14:59:49 <sgallagh> #startmeeting FESCO (2020-05-18)
14:59:49 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon May 18 14:59:49 2020 UTC.
14:59:49 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:59:49 <zodbot> The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:59:49 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:59:49 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2020-05-18)'
14:59:49 <sgallagh> #meetingname fesco
14:59:49 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
14:59:49 <sgallagh> #chair nirik, ignatenkobrain, decathorpe, zbyszek, bookwar, sgallagh, contyk, mhroncok, dcantrell
14:59:49 <sgallagh> #topic init process
14:59:49 <zodbot> Current chairs: bookwar contyk dcantrell decathorpe ignatenkobrain mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
15:00:05 <bookwar> .hello2
15:00:06 <zodbot> bookwar: bookwar 'Aleksandra Fedorova' <alpha@bookwar.info>
15:00:11 <sgallagh> .hello2
15:00:11 <nirik> morning
15:00:11 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
15:00:46 <decathorpe> .hello2
15:00:47 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
15:01:20 <contyk> .hello psabata
15:01:21 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
15:01:23 <zbyszek> .hello2
15:01:24 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
15:02:25 <mhroncok_cell> Hey. Will be by my laptop in 5 minutes, sorry.
15:02:27 <sgallagh> OK, who locked mhroncok in a cell?
15:02:34 <mhroncok_cell> Heh
15:03:04 <sgallagh> We're just missing dcantrell and ignatenkobrain so I'll get started
15:03:05 <zbyszek> Aren't we all as-if in a cell now?
15:03:29 <ignatenkobrain> .hello2
15:03:30 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: ignatenkobrain 'Igor Raits' <igor.raits@gmail.com>
15:03:33 <sgallagh> #topic #2384 Election Interview Questions — FESCo (Fedora 32)
15:03:33 <sgallagh> .fesco 2384
15:03:36 <zodbot> sgallagh: Issue #2384: Election Interview Questions — FESCo (Fedora 32) - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2384
15:03:44 <ignatenkobrain> Unfortunately I will be around only from time to time
15:03:55 <sgallagh> I put this on the agenda mostly because it's urgent that we settle this discussion
15:04:00 <dcantrell> .hello2
15:04:01 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
15:04:05 <mhroncok_cell> What's the count for the proposals?
15:04:31 * sgallagh recounts
15:04:57 <contyk> So, proposal 3?
15:05:03 <contyk> Sounds fine to me.
15:05:06 <sgallagh> Right now it looks like 3) is the winner, but there are arguments about its phrasing that we should settle
15:06:10 <zbyszek> I think that people who dislike the wording have a much stronger opinion than people who like it...
15:06:18 <contyk> My preference would be 2, 3, 1; but like decathorpe I'd +1 all of them :)
15:06:59 <dcantrell> sorry I was late, where are we on the agenda?
15:07:12 <mhroncok_cell> I think that the suggested edit changes the question too much
15:07:15 <sgallagh> dcantrell: FESCo questions
15:07:21 <ignatenkobrain> I'm +1 on 3 and 1, -1 on 2
15:07:36 * nirik voted in ticket, I don't know that we need to tweak things too much...
15:08:04 <sgallagh> mhroncok_cell: I agree. I phrased it as somewhat contentious on purpose.
15:08:13 <dcantrell> ah, ok, so that's the one where I said the phrasing of 3 was not ideal
15:08:25 <sgallagh> Because it *is* a difficult question and trying to squirm around it is not doing anyone any good
15:08:56 <sgallagh> dcantrell: and, frankly, there *is* a hostile relationship between (a subset of) Fedora and RHEL.
15:09:07 <dcantrell> I know there is, but that doesn't mean it needs to continue
15:09:22 <dcantrell> how do we expect candidates to answer that question?
15:09:41 <sgallagh> If we knew the answer, why ask the question? ;-)
15:09:59 <dcantrell> the question feels loaded.  you're asking candidates to pick a side and I don't think that's what we should be doing over the long term
15:10:17 <sgallagh> OK, that's fair. I think your phrasing goes too far in the other direction.
15:10:39 <sgallagh> It tries to avoid the controversy entirely
15:10:40 <dcantrell> probably so
15:10:55 <dcantrell> someone better than me on phrasing try to capture what I'm saying then  :)
15:11:03 <nirik> what are the two ends? perhaps we can propose something in the middle?
15:11:19 <dcantrell> that's sort of what I was trying to do I guess, but it's hard to word
15:11:53 <sgallagh> I feel like dcantrell 's phrasing suggests that RHEL and CentOS needs are purely additive.
15:12:21 <sgallagh> Where I was trying to express that sometimes the needs are mutually exclusive due to our different target audiences
15:12:24 <dcantrell> I don't think they are, but is it wrong to think about RHEL and CentOS as downstream of Fedora?  effectively large scale remixes?
15:12:41 <dcantrell> ok, that makes sense
15:13:01 <dcantrell> so fesco needs to continue to figure out where to draw that line.  what parts go in fedora vs. what parts need to remain in rhel only?
15:13:22 <mhroncok> dcantrell: I think you are trying to answer that question here
15:13:30 <mhroncok> at least that how ti feels
15:13:32 <bookwar> "how to deal with requests based on RedHat business needs which conflict with the Fedora community goals?"
15:13:33 <mhroncok> *it
15:13:41 <sgallagh> Yeah, that statement begs the question
15:14:38 <mhroncok> if "at odds" sounds too hostile
15:14:45 <mhroncok> maybe we can simply say "differs"
15:14:46 <bookwar> but, honestly, I just feel that no matter what the questions are, I,or whoever participates in the elections, has the right to not answer to it directly
15:14:48 <dcantrell> yeah, I don't know how else to rephrase things
15:14:48 <sgallagh> bookwar: I'm not sure that's materially different from my phrasing
15:15:12 <sgallagh> bookwar: Well, avoiding questions is a time-honored electoral strategy :-D
15:15:42 <mhroncok> can we do a quick vote on proposal 3 as is?
15:15:43 <bookwar> so these questions are triggers, if they trigger you to answer a bit differently, or to question the question, i think you should have right to do it
15:15:56 <sgallagh> "How should we handle cases where Fedora's and Red Hat Enterprise
15:15:56 <sgallagh> Linux's needs conflict in incompatible ways?"
15:15:57 <nirik> "how do you view the relationship between Fedora and RHEL and CentOS?"
15:16:26 * zbyszek likes
15:16:28 <nirik> I'm getting the impression that my answer to any of these would be 'it depends'
15:16:32 <dcantrell> I like either of those
15:17:30 <zbyszek> I think nirik's version is the best so far. I doesn't presuppose anything, and has a fairly wide scope.
15:17:42 <dcantrell> agreed
15:17:45 * bcotton joins late but just in time, apparently
15:18:09 <sgallagh> I'll abstain from deciding between my and nirik's versions of the question.
15:19:21 * decathorpe likes nirik's version
15:19:46 <bookwar> sgallagh: not falling for charged questions is a skill every linux user needs to learn to effectively participate in the systemd holy wars anyway. So I don't think we have a particular lack of skill in this regard :)
15:20:15 <bookwar> I like the sgallagh's version more, but i am ok with others as well
15:20:18 <nirik> ha
15:20:44 <mhroncok> I like the sgallagh's version more
15:20:56 <mhroncok> we already voted on https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2384#comment-651780
15:21:32 <mhroncok> I don't think we need to change the proposal if it gains enough support
15:22:01 <zbyszek> sgallagh: you're the chair, you decide.
15:22:18 <sgallagh> mhroncok: Well, the only difference between my current and previous proposal is the less-antagonistic last few words
15:22:18 <bookwar> how about bcotton ? :)
15:22:32 <sgallagh> Yeah, let's give the decision over to the election coordinator
15:22:50 <zbyszek> WFM too.
15:22:56 <bcotton> i'll go with sgallagh's edit
15:23:32 <sgallagh> #agreed "FESCo will go with option 3 from https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2384 with a minor edit to phrasing of question 3."
15:24:01 <mhroncok> explicitly what edit?
15:24:57 <sgallagh> #info The edit in question: s/needs are at odds/needs conflict in incompatible ways/
15:25:04 <mhroncok> ack
15:25:38 <zbyszek> Hmm, this edit is gramatically iffy.
15:25:45 <dcantrell> sgallagh: +1
15:25:48 <sgallagh> #topic Next week's chair
15:25:59 <zbyszek> But whatever, OK.
15:26:00 <dcantrell> zbyszek: just run it through grammarly
15:26:18 <zbyszek> the whole part after "conflict" is a needless repetition.
15:26:22 <sgallagh> Next week is a holiday where I am
15:26:36 <zbyszek> I can do it.
15:26:54 <sgallagh> #action zbyszek to chair the 2020-05-25 meeting
15:27:01 <sgallagh> #topic Open Floor
15:27:11 <sgallagh> Do we want to discuss the ELN Modularity question here?
15:27:18 <sgallagh> Or continue discussion on the list/ticket for now?
15:28:05 <dcantrell> list or ticket is fine with me.  the other ticket needs resolution, from my point of view
15:28:29 <sgallagh> Which other ticket?
15:28:53 <dcantrell> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2114
15:28:55 * nirik can give a quick datacenter move status update after others have gone.
15:29:59 * sgallagh is not prepared to do a deep-dive into the entirety of Modularity today
15:30:09 <dcantrell> let's take it to the list and/or the ticket
15:30:11 <sgallagh> So if that's blocking us... let's move along
15:30:12 <zbyszek> I'd vote for the ticket.
15:30:21 <zbyszek> (or list)
15:31:25 <sgallagh> ok, no one is chomping at the bit to discuss this, so let's move to nirik's status update
15:31:33 <sgallagh> #topic Datacenter Move Status Update
15:32:41 <nirik> dc move update: IAD2 (new datacenter): storage has been synced 100%. We will be starting up applications this week. Next week will be working on the buildsystem parts. Then a week of testing, then the move. Still on track to move on week of jun 8th.
15:33:08 <bookwar> nirik++
15:33:08 <zodbot> bookwar: Karma for kevin changed to 15 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:33:09 <nirik> RDU2: not much progress, but some. Working out what we need to do to get networking workable there so we can bring things up.
15:34:22 <nirik> it's gonna be a fun month. :)
15:34:41 <dcantrell> nirik++
15:34:41 <zodbot> dcantrell: Karma for kevin changed to 16 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:34:59 <dcantrell> I appreciate the updates and the work you're doing there.
15:35:04 <bookwar> nirik: thanks for the update
15:35:38 <nirik> I just can't wait for it all be over. ;)
15:35:53 <mhroncok> :)
15:35:57 <dcantrell> seriously  :)
15:36:29 <decathorpe> .moar cookies nirik
15:36:29 <zodbot> here nirik, have some more cookies
15:38:35 <sgallagh> ok, I think that does it then.
15:38:42 <sgallagh> Anyone have anything else?
15:39:40 <sgallagh> Thanks for coming
15:39:43 <zbyszek> Thanks sgallagh.
15:39:44 <sgallagh> #endmeeting