15:00:24 #startmeeting FESCO (2021-02-10) 15:00:24 Meeting started Wed Feb 10 15:00:24 2021 UTC. 15:00:24 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 15:00:24 The chair is zbyszek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:00:24 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:00:24 The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2021-02-10)' 15:00:24 #meetingname fesco 15:00:24 The meeting name has been set to 'fesco' 15:00:24 #chair nirik, ignatenkobrain, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, cverna, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor 15:00:24 Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku cverna dcantrell decathorpe ignatenkobrain mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek 15:00:27 #topic init process 15:00:30 .hello2 15:00:30 zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' 15:00:41 We have just one topic today, so this should be quick. 15:01:12 mhroncok said he will be late. 15:01:14 .hello2 15:01:14 dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' 15:01:20 .hello2 15:01:22 bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' 15:01:22 hello o/ 15:01:34 bcotton: do you want to take over? 15:02:09 zbyszek: only if you need me to :-) 15:02:25 Nah. Looks like we might not even have the meeting. 15:02:54 * King_InuYasha hwaves 15:02:55 .hello ngompa 15:02:56 King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' 15:03:02 That's 4. 15:03:04 yay laggy keyboard :D 15:03:23 .hello2 15:03:23 decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' 15:03:27 That's 5. 15:03:34 I AM FIVE 15:03:38 morning 15:03:42 We are SIX! 15:03:47 .hello kevin 15:03:48 nirik: kevin 'Kevin Fenzi' 15:03:49 #topic #2572 Proposal: Abstain (0) votes should be split evenly between +1 and -1 votes 15:03:52 .fesco 2572 15:03:53 zbyszek: Issue #2572: Proposal: Abstain (0) votes should be split evenly between +1 and -1 votes - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2572 15:04:36 I'd still prefer we just leave it the way it is. :) but perhaps everyone else wants to change it. 15:04:44 I agree with bcotton, this is overengineering things. 15:04:45 I'm a -1 on this proposal. absent vs. present should be handled separately, bcotton had a good explanation in the ticket 15:04:47 If there's no strong agreement to change this, I'd leave it as is. 15:05:13 Let's leave it as-is 15:05:22 dcantrell: well, this means that there's still a misunderstanding of the proposal. 15:05:30 yes +1 leave it as-is :) 15:05:48 dcantrell: because the proposal is about treating absent vs. present (and voting 0), differently. 15:06:24 But yeah, maybe it's not worth spending time on. 15:06:46 OK, let's make this formal: proposal: reject 15:06:51 +1 (reject) 15:07:03 with the difference being the proposal doesn't adjust the total votes and you get in to this whole majority vs. plurality stuff and it's likely more trouble than it's worth 15:07:17 +1 (reject) 15:07:30 +1 (reject) 15:07:32 +1 reject 15:07:46 dcantrell: we'll schedule a slot with a bunch of napkins and beer in devconf2022 and figure it out then ;) 15:08:02 zbyszek: I'm fine with that :) 15:08:27 decathorpe? 15:08:51 King_InuYasha? 15:09:17 I am +1 to keep current rules 15:09:35 #agreed REJECTED (+5, 0, 0) 15:09:40 #topic Next week's chair 15:09:52 volunteers? 15:10:13 zbyszek: sorry, I'm in two meetings at once 15:10:16 like sgallagh :) 15:10:18 I'll do if no one else wants to 15:10:23 do it 15:10:46 Seems so. 15:10:51 works for me 15:10:54 #action dcantrell will chair next meeting 15:10:58 #topic Open Floor 15:11:39 Any big status updates? 15:11:55 I have a quick note 15:12:01 The floor is yours. 15:12:47 ELN will continue to track the Rawhide branch, so as of this week's branching of F34, ELN is now developing for RHEL 10 15:12:50 #info f34 branching is done, branched compose syncing now. 15:13:21 nirik: congrats and thanks on the master→main rename (and everyone else involved) 15:13:59 which reminds me... 15:14:07 sgallagh: next week begins RHEL 11? :) 15:14:10 sgallagh: basically, you're saying that all the mistakes we make count even more ;) 15:14:16 nirik: yes, thank you for all the hard work on the renaming 15:14:16 .fesco 2573 15:14:17 nirik: Issue #2573: master to main followups - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2573 15:14:26 sgallagh: so where's EL9? :) 15:14:32 zbyszek: I don't follow. What do you mean? 15:14:59 is everyone ok with what I suggested in https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2573#comment-714037 15:15:02 King_InuYasha: EL9 will be derived from Fedora 34. 15:15:28 sgallagh: I'm just saying that the stuff we do in Fedora has a closer connection to what will in RHEL, i.e. impacts more than just Fedora. 15:15:41 nirik: +1 sounds good 15:16:09 zbyszek: While accurate, that's been true for a couple decades, so I'm not sure where you're going with it :) 15:16:32 sgallagh: I'm not sure either. Just ignore me. 15:16:41 Will do! 15:16:53 nirik: Seems reasonable to me. +1 15:17:02 nirik: I'm ok with that proposal 15:17:49 nirik: +1 15:18:02 cool. thanks. 15:18:27 Oh, one other thing 15:18:48 .fesco 2575 15:18:49 sgallagh: Issue #2575: Clarification on default service start guidelines - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2575 15:18:52 +1 ignoring sgallagh :p 15:19:22 hey. sorry for missing the entire meeting 15:19:32 sgallagh: I'm waiting for that on the devel list 15:19:43 I raised it because of a preset request that came up on BZ since it wasn't clear at the time whether the associated software was in Fedora. 15:19:49 sgallagh: wouldn't it be a bit like Recommends on a foreign rpm, which is not allowed? 15:19:50 It's not, so the urgency isn't there. 15:20:02 err, sorry. Miswrote that. 15:20:19 It's under review right now, so it's not specifically problematic in the way I thought. 15:20:39 And yes, I'll get something together on the mailing list soon. 15:21:08 thanks 15:21:10 I wonder if in this case the vendor should not ship their own preset file... since it's a instance in their env? but would want to ponder on it more 15:21:10 Since it's still an important question, just not an urgent one 15:21:38 What is the software in question? 15:22:04 .bug 1926331 15:22:07 sgallagh: 1926331 – systemd presets request - google-guest-agent.service google-startup-scripts.service google-shutdown-scripts.service - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1926331 15:22:31 Oh, I'd be more worried about the "keeps running in background" part. 15:22:45 do we actually *have* guidelines anywhere specifically about these requests? 15:22:49 Yes 15:22:59 https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/DefaultServices/ 15:23:04 I couldn't find them, only that we have to make a bug 15:23:08 not the form for the bug 15:23:19 King_InuYasha: it's all linked there ;) 15:23:29 ah there it is 15:23:39 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora&format=fedora-systemd-request 15:23:41 for some reason, I couldn't find it before 15:24:05 yeah, staying running is not good at all. 15:24:51 I also think this example is dubious on the "Must not listen for outside connections" section and the "Must not alter other services" rules, so I plan to bring this to a FESCo vote. 15:26:03 Anyway, we don't need to debate it right now, I just wanted to note that the other question had no urgency associated with it. 15:26:36 .fpc 688 15:26:37 zbyszek: Issue #688: The Council banned weak forward dependencies to third party repositories - packaging-committee - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/688 15:26:49 I think we should consider this too. 15:27:14 For the first question, sure. Wouldn't apply in this case. 15:27:22 (For the preset decision) 15:28:13 sgallagh: still, why not just ship their presets with the package itself? wouldn't that work? 15:28:45 decathorpe: That is expressly forbidden 15:29:00 decathorpe: that defeats the purpose of presets to a large extent. You can just enable it unconditionally in that case. 15:29:25 (almost. The user may still provide a local preset that overrides the packaged one.) 15:29:26 "If the service should be enabled by default, it must be added to one of the distribution presets files (see above)." 15:29:46 I mean for a third-party package ... 15:29:56 they don't care about those rules? 15:30:01 I'm not sure why we banned weak forward dependencies like this? 15:30:11 King_InuYasha: council has, legal has 15:30:20 King_InuYasha: probably Recommends: ffmpeg or something 15:30:28 King_InuYasha: The third party repos can just use the reverse forms anyway. 15:30:51 King_InuYasha: a depndency that cannot be met by fedora content whether weak or strong has been declared illegal 15:31:00 also forward makes us 'endorse' some particular repo (by using their naming) 15:32:58 makes sense 15:33:05 OK, let's continue the discussion in the ticket and -devel? 15:33:16 devel please 15:33:19 Yes, I'll move it there probably this afternoon 15:33:33 So, let's move on. Anything else to discuss? 15:33:45 I just wanted to say that I'm here and I'm not a cat. 15:33:58 Noted. 15:34:05 That sounds like something a cat would say 😑 15:34:09 dcantrell: are you a dog then? 15:34:12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGOofzZOyl8 15:34:33 dcantrell++ 15:34:34 FYI: I'm about to send the first-ever "we're going to take away your provenpackager status" email 15:34:35 dcantrell: but how can we be sure? 15:34:45 Also, once I'm not in two meetings at once, I'll be preparing the list of incomplete changes and filing that ticket 15:35:22 bcotton: That's a sad day. 15:35:27 I guess we're not keeping the "largest Fedora release ever" title for F34 15:35:33 bcotton++ 15:35:42 King_InuYasha: oh heavens no :-) 15:36:01 bcotton: sounds good 15:36:11 * zbyszek goes back to working on the unfinished stuff 15:36:25 OK, let's wrap this up. 15:36:31 I'll close in a minute. 15:37:36 See y'all next week. 15:37:37 #endmeeting