05 <dgilmore> mjw: not you
16:36:09 <maxamillion> mjw: previous
16:36:14 <mjw> (We pulled it for f26 because it wasn't ready btw.)
16:36:19 <maxamillion> yeah, I'm +1 for this also
16:36:28 <dgilmore> i am +1 to making it better
16:36:44 <ignatenkobrain> are we going to split debuginfo packages as part of this change? what about debugsource?
16:37:08 <dgilmore> mjw: I am planning to have a releng meeting to review changes on monday. we should have some feedback on any changes needed on the releng side then
16:37:10 <mjw> Both are currently disabled by default, packages need to opt in explicitly for now.
16:37:12 <nirik> +1 here.
16:37:21 <ignatenkobrain> or we are just making that possible?
16:37:33 <Rathann> +1 to the debuginfo change
16:37:43 <maxamillion> #agreed APPROVED F27 System Wide Change: Separate Subpackage and Source Debuginfo (+1:5, +0:0, -1:0)
16:37:56 <maxamillion> #topic #1723 F27 System Wide Change: Parallel Installable Debuginfo
16:37:56 <maxamillion> .fesco 1723
16:37:56 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1723
16:37:56 <mjw> I would like to make both enabled by default, but am I little afraid to do that right before the mass rebuild.
16:37:59 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1723: F27 System Wide Change: Parallel Installable Debuginfo - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1723
16:38:06 <mjw> But, we are on the next topic already :)
16:38:30 <mjw> This one is enabled by default and has been for some months now BTW.
16:38:43 <maxamillion> apologies, reasonably large list of tickets today ... trying to move quickly
16:38:56 <dgilmore> mjw: it will be useful after the mass rebuild on the 12th right?
16:39:00 <mjw> I know of only one remaining bug (well two duplicates) which have a patch upstream, but need review/approval first.
16:39:03 <ignatenkobrain> dgilmore: yep
16:39:12 <mjw> dgilmore, yes.
16:40:48 <Rathann> mjw: by the way, why are some /usr/lib/debug/* files ending up in main packages intead of -debuginfo?
16:41:08 <maxamillion> mjw: is the hidden dir patch for rpmlint that was raised in the mailing list on the radar along with this Change?
16:41:33 <mjw> Rathann, No /usr/lib/debug files should be. But you might be referring to the /usr/lib/.build-id files?
16:41:40 <mjw> maxamillion, Which is that ^ topic.
16:41:40 <Rathann> ah, yes
16:41:50 <Rathann> mjw: yes, /usr/lib/.build-id
16:41:58 <mjw> maxamillion, I don't know if it is on the rpmlint maintainer's radar.
16:42:09 <mjw> there has been a fix for a couple of weeks/months
16:42:21 <mjw> I can poke the bug again.
16:42:22 <maxamillion> mjw: ah ok
16:42:49 <maxamillion> alright, I'm +1 to the Change
16:42:59 <jwb> +
16:43:03 <jwb> er, +1
16:44:41 <dgilmore> +1 here also
16:44:41 * nirik is +1 to this also
16:45:26 <Rathann> I'm +1 to the change
16:46:09 <maxamillion> #agreed APPROVE F27 System Wide Change: Parallel Installable Debuginfo (+1:5, +0:0, -1:0)
16:46:18 <maxamillion> #topic #1724 F27 System Wide Change: Kerberos KCM credential cache by default
16:46:21 <maxamillion> .fesco 1724
16:46:22 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1724: F27 System Wide Change: Kerberos KCM credential cache by default - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1724
16:46:24 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1724
16:46:40 <nirik> +1. I look forward to it.
16:47:14 <dgilmore> +1
16:47:20 <jwb> +1
16:47:49 <Rathann> +1
16:48:05 <maxamillion> I'd like to make sure we have support in GNOME for KCM before it goes default
16:48:30 <Rathann> though I seem to remember there were some compatibility issues with some applications like GOA
16:48:39 <maxamillion> which is apparently filed upstream, I'm just concerned about switching before the support is there and having what appears to be a regression to users of GNOME Online Accounts
16:48:46 <maxamillion> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=779140
16:49:02 <maxamillion> #link https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=779140
16:49:21 <maxamillion> I'm not against the change, just want to make sure that stuff is in good shape
16:50:58 <maxamillion> that's mostly just a feedback thing we can follow up thing, I don't think it should block at this point
16:51:01 <maxamillion> +1
16:51:02 <maxamillion> #agreed APPROVE F27 System Wide Change: Kerberos KCM credential cache by default (+1:5, +0:0, -1:0)
16:51:08 <maxamillion> #topic #1725 F27 System Wide Change: Enable TRIM pass down to encrypted disks
16:51:11 <maxamillion> .fesco 1725
16:51:12 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1725: F27 System Wide Change: Enable TRIM pass down to encrypted disks - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1725
16:51:13 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1725
16:51:17 <jwb> +0.5
16:52:19 <nirik> +1
16:53:26 <Rathann> I'm always worried about wording like "majority of users" or "negligible performance impact" without even anecdotal evidence
16:53:39 <maxamillion> Rathann: same
16:54:03 <Rathann> this can also be done manually by each user who wants to enable it
16:54:21 <maxamillion> also, I'm not sure exactly what this run on sentence means "while the argument for kernel default setting not to enable the discard is still strong one it doesn't change the fact that vast majority of users (with SSDs) doesn't want to sacrifice better performance of drive with discard/trim enabled for the sake of secrecy"
16:54:46 <jwb> i read that as "it's not safe for upstream, but screw it!"
16:55:03 <maxamillion> jwb: yeah...
16:56:03 <maxamillion> I'm willing to give them more time to improve the case that this is a positive Change for Fedora, but I'm -1 as the Change is written
16:57:19 <Rathann> I am with maxamillion
16:58:32 <maxamillion> Proposal: Request more infromation about the security impact of this change, more technical details (including real numbers on performance impact), and raw evidence of "vast majority of users" wishes (questionaires, user studies, etc)
16:58:46 <jwb> +1
16:58:47 * maxamillion is +1 to his own proposal
16:59:04 <Rathann> I'm not holding out much hope there, I asked for this before
16:59:08 <Rathann> but sure, +1
16:59:27 <nirik> sure +1
17:00:03 <maxamillion> dgilmore: ?
17:00:36 <maxamillion> Rathann: I'm open to giving Change owners a chance to clarify their intentions
17:01:10 <Rathann> on the other hand, Chris Murphy said this on the ml:
17:01:14 <Rathann> That just causes device mapper to pass trim issued to the dmcrypt
17:01:14 <Rathann> device to the underlying block device; it doesn't actually issue trim.
17:01:45 <dgilmore> sorry got distractd
17:01:53 <dgilmore> +1 for trim
17:02:04 <maxamillion> dgilmore: that's not what we're voting on
17:02:08 <maxamillion> dgilmore: there's proposal on the table
17:02:10 <dgilmore> sorry
17:02:18 <dgilmore> +1 to more data
17:02:40 <maxamillion> #agreed Proposal: Request more infromation about the security impact of this change, more technical details (including real numbers on performance impact), and raw evidence of "vast majority of users" wishes (questionaires, user studies, etc) (+1:5, +0:0, -1:0)
17:02:49 <maxamillion> #topic #1726 F27 System Wide Change: Fedora 27 Boost 1.64 upgrade
17:02:49 <maxamillion> .fesco 1726
17:02:49 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1726
17:02:50 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1726: F27 System Wide Change: Fedora 27 Boost 1.64 upgrade - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1726
17:03:03 <dgilmore> +1 to boost
17:03:03 <nirik> another release another boost. +1
17:03:09 <maxamillion> +1
17:03:28 <Rathann> I already voted in the ticket: +1
17:03:58 <maxamillion> we have a +1 from jwb in ticket, so I'll move on
17:04:00 <maxamillion> #agreed APPROVE F27 System Wide Change: Fedora 27 Boost 1.64 upgrade (+1:5, +0:0, -1:0)
17:04:04 <Rathann> and jwakely fixed the copy&paste errors ;)
17:04:05 <jwb> sorry, yes
17:04:08 <maxamillion> #topic #1727 F27 System Wide Change: Golang 1.9
17:04:08 <maxamillion> .fesco 1727
17:04:09 <maxamillion> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1727
17:04:11 <zodbot> maxamillion: Issue #1727: F27 System Wide Change: Golang 1.9 - fesco - Pagure - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1727
17:04:26 <jwb> typing while eating and participating in another meeting is difficult
17:04:35 <jwb> i'm +1 for golang
17:04:42 <maxamillion> I'm +1 to Rathann's comment about golang packaging guidelines
17:04:48 <nirik> +1. I really would like guidelines final tho
17:04:53 <maxamillion> but also +1 for golang
17:05:01 <dgilmore> what nirik said
17:05:27 <Rathann> well, jcajka said he was going to move forward there, so I'll take his word for it and +1 to the change
17:05:37 <maxamillion> Rathann: +1
17:05:38 <jcajka> I would like to note that guidelines are rather unrealted to this change, but I would love them to see them too
17:06:06 <maxamillion> #agreed F27 System Wide Change: Golang 1.9 (+1:5, +0:0, -1:0)
17:06:19 <Rathann> jcajka: especially since I have a piece of software written in golang that I'd like to package now
17:06:21 <maxamillion> #topic Next week's chair
17:06:38 <Rathann> I have no idea if I'll be here next week
17:06:53 <maxamillion> #info jforbes previously agreed to Chair next week
17:07:02 <maxamillion> #topic Open Floor
17:07:08 <jcajka> Rathann: I will bug and help  jchaloup to pushed them forward
17:07:16 <maxamillion> jcajka++
17:07:17 <zodbot> maxamillion: Karma for jcajka changed to 1 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:08:26 <maxamillion> Anyone have anything for Open Floor?
17:08:27 <dgilmore> #info all system wide changes must be submitted by July 4th for fesco to review next week
17:08:34 <maxamillion> dgilmore: +1
17:09:07 <Rathann> isn't that a holiday in the US?
17:09:11 <maxamillion> it is
17:09:39 <dgilmore> Rathann: it is, but its the date in the schedule
17:09:51 <Rathann> ok
17:09:53 <dgilmore> realistically they should be all in already
17:10:03 <nirik> FYI, I will be here next week, but not the week after.
17:10:06 <Rathann> indeed
17:10:19 <dgilmore> nirik: same
17:10:35 <dgilmore> I will be out the entire week starting July 10
17:10:39 <jwb> i'm out next week
17:11:09 <maxamillion> I'll be here next week
17:12:58 <maxamillion> alright, I'll give it another minute and then close up shop
17:14:28 <dgilmore> gracias maxamillion
17:14:29 <dgilmore> :D
17:15:05 <maxamillion> thanks for coming everyone!
17:15:06 <maxamillion> #endmeeting