14:00:57 <cverna> #startmeeting FESCO (2020-07-01)
14:00:57 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul  1 14:00:57 2020 UTC.
14:00:57 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:00:57 <zodbot> The chair is cverna. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:57 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:57 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2020-07-01)'
14:00:57 <cverna> #meetingname fesco
14:00:57 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
14:01:05 <cverna> #chair nirik, ignatenkobrain, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, cverna, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
14:01:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku cverna dcantrell decathorpe ignatenkobrain mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
14:01:10 <sgallagh> .hello2
14:01:11 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
14:01:13 <nirik> morning
14:01:14 <dcantrell> .hello2
14:01:15 <cverna> #topic init process
14:01:16 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
14:01:17 <mhroncok> .hello churchyard
14:01:19 <zodbot> mhroncok: churchyard 'Miro Hrončok' <mhroncok@redhat.com>
14:01:19 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
14:01:23 <cverna> hello o/
14:01:24 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
14:01:27 <sgallagh> (Juggling a bunch of things this morning, so I may be slow to reply at times)
14:01:43 <ignatenkobrain> .hello2
14:01:44 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: ignatenkobrain 'Igor Raits' <igor.raits@gmail.com>
14:02:18 <cverna> ok looks like we have almost everyone so let's get started
14:02:28 <cverna> #topic #2390 Request to permit module default streams in ELN
14:02:32 <zbyszek> .hello2
14:02:33 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
14:02:35 <cverna> .fesco 2390
14:02:35 <zodbot> cverna: Issue #2390: Request to permit module default streams in ELN - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2390
14:02:57 <cverna> So do we want to close that ticket and wait for a Change proposal ?
14:03:13 <ignatenkobrain> +1 to close
14:03:16 <sgallagh> Sorry, I've been swamped this past week and haven't filed it.
14:03:18 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain: can you please edit your comment there to actually link to https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/modularity/pull-request/83 instead of fesco ticket 83?
14:03:19 <sgallagh> But +1 for that
14:03:42 <zbyszek> sgallagh: the second part of the PR (rules) look good. I had some gripes about the first part (guidelines), as you have probably seen.
14:03:43 <ignatenkobrain> mhroncok: done
14:03:47 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain++
14:04:01 <ignatenkobrain> mhroncok: actually we just found a bug in pagure :)
14:04:04 <King_InuYasha> I'm mostly good with the guidelines PR
14:04:16 <sgallagh> zbyszek: We can drop that whole section if you prefer.
14:04:24 <sgallagh> It's not really policy anyway.
14:04:26 <ignatenkobrain> [PR#83](https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/modularity/pull-request/83)
14:04:28 <zbyszek> sgallagh: that'd also work, yes.
14:04:35 <mhroncok> sgallagh: also for me
14:04:40 <ignatenkobrain> this is now the link , but Pagure does not make it real link, but keeps it pointing to fesco pr
14:04:49 <cverna> #proposed closing this ticket, the actual policy will be discussed in a Self-Contained Change Proposal
14:05:17 <mhroncok> sgallagh: I would pretty much like to have an approved list of use cases where maintainers should strongly consider modularity, but the current list is weird
14:05:28 <sgallagh> ignatenkobrain: Drop the #
14:05:42 <sgallagh> mhroncok: Can we work on that as a separate thing and unblock this PR?
14:05:51 <mhroncok> sgallagh: I would prefer that, yes
14:05:51 <decathorpe> hello! sorry for being late.
14:05:54 <sgallagh> ack
14:07:08 <zbyszek> cverna: do you think this will make things better? We're close to agreement on #83.
14:07:09 <cverna> ok then I ll close that ticket, and we can vote on Change Proposal when it comes
14:07:58 <cverna> zbyszek: I don't really mind, if you think we don't need a Change Proposal I am happy with that
14:08:21 <mhroncok> cverna: we need some community involvement one way or the other
14:08:31 * nirik nods
14:08:34 <mhroncok> a change proposal is a know and documented way how to do it :)
14:08:42 <mhroncok> *known
14:08:57 <zbyszek> But it's a change to the rules, not tied to the release cadence.
14:09:03 <mhroncok> I am sure that with the nano and btrfs discussions, this will be a lovely change :D
14:09:07 <cverna> yeah so if we have a Change proposal this ticket is then not really useful anymore ?
14:09:26 <mhroncok> correct
14:09:30 <zbyszek> Dunno, sgallagh what's your preference on this?
14:10:08 <mhroncok> sgallagh proposed to do a change proposal on the latest meeting
14:10:10 * cverna is also happy to keep that ticket open until we have the change proposal ticket
14:10:30 <sgallagh> Yeah, I volunteered to do that
14:10:44 <ignatenkobrain> let's just close this ticket and wait for change proposal. I was surprised that we discuss this again :)
14:10:55 <zbyszek> OK, OK.
14:11:01 * mhroncok doesn't care if the ticket is closed or open, but maybe we should untag it with meeting
14:11:12 <ignatenkobrain> mhroncok: it is not tagged with meeting
14:11:17 <mhroncok> ah
14:11:35 <cverna> yeah I put it there because I thought it should be closed :P
14:11:46 <cverna> ok moving to next item
14:12:21 <cverna> #topic #2407 Find a new meeting time slot
14:12:29 <cverna> .fesco 2407
14:12:30 <zodbot> cverna: Issue #2407: Find a new meeting time slot - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2407
14:12:46 <dcantrell> we should hold off on this until the council discusses moving
14:12:47 <cverna> I don't know if we had news from the council on that
14:12:57 <dcantrell> council is still waiting for responses from other members
14:13:07 <cverna> ok thanks for the update dcantrell
14:13:11 <dcantrell> np
14:13:59 <cverna> ok then we have a number of change proposal that we can vote on async
14:14:55 <cverna> so I guess we can move to open floor :)
14:16:07 <cverna> did we want to discuss any other tickets here ?
14:16:15 * mhroncok looks
14:16:17 <sgallagh> There's been a lot of chatter about btrfs...
14:16:24 * King_InuYasha cries
14:16:25 <sgallagh> But I'm fine with letting that play out on the list
14:16:41 <sgallagh> FWIW, I'm generally in favor, having now spoken to the Workstation WG
14:16:48 <King_InuYasha> at least mostly tomatoes and not rocks being thrown at me
14:16:50 <dcantrell> btrfs as default in workstation is a good addition for the year 2020
14:16:51 <mhroncok> I am a tad confused about "Update 3rd party repo policy"
14:16:53 <nirik> I can't beleive it's not... oh sorry, I'll show myself the way out
14:16:59 <ignatenkobrain> there's been a lot of other "interesting" changes :)
14:17:02 * King_InuYasha chuckles
14:17:15 <King_InuYasha> the nano vs vi thing has been... insane
14:17:32 <dcantrell> it was always going to be, but honestly that change is long overdue in Fedora
14:17:36 <King_InuYasha> sure
14:17:41 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: I'm testing micro now as my 'git commit' tool, and I'm liking what I see so far.
14:17:53 <mhroncok> micro is awesome
14:17:57 <King_InuYasha> I want to try out el now that rwmjones mentioned it
14:18:03 <mhroncok> but quite big (not so micro)
14:18:04 <King_InuYasha> just for the nostalgia goggles
14:18:08 <cverna> mhroncok: do you want to discuss that more here ? 3rd party repo ?
14:18:16 <King_InuYasha> err le, not el
14:18:43 <ignatenkobrain> I think we should discuss 3rd party repo policy here. It's been quite confusing and not everybody is sure what to do next
14:18:44 <mhroncok> cverna: I want to basically express my confusion and if people want to follow up, let's do. if not, fine
14:19:01 <King_InuYasha> I honestly have no idea what's even happening with the 3rd party repo policy
14:19:06 <cverna> ok lets take the time to talk about it
14:19:09 <zbyszek> It's being discussed on the PR.
14:19:10 <King_InuYasha> it confuses me and I don't know if I can give good feedback
14:19:16 <cverna> #topic #2416 Update 3rd party repo policy
14:19:26 <cverna> .fesco 2416
14:19:27 <zodbot> cverna: Issue #2416: Update 3rd party repo policy - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2416
14:19:44 <mhroncok> so, i have no idea where the policy actually
14:19:45 <mhroncok> applies
14:19:58 <mhroncok> given the current language, I still read we cannot have pip in Fedora
14:20:11 <King_InuYasha> right, the scope rules make me think we have to kill pip, gem, and even the go compiler
14:20:15 <nirik> it's quite the wall of text there.
14:20:20 <King_InuYasha> that's not acceptable
14:20:51 <King_InuYasha> I don't think that's the intent, but the wording is confusing here
14:20:58 <ignatenkobrain> one thing I am not sure about is whether we should read changes compared to existing policy or ask to make it in a way that we like
14:21:41 <nirik> I would think we could revise at this point, but if we do, it should go thru more of a process than a PR
14:22:07 <zbyszek> ignatenkobrain: the goal is to have a signle conssitent document in the end.
14:22:26 <zbyszek> nirik: We have a ticket open, it's just that it's easier to discuss on the PR.
14:22:41 <nirik> well, I meant discussion on list with the community...
14:22:51 <mhroncok> nirik++
14:23:11 <zbyszek> True. But I think we should have a draft ready before asking for community feedback.
14:23:25 <nirik> but I think the intent here is software shipped with the deliverables... so pip/etc are fine, we should not just 'pip install' stuff for users, they do that themselves
14:23:30 <nirik> agreed
14:23:45 <zbyszek> Right now there's so many questions open that additional feedback from the community would be just confusing.
14:23:54 <decathorpe> from what I've been able to deduce from aday's response, the "must be able to be managed from gnome software" part only applies to the third-party RPM repos shipped with fedora, and not to other tools
14:24:27 <King_InuYasha> I think if it was rescoped to _system software_ (rpms, flatpaks, snaps, etc.), then it would make more sense
14:25:05 <King_InuYasha> I'm not happy personally about mentioning gnome-software specifically in here because this policy applies to all of Fedora
14:25:16 <nirik> I think that was the orig intent.
14:25:17 <King_InuYasha> e.g. kde with plasma-discover
14:25:38 <King_InuYasha> nirik: I think it was too, it's just hard to figure out from wording
14:25:56 * nirik nods. completely agree
14:26:51 <nirik> so perhaps someone(s) would have time to draft a new proposal with added wording ?
14:27:26 <zbyszek> I can do it.
14:27:46 <cverna> thanks zbyszek
14:28:04 <zbyszek> I hope aday is fine with that ;)
14:28:09 <cverna> #action zbyszek to draft a new proposal for the 3rd party repo policy
14:28:12 <King_InuYasha> zbyszek: thank you so much :D
14:28:31 <cverna> zbyszek: I guess you can collaborate with them :)
14:28:43 <dcantrell> zbyszek: thanks
14:28:56 <mhroncok> \o/
14:28:56 <nirik> I think it hopefully will be additive on top of that pr...
14:29:06 <nirik> just more wording to make things more clear
14:30:06 <cverna> anything else on that topic ?
14:30:28 <King_InuYasha> I'm good
14:30:43 <cverna> #topic Next week's chair
14:31:17 <cverna> anyone willing to chair next week ?
14:32:05 <mhroncok> cverna: I can
14:32:29 <cverna> #info mhroncok to chair next week meeting
14:32:31 <cverna> thanks mhroncok
14:32:42 <cverna> #topic Open Floor
14:33:02 <cverna> the floor is yours
14:34:33 <cverna> ok going to close in 1 minute if we don't have anything
14:34:52 <King_InuYasha> got nothing
14:35:08 <dcantrell> I just have the DuckTales theme song stuck in my head
14:35:46 <cverna> lol thanks for sharing :P
14:36:19 <King_InuYasha> oh god
14:36:21 <King_InuYasha> I love that theme :D
14:36:24 <ignatenkobrain> it will be fun voting for the new change proposals that are coming to FESCo :)
14:36:47 <cverna> #endmeeting