14:05:29 <mhroncok> #startmeeting FESCO (2020-08-19)
14:05:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug 19 14:05:29 2020 UTC.
14:05:29 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:05:29 <zodbot> The chair is mhroncok. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:05:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:05:29 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2020-08-19)'
14:05:37 <dcantrell> .hello2
14:05:37 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
14:05:42 <mhroncok> #meetingname fesco
14:05:42 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
14:05:47 <mhroncok> #chair nirik, ignatenkobrain, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, cverna, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
14:05:47 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku cverna dcantrell decathorpe ignatenkobrain mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
14:05:51 <mhroncok> #topic init process
14:06:05 * mhroncok is sorry for starting late
14:06:17 <zbyszek> .hello2
14:06:18 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
14:06:21 <sgallagh> Sorry folks, I have a conflict today
14:06:36 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
14:06:37 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
14:07:00 <mhroncok> dcantrell, zbyszek: hi
14:07:05 <mhroncok> sgallagh: np
14:07:15 <mhroncok> King_InuYasha: hi
14:07:31 <King_InuYasha> mhroncok: yo!
14:07:31 <ignatenkobrain> .hello2
14:07:32 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: ignatenkobrain 'Igor Raits' <igor.raits@gmail.com>
14:08:07 <bcotton> .hello2
14:08:09 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
14:08:25 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain, bcotton: hi
14:08:48 <bcotton> mhroncok: hello! i am half here, half in internal meeting, so please mention me if i don't speak up when you think i should :-)
14:08:57 <mhroncok> bcotton: ack
14:09:17 <mhroncok> we have 5, which is quorum
14:09:41 <mhroncok> #topic #2463 F33 Incomplete changes
14:09:48 <mhroncok> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2463
14:10:07 * King_InuYasha sighs
14:10:08 <decathorpe> .hello2
14:10:10 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
14:10:12 <mhroncok> #topic LLVM 11
14:10:16 <mhroncok> decathorpe: hi
14:10:22 <mhroncok> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/LLVM-11
14:10:27 <decathorpe> sorry, ping me when you need me for votes, but I'm only on my phone
14:11:22 <mhroncok> proposal: give time until the beta freeze
14:11:38 <zbyszek> mhroncok: +1
14:11:46 <dcantrell> +1
14:11:56 <King_InuYasha> +1
14:11:58 <zbyszek> decathorpe ^
14:12:20 <decathorpe> +1
14:12:29 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain: ...
14:13:32 <mhroncok> #agree (+5, 0, -0)  LLVM 11 - give time until the beta freeze
14:13:46 <mhroncok> #topic Introduce module Obsoletes and EOL
14:13:50 <mhroncok> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Module_Obsoletes_and_EOL
14:14:27 <mhroncok> there was no update in the bz or in the fesco ticket what so ever about this
14:14:52 <mhroncok> sgallagh: (if you cannot reply now, don't worry) do you have an idea if module Obsoletes and EOL is imlemented?
14:14:53 <King_InuYasha> there's a PR implementing this: https://github.com/rpm-software-management/libdnf/pull/1005
14:15:01 * mhroncok checks internal meeting records
14:16:02 <King_InuYasha> there's work going on libmodulemd as well: https://github.com/fedora-modularity/libmodulemd/pull/476
14:16:45 <mhroncok> we actually need to evaluate if this works before the contingency deadline, whether to keep this or not, right?
14:16:46 <zbyszek> I'm not sure if this is something that we want pushed into dnf just before a release.
14:16:59 <dcantrell> agreed on both
14:17:07 <mhroncok> propsal: defer to f34
14:17:16 <King_InuYasha> well, we don't *have* to use the functionality right away in Fedora modulemds
14:17:17 <dcantrell> I was under the impression that this functionality was already being tested in rawhide now, but if it's not I feel it's too late
14:17:33 <dcantrell> mhroncok: +1
14:17:48 <decathorpe> mhroncok: +1
14:17:50 <King_InuYasha> frankly, it doesn't actually _matter_ one way or another
14:18:00 <mhroncok> King_InuYasha: why?
14:18:01 <zbyszek> The contingency plan is "Remove the new metadata from Fedora composes and repositories." — but do we actually need to do that? Could we just keep the metadata and not use it?
14:18:10 <King_InuYasha> exactly that
14:18:14 <King_InuYasha> we haven't even added any metadata
14:18:28 <mhroncok> that's exactly why I think it's too late to do it for f33
14:18:49 <mhroncok> if there was some input form the change owners, we would know more
14:19:20 <King_InuYasha> I can poke the change owners about it...
14:19:22 <mhroncok> King_InuYasha, zbyszek: any alternate proposals?
14:19:40 <zbyszek> What King_InuYasha said, gather some more feedback.
14:19:46 <mhroncok> until when?
14:20:11 <zbyszek> Next fesco meeting is one day after the freeze right?
14:20:15 <King_InuYasha> yep
14:20:26 <King_InuYasha> proposal: request info from change owners, decide at next fesco meeting
14:20:47 <mhroncok> after the freeze?
14:20:52 <dcantrell> I think that's too late
14:20:57 <mhroncok> dcantrell: +1
14:21:24 <dcantrell> we're kind of at the decision point, not  the point where we decide on when to make the decision point
14:21:26 <King_InuYasha> I just poked dmach to pop in here
14:21:28 <dcantrell> this is how we slip indefinitely
14:21:51 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: cool, mhroncok: can we cycle back to this in a bit?
14:22:17 <bcotton> we're not going to break my perfect on-time record :-)
14:22:29 <mhroncok> ok, moving to the next change
14:22:38 <mhroncok> #topic OpenLDAP without Non-threaded Libraries
14:22:42 <mhroncok> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/OpenLDAPwithoutNonthreadedLibraries
14:23:11 <King_InuYasha> this was dependent on mass rebuild
14:23:24 <dcantrell> yeah, that's what I thought
14:23:27 * mhroncok reads the change proposal
14:23:40 <mhroncok> "Initial mass rebuild is anticipated to discover potential build issues as well as to eliminate the actual issues caused by both libraries being loaded at the same time."
14:23:44 <mhroncok> proposal: defer to f34
14:23:56 <dcantrell> mhroncok: +1
14:24:00 <bcotton> it was originally proposed for F28, so I wonder if there's a point where we should stop kicking the can
14:24:04 <King_InuYasha> mhroncok: +1
14:24:35 <mhroncok> bcotton: but they have actually re-submitted it, we are not just shifting this to a further release at fesco, right?
14:24:45 <zbyszek> mhroncok: +1
14:24:49 <bcotton> mhroncok: yep, i missed that part in the middle of the bz history :-)
14:25:29 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain, decathorpe: vote please (defer OpenLDAP without Non-threaded Libraries to f34)
14:26:08 <dcantrell> if it originated in F28, defer to F34 and ask the owner if they are going to do it or not.  if not, just reject it at that point
14:26:29 <mhroncok> dcantrell: we can do that, yes
14:26:45 * mhroncok is not sure if we still have quorum thou
14:27:08 <dcantrell> oh did we have some people drop?
14:27:35 <mhroncok> we need at least one of  ignatenkobrain, decathorpe to vote
14:28:03 <dcantrell> I can idle here if we want to wait for them to return, but I'll leave it to you on whether to continue or not
14:28:27 <mhroncok> I am worried that the next meeting is after the freeze
14:28:37 <ignatenkobrain> whoops, sorry I missed that my internet connection is gone
14:28:43 <zbyszek> Yeah, we really need to handle this today.
14:28:48 <ignatenkobrain> +1 to defer to f34
14:29:04 <mhroncok> #agree (+5, 0, -0) defer OpenLDAP without Non-threaded Libraries to f34
14:29:13 <mhroncok> #topic Patches in Forge macros - Auto macros - Detached rpm changelogs
14:29:18 <mhroncok> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Patches_in_Forge_macros_-_Auto_macros_-_Detached_rpm_changelogs
14:29:41 <mhroncok> does anybody has any idea about status?
14:29:51 <King_InuYasha> I haven't seen nim in a couple of weeks
14:30:04 <zbyszek> proposal: give time until the beta freeze, postpone to f34 otherwise
14:30:10 <King_InuYasha> +1
14:30:13 <mhroncok> "Unfortunately, the whole process took long enough I’m on the eve of leaving for summer vacations, so it will probably have to wait till end of august."
14:30:16 <mhroncok> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/redhat-rpm-config/pull-request/95#comment-52762
14:30:17 <dcantrell> +1
14:30:43 <dcantrell> well, if that's the case, I say just postpone to F34 now then
14:30:43 <mhroncok> any significat overhaul of macros need to happen earlier in the dev cycle IMHO
14:30:49 <dcantrell> agreed
14:30:54 <mhroncok> zbyszek: -1
14:31:01 <mhroncok> proposal: defer to f34
14:31:14 <zbyszek> OK, I withdraw my proposal.
14:31:15 <dcantrell> mhroncok: +1
14:31:16 <zbyszek> mhroncok: +1
14:31:45 <King_InuYasha> mhroncok: +1
14:31:54 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain, decathorpe ^
14:32:44 <King_InuYasha> fortunately, since this is a PR to a dist-git package, postponing to F34 just means don't merge it into f33 branch :)
14:32:54 <mhroncok> yes :)
14:33:46 <ignatenkobrain> +1 to defer or +1 to reject, so choose whatever you prefer :)
14:34:11 <mhroncok> #agree (+5,0,-0) defer Patches in Forge macros - Auto macros to f34
14:34:22 <mhroncok> #topic Use update-alternatives for /usr/bin/cc and /usr/bin/c++
14:34:26 <mhroncok> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Use-Update-Alternatives-For-usr-bin-cc
14:34:29 <mhroncok> Contingency deadline: Prior to mass rebuild
14:34:35 <mhroncok> proposal: defer to f34
14:34:38 <zbyszek> +1
14:35:00 <King_InuYasha> +1
14:35:44 <dcantrell> +1
14:36:07 * mhroncok goes get some water
14:36:08 <decathorpe> +1
14:37:05 <zbyszek> #agree (+5,0,0) Defer "Use update-alternatives for /usr/bin/cc and /usr/bin/c++" to F34
14:37:27 <zbyszek> #topic Use %make_build and %make_install macros
14:37:55 <zbyszek> I think we don't need to do anything here... It's in progress.
14:37:58 <King_InuYasha> I've seen tstellar making commits to implement this across the board
14:38:05 <King_InuYasha> so let it keep going
14:38:24 <mhroncok> #info work continues into the next release
14:38:34 <mhroncok> #topic Zanata Removal
14:38:39 <mhroncok> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Zanata_removal
14:38:58 <dcantrell> I thought this was already done
14:38:59 <mhroncok> I think this will just happen and doe snot need to be tighly coupled with the release deadlines, right
14:38:59 <King_InuYasha> Zanata is going away, one way or another
14:39:14 <dcantrell> we should make sure we get rid of zanata before we start getting rid of zanata's replacement
14:39:24 <mhroncok> dcantrell++
14:39:24 <zodbot> mhroncok: Karma for dcantrel changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:39:24 <zbyszek> I think it's also in progress. Some projects are slow to update.
14:39:56 <King_InuYasha> yeah, and this, strictly speaking, we can move to F34 in terms of "target" without any real harm
14:40:04 <mhroncok> #info Zanata is moving to a farm upstate, no need to make it before any freeze
14:40:04 <King_InuYasha> it's still getting reaped
14:40:29 <mhroncok> #topic Self-contained chnages
14:40:52 <mhroncok> proposal: if you know changes that should be done in f33, propose them, we will vote to defer the rest
14:41:31 <zbyszek> backgrounds, parsec are being wrapped up.
14:41:34 <mhroncok> I think there is no harm if Support PARSEC isn't done in beta, it just adds packages
14:41:39 <King_InuYasha> yeah
14:41:45 <King_InuYasha> those can still go in for F33
14:41:53 <zbyszek> SID too
14:41:58 <King_InuYasha> yup
14:42:03 <mhroncok> the backgrounds really need some serious deadlines thou
14:42:13 <King_InuYasha> backgrounds need to be merged by beta freeze
14:42:15 <King_InuYasha> full stop
14:42:21 <zbyszek> uresourced should be to go in too.
14:42:31 <King_InuYasha> yup
14:43:04 * mhroncok wraps it up...
14:43:22 <bcotton> design team is going to start working on backgrounds much earlier in the schedule
14:43:38 <bcotton> so basically as soon as F33 is done, they'll start doing F34. with the idea that they'll be ready at branch
14:43:40 <bcotton> iirc
14:43:50 <zbyszek> bcotton: sounds good
14:44:24 <King_InuYasha> excellent
14:44:25 <mhroncok> keep going until final feeze: Support PARSEC
14:44:25 <mhroncok> until beta freeze: backgrounds, resourced, SID
14:44:25 <mhroncok> defer the rest to f34
14:45:06 <dcantrell> +1
14:45:06 <mhroncok> have I forgotten anything?
14:45:15 <zbyszek> What about Better Thermal Management for the Workstation?
14:45:24 <King_InuYasha> that should have landed already
14:45:29 <mhroncok> zbyszek: I reccon this needs to eb in beta to see some testing
14:45:39 <dcantrell> we're getting close to winter, so maybe we want to make sure F33 runs warm during that season
14:45:47 <King_InuYasha> XD
14:45:59 <zbyszek> nah, we support the users on southern hemisphere too
14:46:16 <mhroncok> and on ISS
14:46:20 <zbyszek> ;)
14:46:22 <dcantrell> so we should alternate the hemispheres we do releases in
14:46:32 <mhroncok> so we have smmer all the time
14:46:37 <mhroncok> or winter
14:46:40 <zbyszek> mhroncok: can we enumerate the ones that are getting postponed?
14:46:41 <dcantrell> right
14:48:16 <mhroncok> defer to f34: IBus 1.5.23, Ship BerkleyDB backend as a module, Better Thermal Management for the Workstation, X.org Utility Deaggregation
14:48:31 <dcantrell> +1 on all of those for F34
14:48:50 <zbyszek> mhroncok: Hmm, King_InuYasha and decathorpe said that "Better Thermal..." is done
14:49:00 <mhroncok> oh.
14:49:15 <mhroncok> I've read it as "this should have been done but is not"
14:49:18 <zbyszek> Unless this was about something else... King_InuYasha, decathorpe?
14:49:22 <mhroncok> how do I verify
14:49:23 <mhroncok> ?
14:49:58 <mhroncok> ok, exclude Better Thermal Management for the Workstation formt he defer list assuming it is done (only defer if it is not actually done)
14:49:58 <decathorpe> systemd defaults and comps?
14:50:00 <King_InuYasha> I'm pretty sure thermald is packaged in Fedora, the only other thing missing would be comps?
14:50:04 <King_InuYasha> and systemd defaults, yeah
14:50:15 <King_InuYasha> I think that's already done
14:50:17 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: and that seems to be done.
14:50:17 <mhroncok> decathorpe "At least there's a systemd preset in fedora-release to enable it by default."
14:50:32 <mhroncok> ok.. let me summarize again
14:50:55 <mhroncok> keep going until final feeze: Support PARSEC
14:50:55 <mhroncok> until beta freeze: backgrounds, resourced, SID
14:50:55 <mhroncok> defer to f34: IBus 1.5.23, Ship BerkleyDB backend as a module, X.org Utility Deaggregation
14:51:10 <zbyszek> mhroncok: +1
14:51:13 <King_InuYasha> SID can be final freeze as well
14:51:17 <dcantrell> I'm asking about the X.org stuff real quick
14:51:18 <King_InuYasha> it's just package add, nothing uses it or ships it
14:51:23 <mhroncok> King_InuYasha: ack
14:51:25 <dcantrell> I wanted to get a status update that's more recent
14:51:37 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: it can be after the freeze too
14:51:43 <King_InuYasha> true
14:51:46 <King_InuYasha> it's still just a package add
14:51:54 <mhroncok> keep going until final feeze: Support PARSEC, SID
14:51:54 <mhroncok> until beta freeze: backgrounds, resourced
14:51:54 <mhroncok> defer to f34: IBus 1.5.23, Ship BerkleyDB backend as a module, X.org Utility Deaggregation
14:51:58 <mhroncok> looking good?
14:52:09 <King_InuYasha> sounds fine to me
14:52:13 <zbyszek> yep
14:52:19 <King_InuYasha> alas, F33 is now not the biggest release ever
14:52:41 <ignatenkobrain> +1
14:53:03 <mhroncok> please do say +1, so I can count easier
14:53:12 <King_InuYasha> +1
14:53:14 <zbyszek> +1
14:54:18 <mhroncok> dcantrell?
14:54:32 <dcantrell> just got an update from ajax, I don't think f33 is realistic for the X.org stuff
14:54:42 <dcantrell> so I'm +1 on the deferal list
14:54:45 <decathorpe> +1
14:55:01 <mhroncok> #agreed (+6,0,-0) keep going until final feeze: Support PARSEC, SID; until beta freeze: backgrounds, resourced; defer to f34: IBus 1.5.23, Ship BerkleyDB backend as a module, X.org Utility Deaggregation
14:55:17 <mhroncok> #topic Introduce module Obsoletes and EOL
14:55:23 <mhroncok> any news?
14:56:02 <King_InuYasha> dmach is on PTO, I'm trying to find someone on the DNF team who can come in...
14:56:51 <mhroncok> jmracek, mcurlej and jberan are nod idling in the internal #modularity channel
14:56:55 <mhroncok> *not
14:57:35 <King_InuYasha> mdomonko here is a member of the DNF team
14:57:43 <King_InuYasha> I've asked him to try to give an update
14:58:28 <King_InuYasha> mdomonko: we're discussing https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Module_Obsoletes_and_EOL
14:58:57 <King_InuYasha> do you know if what's going on with this change?
14:59:16 <King_InuYasha> I see a bunch of PRs on libmodulemd, libdnf, and dnf for this, but they haven't been merged or pushed out yet
15:00:19 <mdomonko> hey guys
15:00:24 <mhroncok> mdomonko: hi
15:01:30 <mdomonko> tbh, I'm not prepared to give you a meaningful update at this time (just joined per Neal's request), but AFAIK amatej (our DNF engineer) is currently working on this
15:01:50 <mdomonko> lemme ask him quickly if I can reach him
15:02:43 <mhroncok> let's brainstorm in the meantime. what to do if there is no info
15:03:09 <dcantrell> with no new info, I think the only option is to defer to F34
15:03:10 <mdomonko> ok, seems like Ales is not online :(
15:03:24 <zbyszek> mhroncok: I think we need to defer to F34. I'd be very risky if this came in just before the freeze and we found out any kind of issue.
15:03:28 <mhroncok> can we afford to put this into beta on last minute and cnsider a revert before final freeze?
15:03:47 <zbyszek> mhroncok: doesn't sound like a good idea
15:03:51 <mdomonko> is there not useful information in those PRs?
15:03:52 <dcantrell> I think a feature change in critical infrastructure like the packaging stack is too risky post beta
15:03:59 <mhroncok> note that ta this point, modules are only used by users who opted in
15:04:10 <decathorpe> not sure. module metadata from "fedora" repo stays around forever
15:04:20 <mhroncok> decathorpe: right
15:04:21 <decathorpe> so it can't ever be updated or fixed
15:04:28 <mhroncok> mdomonko: no, unfortunatelly no
15:04:37 <sgallagh> Absent an update from amatej, I vote defer to F34
15:04:40 <mhroncok> decathorpe: it can be fixed before final freeze
15:04:47 <mhroncok> sgallagh: thanks
15:04:54 <mhroncok> sgallagh: let's vote for defer
15:04:55 <mhroncok> +1
15:04:57 <zbyszek> +1
15:05:22 <decathorpe> +1
15:05:25 <sgallagh> If Ales tells us that it's going to be finished this week, I might consider it. Anywhere past that I'm going to say "too risky"
15:05:31 <dcantrell> +1
15:06:03 <King_InuYasha> sgallagh: +1
15:06:06 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain?
15:06:15 <sgallagh> +1 (to make counting easier)
15:06:19 <ignatenkobrain> +1
15:06:53 <King_InuYasha> note we can just *not* use the updated modulemd fields in f33 even if the code lands
15:07:02 <King_InuYasha> so it's not *actually* risky from that perspective
15:07:08 <mhroncok> #agree (+7,0,-0) defer module Obsoletes and EOL to f34
15:07:12 <mdomonko> sgallagh: right, amatej should be online tomorrow
15:07:30 <mhroncok> King_InuYasha: unless the new metadata breaks anything that is surprised by it
15:07:57 <mhroncok> that concludes it
15:08:13 <mhroncok> #topic Next week's chair
15:08:18 <mhroncok> not me please
15:08:26 <King_InuYasha> not me either
15:08:43 <sgallagh> mhroncok: FWIW, libmodulemd ignores unknown fields, so as long as the metadata is additive vs. backwards-incompatible, we're safe.
15:08:46 <dcantrell> I can do it
15:08:58 <mhroncok> #action dcantrell to chair next week
15:08:59 <sgallagh> That said, I still think we'll request that people NOT actually use it or rely on it if it's arriving that late.
15:09:00 <decathorpe> I should have time next week
15:09:03 <mhroncok> dcantrell: thanks
15:09:30 <mhroncok> #action decathorpe to be a backup
15:09:31 <dcantrell> np
15:09:34 <mhroncok> decathorpe: thanks
15:09:43 <mhroncok> #topic Open Floor
15:09:59 * mhroncok has nothing
15:10:37 <decathorpe> I have a question
15:10:44 <mhroncok> decathorpe: say
15:11:20 <decathorpe> what's the procedure for putting packages back onto the drawing table after a botched package review? (with possibility of technical / legal issues in current package)
15:11:51 <zbyszek> decathorpe: you mean a package that was incorrectly approved? Just file a bug against the package.
15:12:05 <decathorpe> hm. okay
15:12:15 <mhroncok> decathorpe: if legal, contact legal
15:12:33 <zbyszek> If the problems are irremediable, say that the package needs to be retired.
15:12:38 <decathorpe> I'll do both. thanks guys
15:13:00 <mhroncok> ending...
15:13:06 <decathorpe> (a council member asked me to ask FESCo, which is why I asked here today)
15:13:18 <decathorpe> thanks mhroncok!
15:13:19 <zbyszek> thanks mhroncok
15:13:20 <mhroncok> thanks everybody
15:13:28 <dcantrell> thanks mhroncok++
15:13:34 <mhroncok> #endmeeting