15:00:20 <cverna> #startmeeting FESCO (2020-12-09)
15:00:20 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec  9 15:00:20 2020 UTC.
15:00:20 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:20 <zodbot> The chair is cverna. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:20 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2020-12-09)'
15:00:31 <cverna> #meetingname fesco
15:00:31 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
15:00:36 <cverna> #chair nirik, ignatenkobrain, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, cverna, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
15:00:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku cverna dcantrell decathorpe ignatenkobrain mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
15:00:39 <sgallagh> .hello2
15:00:40 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
15:00:42 <cverna> #topic init process
15:00:48 * King_InuYasha waves
15:00:48 <decathorpe> .hello2
15:00:49 <nirik> morning
15:00:49 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
15:00:50 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
15:00:52 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
15:00:54 <cverna> hello everyone
15:00:56 <cverna> o/
15:01:02 <bcotton> .hello2
15:01:02 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
15:01:56 <cverna> A rather light agenda today so let's step in, also apologies for forgetting about sending the agenda yesterday
15:02:00 <zbyszek> .hello2
15:02:00 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
15:02:21 <cverna> #topic #2508 F34 Change: Route all Audio to PipeWire
15:02:38 <cverna> .fesco 2508
15:02:39 <zodbot> cverna: Issue #2508: F34 Change: Route all Audio to PipeWire - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2508
15:03:43 <nirik> could the 'needs early revert' folks explain their position? I'm not sure I understand it...
15:03:43 <cverna> Seems that we have some on going discussion on that one, so let's use the meeting to come up with a way forward
15:04:14 <decathorpe> by "early revert" I meant "contingency deadline at beta is a bit too late"
15:04:23 <nirik> but why?
15:04:40 <decathorpe> because if it gets reverted, pulseaudio needs to be tested and verified to work again?
15:04:46 <nirik> it's just a matter of a commit to comps to switch back no?
15:04:50 <King_InuYasha> pretty much
15:05:09 <King_InuYasha> it's literally going to be swapping the package installed on the media, nothing else
15:05:29 <decathorpe> that's nice, but I was thinking about QA
15:05:30 <zbyszek> I'm a bit wary of approving this without even being able to install the package for testing.
15:05:48 <decathorpe> zbyszek: yeah that too
15:05:56 <King_InuYasha> that should have been fixed a while ago
15:05:59 <nirik> if we revert and pulseaudio has some issue, it would be a blocker no?
15:06:20 <King_InuYasha> people voted it down because pipewire didn't auto-activate on f33 because we don't have presets in fedora-release
15:06:29 <zbyszek> The problem is that a straightforward revert might not be possible. Various other things might start to depend on the new default in the meantime.
15:07:06 <King_InuYasha> zbyszek: that's not really possible
15:07:26 <King_InuYasha> anything that requires pipewire APIs itself is already pulling in normal pipewire anyway
15:07:32 <King_InuYasha> and that already has been the case for two Fedora releases
15:07:51 <King_InuYasha> this is merely the introduction of the shims for redirecting PulseAudio socket and libjack to PipeWire
15:08:07 <King_InuYasha> applications using those interfaces _cannot_ depend on PipeWire directly in that manner
15:08:13 <zbyszek> Well, let's say we revert, and we find out that the latest firefox doesn't agree with pulseaudio because ... reasons ... even selinux or whatever else.
15:08:40 <nirik> then it would have been broken with pipewire too
15:08:50 <nirik> since it uses the pulseaudio interface to it.
15:09:20 <King_InuYasha> Bingo
15:11:05 <sgallagh> Sorry, folks, I'm getting pulled into something else. If my vote is needed, please ping me.
15:11:09 <nirik> I agree we need a way to test it now, and a way for users to revert in docs
15:11:37 <King_InuYasha> well, I can't really get the presets fixed in fedora-release unless this change is approved :/
15:11:53 <zbyszek> I simply expect that with a component that interacts with so many other components, if we start reverting at beta freeze, beta will be delayed.
15:12:22 * King_InuYasha grumbles that we shouldn't have killed alpha if these are the kinds of objections we're going to have for changes
15:12:43 <decathorpe> King_InuYasha: why do we need presets for testing? can't users enable the systemd services manually?
15:12:57 <King_InuYasha> decathorpe: the update keeps getting voted down to oblivion because of it
15:13:10 <King_InuYasha> they expect doing the swap should work automatically
15:13:11 <decathorpe> then ignore the negative karma :)
15:13:11 <nirik> can it even be tested in rawhide?
15:13:25 * nirik couldn't get it to do so last he tried
15:13:55 <King_InuYasha> nirik: you need to do "dnf swap pulseaudio pipewire-pulseaudio" and then enable the pipewire services
15:14:17 <zbyszek> #info https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2020-4fbf4c6152
15:14:40 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: I think you're wrong. There's just one negative karma, and it starts with "Besides the service and socket not automatically starting, pipewire-pulseaudio still conflicts ..."
15:14:45 <zbyszek> Note the *besides*
15:14:47 <King_InuYasha> I didn't see that update
15:14:52 <nirik> bunch of conflicts. ;(
15:14:59 <King_InuYasha> I saw the one it replaced
15:15:01 <King_InuYasha> #info https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2020-0c6652bbf5
15:15:06 <zbyszek> Well, kde, who knows what that is ;)
15:15:46 <nirik> https://paste.centos.org/view/01b87346
15:16:25 <decathorpe> nirik: I'm getting similar errors for alsa-plugins-pulseaudio and pulseaudio-libs-glib2 conflicts
15:16:49 <nirik> anyhow...
15:16:53 <decathorpe> using --allowerasing, it "works"
15:17:55 <nirik> I guess if everyone wants a eariler deadline, fine... so we need to ask the change owner to adjust the things we want right? eariler deadline, way to test, way to revert back to pulse for users? anything else?
15:18:03 <cverna> so what are the next steps for that change ?
15:18:14 <cverna> yeah what nirik said :)
15:18:16 <King_InuYasha> 1. I need to get presets into fedora-release
15:18:27 <King_InuYasha> 2. I need to finish packaging adjustments for conflicts in Fedora
15:18:36 <King_InuYasha> 3. Make the comps change
15:18:36 <nirik> 2 should be before 1. ;)
15:18:45 <King_InuYasha> no
15:18:54 <King_InuYasha> I need 1 first because otherwise I can't actually test that the swap works
15:19:14 <nirik> ok, then 0. make sure it can be tested in rawhide manuall
15:19:14 <King_InuYasha> and some stuff *has* to conflict and be removed (e.g. pulseaudio-modules-*)
15:19:39 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: shouldn't it be Obsoleted?
15:19:41 <King_InuYasha> no
15:19:50 <nirik> conflicts suck. ;(
15:19:51 <King_InuYasha> otherwise you get into upgrade cycle problems
15:20:10 <King_InuYasha> because pa->pw->pa->pw if someone *wants* PulseAudio
15:20:24 <King_InuYasha> I can't use Obsoletes for this, which is making this complicated to fix
15:20:37 <zbyszek> And if Conflicts are used? Wouldn't dnf remove the conflicting packages automatically
15:20:40 <zbyszek> ?
15:20:42 <King_InuYasha> No
15:20:52 <King_InuYasha> Conflicts make the solver deselect as alternatives
15:21:05 <King_InuYasha> so if you have one, the other won't be proposed, and vice versa
15:21:19 <King_InuYasha> and if you pull in something that forces one over the other, you *have to take action*
15:21:19 <zbyszek> Anyway, this packaging stuff can be figured out. We shouldn't derail the conversation here.
15:21:46 <zbyszek> OK, so can we approve the change conditional on the contingency deadline being moved back on week?
15:21:56 <zbyszek> It'd be nice to get the ball rolling.
15:22:43 <King_InuYasha> zbyszek: sure, we could
15:22:51 <King_InuYasha> I can start working on the enablement next week if we do
15:22:58 <King_InuYasha> so at least on my part
15:22:59 <King_InuYasha> zbyszek: +1
15:23:18 <zbyszek> proposal: approve the change (but with the contingency dealine moved to one week before beta)
15:23:19 <King_InuYasha> (as for why *I'm* doing it, wtaymens literally has no idea how to do packaging stuff so I'm doing it for him)
15:23:47 <cverna> zbyszek: +1
15:23:53 <nirik> one tricky thing is that someone will need to remember the eariler deadline and bring it up... since it's not the normal milestone.
15:23:55 <King_InuYasha> zbyszek: +1
15:23:59 <nirik> zbyszek: +1 sure...
15:24:11 <zbyszek> nirik: I'll put it on my calendar right now
15:24:15 <King_InuYasha> if this becomes a normal thing to ask, we need to reintroduce the alpha phase
15:24:25 <King_InuYasha> I am personally very unhappy about it, but I'll deal
15:24:40 <decathorpe> zbyszek: +1
15:24:50 <King_InuYasha> we don't even ask the compiler team to do that, and they break things every bloody release in way more damaging wasy
15:24:52 <King_InuYasha> *ways
15:24:57 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: I'm not sure. We create a custom deadline for certain things, and without alpha we actually have more freedom to adjust the schedule as necessary.
15:25:16 <King_InuYasha> I disagree
15:25:31 <King_InuYasha> that penalizes people unfairly
15:25:39 <King_InuYasha> we have the checkpoints for coordination purposes
15:25:41 <nirik> things are supposed to be alpha quality all the time now. ;) if they aren't... the compose didn't work most likely.
15:26:35 <King_InuYasha> yeah, that's crap
15:26:42 <King_InuYasha> I disliked it then and I dislike it now
15:27:49 <zbyszek> Anyhow, +5, 0, 0, let's move on...
15:28:31 <cverna> yes
15:29:09 <cverna> #topic Next week's chair
15:29:10 <zbyszek> Heh, I justed the f34 version in a VM, and I get sounds. Looks like progress!
15:29:21 <zbyszek> Wait, we need '#agreed'
15:29:33 <cverna> #undo
15:29:33 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x7eff18ba37d0>
15:29:39 <cverna> oops missed it
15:30:35 <cverna> #agreed approve the change (but with the contingency dealine moved to one week before beta) (+5, 0, 0)
15:30:58 <zbyszek> #action zbyszek to check if the contingency plan needs to be activated on 20210216, Tuesday
15:32:03 <cverna> ok moving to the next topic :)
15:32:32 <cverna> #topic Next week's chair
15:32:58 * nirik will be on pto next week... and until jan...
15:33:09 <cverna> nirik: enjoy :)
15:33:29 <cverna> next week is probably the last meeting of the year
15:33:44 <decathorpe> I can do next week
15:35:29 <cverna> thanks
15:36:18 <cverna> #action decathorpe to chair next meeting
15:37:22 <cverna> #topic Open Floor
15:38:18 <decathorpe> This election cycle was boring :)
15:38:30 <King_InuYasha> yeah, nothing changed :P
15:38:32 <cverna> haha :)
15:39:12 * bcotton appreciates the voters not creating work for him
15:40:10 <zbyszek> bcotton: we need to adjust the fesco page. Will you do it?
15:40:27 <bcotton> zbyszek: sure!
15:44:04 <zbyszek> Should we wrap this up?
15:45:00 <cverna> yeah
15:45:06 <cverna> thanks everyone for joining
15:45:11 <cverna> #endmeeting