15:02:00 #startmeeting FESCO (2019-06-07) 15:02:01 Meeting started Fri Jun 7 15:02:00 2019 UTC. 15:02:01 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 15:02:01 The chair is zbyszek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:02:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:02:01 The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2019-06-07)' 15:02:01 #meetingname fesco 15:02:01 #chair nirik, bowlofeggs, jforbes, zbyszek, bookwar, sgallagh, contyk, mhroncok, otaylor 15:02:01 The meeting name has been set to 'fesco' 15:02:01 Current chairs: bookwar bowlofeggs contyk jforbes mhroncok nirik otaylor sgallagh zbyszek 15:02:03 #topic init process 15:02:09 hi 15:02:11 .hello2 15:02:12 jforbes: jforbes 'Justin M. Forbes' 15:02:12 .hello psabata 15:02:15 .hello2 15:02:15 contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' 15:02:15 .hello2 15:02:18 bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' 15:02:21 zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' 15:02:24 .hello2 15:02:25 otaylor: otaylor 'Owen Taylor' 15:02:33 .hello churchyard 15:02:34 mhroncok: churchyard 'Miro Hrončok' 15:02:43 * zbyszek 's coffee machine broke. They are sad. 15:02:43 .hello2 15:02:44 bookwar: bookwar 'Aleksandra Fedorova' 15:03:06 RIP zbyszek's coffee machine 15:03:20 mhroncok: heh, yeah 15:03:22 .hello2 15:03:23 bowlofeggs: bowlofeggs 'Randy Barlow' 15:03:43 So we have quorum. Let's start. 15:03:54 = Followups = 15:03:54 #topic #2063 F31 Change: Ibus-typing-booster default for Indian languages 15:03:57 .fesco 2063 15:03:59 zbyszek: Issue #2063: F31 Change: Ibus-typing-booster default for Indian languages - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2063 15:03:59 https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2063 15:04:33 +1 to reject 15:04:40 +1 to reject as well 15:04:45 +1 to reject 15:04:53 +1 reject 15:04:53 +1 too (as in the ticket) 15:05:48 #agree This change is rejected due to lack of response. Change owner is free to resubmit it again. (+5, 0, 0) 15:05:58 #topic #2140 F31 System-Wide Change: RPM 4.15 15:05:58 .fesco 2140 15:05:58 https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2140 15:06:00 zbyszek: Issue #2140: F31 System-Wide Change: RPM 4.15 - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2140 15:06:14 ah, an easy one 15:06:22 python3-brainwash 15:06:28 It involves Python and Unicode, so it's fun :) 15:06:39 the change in rpm is good 15:06:57 I'm not sure if the "depracation" steps were good and I said everyhting on the ticket 15:07:16 yeah, sorry for the mess 15:07:52 I think the only way out is forward at this point... 15:08:09 agreed 15:08:10 I'd be much happier if we had a backward compatible way of using the python bindings 15:10:09 mhroncok: I think it's too late for that, because some of the projects have been update to expect the new incompatible API 15:10:27 zbyszek: the new api should remain as is 15:10:38 I just want the old API to have a flag to opt for this 15:11:24 But isn't there just one API (no "old" and "new"), that changed the return value? A I missing something? 15:11:33 that's a different API 15:11:58 what is returned is an essential part of an API 15:12:44 brbr, sorry, I got a package delivery 15:12:44 the issue is that the old API doesn't make any sense 15:12:52 I am a bit confused.. the topic says rpm-4.15 but we seem to be talking about python3-brainwash 15:13:50 yes, technically these are separate issues 15:14:05 as we changed the API in the 4.14 package already 15:14:11 * mhroncok is back 15:14:52 ... and 4.14 is in F30 already ... 15:15:05 this was rawhide only AFAIK 15:15:11 I voted in ticket, and my +1 doesn't change 15:15:26 mhroncok: was the package another cup of coffee to replace the one bcotton took? 15:16:21 I've said everything I needed to say in the ticket. if FESCo is OK with this, we should vote and proceed 15:16:52 I'm +1 15:17:11 +1 too, as in the ticket 15:17:20 I'm 0 15:18:14 nirik was +1 in the ticket 15:18:16 +1 15:19:14 (I don't think we should be nit-picking the details of the Python bindings at the fesco level - cleaning up from earlier api messes is always hard and there is seldom a perfect way forwrad) 15:19:56 i guess since the API break is already in rawhide, i'll be +1 too 15:20:00 what I'm saying is that this will break the packager stack 15:20:18 rawhide has hacks that make rpmlint work 15:20:48 "i guess since the API break is already in rawhide, i'll be +1 too" these votes always make me the saddest 15:21:04 Yeah, but the change is about rawhide, so the breakage is in rawhide too? 15:21:10 bookwar: vote? 15:21:46 zbyszek: rawhide is half broken, this makes it broken 15:22:08 bcotton: heh, yeah… ☹ 15:22:22 i also wish they were following semver 15:22:36 4.14 → 4.15 should not have an API break 15:23:18 zbyszek: +1 on change 15:23:30 -5 on how we handled it :) 15:23:51 #agreed Change is accepted (+6, 1, -0) 15:24:09 mhroncok: let's work on unbreaking rawhide 15:24:21 #action mhroncok to put a I've told you so note in the top drawer 15:24:44 #topic #2139 F30: change default stream for avocado module 15:24:44 .fesco 2139 15:24:44 https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2139 15:24:45 zbyszek: Issue #2139: F30: change default stream for avocado module - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2139 15:24:52 zbyszek: yes, I'm trying, but there is no sane way of doing it without breaking the code on older fedoras 15:25:28 ad avocado: I voted +1 because I didn't know this cannot be done 15:25:39 is there actually anyhing to vote on, since it is impossible? 15:25:51 i was -1 in the ticket due to the stable users not being able to follow it 15:25:53 I was under the impression that this request was withdrawn because of this 15:26:23 me too 15:26:26 I think we can close this 15:26:49 It was withdrawn for F30 certainly. 15:26:57 but -1 if we need a vote, for the same technical and procedural reasons 15:27:06 well, it was about f30 15:27:15 Right, I misunderstood. 15:27:29 Nothing to see here, let's move along. 15:28:17 #info the request has already been withdrawn 15:28:22 #topic #2135 set default module stream for cri-o 15:28:23 .fesco 2135 15:28:23 https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2135 15:28:24 zbyszek: Issue #2135: set default module stream for cri-o - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2135 15:29:23 Sorry, I thought I voted in the ticket on this one, but seemingly not 15:29:26 "best to hold off on this for now" 15:29:28 mhroncok and bowlofeggs voted +1 in the ticket 15:29:36 this seems to be on hold waiting for some idea of how to coordinate this with k8s 15:30:03 And that was why. 15:31:24 I don't think that's a blocker for this 15:31:56 it's a potential follow-up work but I think I can give +1 to this 15:32:10 contyk: I think when the requester says "best to hold off on this for now" it is specifically a blocker for us moving forward 15:32:21 having a default stream means you get *something* when you try dnf install cri-o, rather than an error 15:32:36 but okay, up to them 15:32:49 jforbes: well I think we can still give the maintainer the right to do so, even if they decide not to 15:33:48 mhroncok: just as likely they might decide to do something else though. 15:34:11 ok. let's move on? 15:34:23 seems the right course 15:35:02 OK, let's move on. 15:35:46 #topic #2136 F32 Self-Contained Change: Track Changes in Taiga 15:35:46 .fesco 2136 15:35:47 https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2136 15:35:48 zbyszek: Issue #2136: F32 Self-Contained Change: Track Changes in Taiga - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2136 15:35:55 Another controversial one. 15:36:34 everyone loves it except mhroncok ;-) 15:37:01 bcotton: oh I love it personally, except I'm afraid that it's another bump on the packaging road 15:37:17 mhroncok: i understand the concern 15:37:36 everybody seems to only see the program manager's pov 15:37:41 what i haven't seen in the community feedback is specific problems other than "i like the wiki and it works" 15:38:37 Hmm, thinking about it some more, I think that some of the concerns might be valid. 15:39:03 i'm +1 15:39:08 can we maybe ask directly owners of 5 or ten last changes to provide explicit feedback? 15:39:18 i have a bias toward that point of view because it's mine, but i have tried to make it minimally impactful to change owners, who will generally interact with the process a lot less 15:39:22 I feel there's a *general* move away from the wiki, so I'm not sure mediawiki competency is a core Fedora skill these days 15:39:27 can we get a demo for the change owners to try? 15:39:30 otaylor++ 15:39:31 bcotton: Karma for otaylor changed to 2 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:39:34 We're essentially "buying a cat in a bag", because the implementation is yet to be written. 15:39:36 otaylor +1 15:39:47 I'm +1, it's just a different tool 15:40:02 zbyszek: heh, i haven't heard that idiom before 15:40:16 its a pig in a poke with claws 15:40:20 zbyszek: yes and no. we could use taiga without the tool that's being written, but it's definitely easier with the tool 15:40:25 bowlofeggs: it's a medieval thing, about buying a pig and returning to the farm with a cat 15:40:26 Czechs buy a rabbit in a bag 15:40:29 zbyszek++ for "cat in a bag" 15:40:29 bcotton: Karma for zbyszek changed to 1 (for the current release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 15:40:31 imo, this doesn't have to be a permanent change - we can try it for f31 and see how it goes? 15:40:37 the wiki isn't going away any time soon 15:41:05 bowlofeggs: s/1/2/ but that's a good point. if this is awful, we can either fix it or go back to the wiki. there's a very easy reversion available 15:41:07 bowlofeggs: who decides how it goes? 15:41:22 mhroncok: fesco, i suppose? 15:41:25 (unless the wiki shuts off between now and then, which is an entirely different problem we'll have to tackle) 15:41:44 i haven't heard anyone suggest turning off the wiki - it's still used for a lot of things 15:42:07 sounds fair. we test it on f32, once that is over, we reevaluate it on fesco level and the contindency is to put everything back on the wiki 15:42:22 yeah, i think the wiki will continue to exist for a long time, but the council in particular and the community generally seems to be pushing toward its use as a scratch space, not for permanent information 15:42:24 *contingency 15:43:02 i honestly think taiga will work nicely for this 15:43:14 I hope so 15:43:48 proposal: We ask for the new tooling to be implemented, and once it's functional, we'll evaluate whether it's ready to be used for the F32 changeset. 15:43:52 plus, if it doesn't, bcotton owes each of us $5 15:44:02 i honestly would prefer to have pull requests into git repo with markdown, but i guess this is not an option nowdays 15:44:03 (that's in the tiny print that nobody reads!) 15:44:14 so let's try taiga 15:44:25 bcotton: is there taiga work to be done to prepare for this? in particular, is it be possible given current setup to have a project in taiga that any Fedora contributor can easily enter an issue into? 15:44:50 not asking for discussion now, but... i designed this change with the idea that it's changing no policies, just changing how we implement them. but it's also a good time for fesco to think about if it *wants* some policy changes 15:45:09 zbyszek: +1, though i would also +1 a more lenient proposal that just says "the proposal is approved" 15:45:32 bookwar: there are some advantages to that idea, but it also has some drawbacks. happy to have that conversation later if you'd like :-) 15:46:09 zbyszek: +1 15:46:12 otaylor: it just requires some ACL changes on the project 15:46:39 bowlofeggs: we generally have been wary of accepting proposals for solutions that are yet to be written. In this case, pac23 is a new contributor, and it's quite likely that they underestimate the coding work required. 15:46:57 zbyszek: pac23 has previous fedora contribution experience 15:47:04 I'd very much prefer to have an explicit sign-off on the new tooling before we put it into production. 15:47:14 zbyszek: but i would also argue that fesco should not be voting based on the tooling 15:47:35 bcotton: I agree with that as well 15:47:39 bcotton: OK - adding people to the silverblue project has been really confusing/hard, but maybe that's because we've been going through an invitation code path 15:47:42 bcotton: and I woild dissagree 15:47:43 my +1 in ticket stands for a general approval 15:47:45 *would 15:47:50 the tooling isn't fesco's concern, really, because i'm mostly the one impacted by the tool. the question for fesco is whether or not using taiga is appropriate 15:47:58 if the tooling is horrible, we don't want our contributors to be forced to use it 15:47:59 yeah i personally think it's ok for us to approve the general concept 15:48:15 we can file new tickets later if there are problems with implementation 15:48:20 bcotton: so the tool is only for you? 15:48:21 mhroncok: the contributors won't necessarily be using the script pac23 is writing 15:48:31 necessarily? 15:48:50 mhroncok: the goal is to have a contributor-facing part of the tool which will allow CLI-based submission of changes to taiga 15:49:03 but the core functionality of the tool is in the copy/paste work that i do to manage changes now 15:49:21 bcotton: but how would that work? A change is many paragraphs of text... Are we suppposed to provide that on the commadn line? 15:49:28 i guess i haven't made that clear enough 15:49:54 zbyszek: it will be interactive with a call to $EDITOR for the big blobs of text 15:50:07 bcotton: can we sid down with vondruch and you next week and try to file an example change in taiga? 15:50:20 mhroncok: sure 15:50:25 I think having something specific would help here 15:50:47 bcotton: can we postpone the decision for next meeting? 15:50:48 zbyszek: but there will be no *requirement* for the contributors to use the tool 15:50:49 bcotton: But you will be able to file a change through taiga, right? the cli thjing is optional? 15:51:06 otaylor: exactly. i expect most people will use the taiga web interface. the cli is just a nice-to-have 15:51:19 mhroncok: i'm okay with postponement 15:51:43 bcotton: do you have an example issue? 15:53:04 #link https://teams.fedoraproject.org/project/bcotton-test-changes-tracker/issue/3 15:53:43 ^^ is an example issue 15:53:56 If we want to postpone that is fine, but I am counting plenty of +1s in ticket. Are you expecting to change people's votes with the postponement? 15:54:07 #link https://teams.fedoraproject.org/project/bcotton-test-changes-tracker/us/1?kanban-status=29 15:54:20 I see there's history... which is good. 15:54:21 ^^ example user story (basically after a change is announced) 15:54:26 This Issue has been promoted to US:#4 Switch to Taiga for Change proposals 15:54:30 what does that mean? 15:55:19 But I also see that the history is wrong :( I changed systemd-wide-change from false to true to false, and "6 activities" only captured the second step :( 15:55:20 mhroncok: the way it works is that the contributor would submit an issue and it gets converted to a user story when it gets announced to the mailing list. this makes it easier to do back and forth if the change isn't complete (e.g. doesn't have a check with releng first) 15:56:26 Never mind, it probably was "true" in the beginning. 15:56:28 zbyszek: race condition, maybe? you probably set it to true right after i did 15:57:09 Oops, something happened... 15:57:09 Our Oompa Loompas are sad, your changes were not saved! 15:57:46 from the first glance, it appears very broken 15:57:57 migth be the demo effect 15:58:11 it is 15:58:15 Taiga generally works alright 15:58:15 but to echo jforbes's question: is the expectation that a postponement might change some +1s to -1s or is the expectation that it would make the decision unanimous 15:59:14 yeah, and taiga has a longer login timeout, which means you don't get bitten by the "you got distracted while editing a wiki page and hahah i didn't actually save your edits" which i have encountered more times than i am willing to admit :-) 15:59:20 Side note, we waste a *lot* of time trying to make decisions unanimous. There is no need for FESCo decisions to be unanimous, and I don't think most people care if they are or not 15:59:49 I'm trying to play this safe. if you'd rather vote me over, go 16:00:36 I think it is a good idea to sit down and see how would a change be filed before we approve this 16:00:37 I'd be much happier to have mhroncok and bcotton and vondruch go over an issue to test this. 16:01:28 * mhroncok got an email: You've been Taigatized! 16:01:52 zbyszek: +1 16:02:10 we can overvote it, but we rather address the feedback we got 16:02:34 OK, so we have at least three votes for waiting. 16:02:37 bcotton: one thing that bothers me: the US is immutable for me 16:02:38 i'm ok with further inspection, and i'm also ok with just approving the change ☺ 16:02:50 now normally when we receive feedback on changes, we adapt 16:04:27 I'm +1 for just approving, but people would rather discuss in more detail with bcotton, then let's move on, and revisit in a few weeks 16:04:33 mhroncok: that's intentional, but also changeable. i can either open up the permissions or make it so that the conversion to a user story happens *after* fesco approves it 16:04:48 let's not delay it to much, if you can organize this try-out next week - let's wait, if it is not done by next friday - let's vote as it is 16:05:05 Yes, we can do this next week. 16:05:13 bookwar: +1 16:05:20 if vondruch cannot, we'll do without him 16:05:33 assuming bcotton can 16:06:03 action bcotton to test the issue filing process with mhroncok and vondruch. 16:06:15 zbyszek: # 16:06:15 mhroncok: for sure. by EOD monday i'll make sure it's ready for a trial run. it doesn't necessarily have to be interactive (and maybe it's better if it *isn't*) 16:06:21 #action bcotton to test the issue filing process with mhroncok and vondruch. 16:06:43 #info We'll revisit next week. 16:06:52 OK, let's move on. 16:06:53 #topic Next week's chair 16:07:09 I can do next week 16:07:17 action contyk will chair next meeting 16:07:22 #action contyk will chair next meeting 16:07:30 Great, thanks. 16:07:36 #topic Open Floor 16:08:20 Anyone? If not, I'll close in a minute… 16:08:26 don't forget to vote I guess 16:08:47 already did 16:08:50 #link http://elections.fedoraproject.org/ 16:09:04 #info Voting closes in 13 days 16:10:07 OK. Thanks you for attending. 16:10:09 #endmeeting