19:00:01 <nirik> #startmeeting FESCO (2021-06-21)
19:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jun 21 19:00:01 2021 UTC.
19:00:01 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
19:00:01 <zodbot> The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2021-06-21)'
19:00:01 <nirik> #meetingname fesco
19:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
19:00:01 <nirik> #chair nirik, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, defolos, mboddu, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
19:00:01 <nirik> #topic init process
19:00:01 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku dcantrell decathorpe defolos mboddu mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
19:00:08 <mhroncok> .hello churchyard
19:00:09 <zodbot> mhroncok: churchyard 'Miro Hrončok' <mhroncok@redhat.com>
19:00:11 <dcantrell> .hello2
19:00:12 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
19:00:23 <nirik> good morning everyone. Who's around for another exciting and spine tingling fesco meeting?
19:00:25 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
19:00:26 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
19:00:31 <bcotton> .hello2
19:00:32 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
19:00:53 <mboddu> .hello mohanboddu
19:00:54 <zodbot> mboddu: mohanboddu 'Mohan Boddu' <mboddu@bhujji.com>
19:01:11 <nirik> cool. Thats 5 at least... so we can go ahead and dive in...
19:01:29 <nirik> #topic #2623 F35 Change: Use yescrypt as default hashing method for shadow passwords
19:01:34 <nirik> .fesco 2623
19:01:35 <zodbot> nirik: Issue #2623: F35 Change: Use yescrypt as default hashing method for shadow passwords - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2623
19:01:46 <mboddu> +1
19:01:52 <nirik> there's +7 in ticket
19:02:07 <mhroncok> I wonder, why is this on the agenda?
19:02:16 <defolos> .hello2
19:02:17 <zodbot> defolos: defolos 'Dan Čermák' <dan.cermak@cgc-instruments.com>
19:02:20 <nirik> I guess I'm +1, but the only thing that makes me wary is how many of the search results for it are for crypto currently junk
19:02:32 <nirik> mhroncok: I thought it had to be due to system wide?
19:02:40 <nirik> or I could be out of practice.
19:02:44 <mhroncok> nirik: beware that one vote in the ticket is not from a  fesco member
19:03:02 <nirik> noted.
19:03:28 <mhroncok> nirik: if there is no -1 vote and nobody ominates it for meeting, it will just get approved in ~1 day
19:03:34 <nirik> so, I should have just announced it I guess... sorry about that
19:03:34 <mhroncok> *nominates
19:03:38 <mhroncok> np
19:03:47 <nirik> well, after a week... yeah.
19:03:54 <mhroncok> I was not sure if there is some problem ahead of us with this :)
19:04:05 <nirik> ok then... we could have possibly just canceled today then, because thats all I saw.
19:04:11 <nirik> #topic Next weeks chair
19:04:23 <mboddu> What about the bot ticket?
19:04:35 * mboddu trying to find it
19:04:39 <bcotton> well we could get stuck in a Roundabout with some Starship Troopers
19:04:39 <defolos> anyone knows who was the non fesco vote for +1?
19:04:44 <nirik> mboddu: I thought it was getting discussed still on devel
19:04:51 <mhroncok> there's a vivid discussion on devel
19:05:03 <nirik> yeah
19:05:13 <mhroncok> defolos: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2623#comment-739467
19:05:45 <defolos> mhroncok: yeah I saw it, I meant who is this person?
19:05:48 <zbyszek_> Hmm, is the meeting over already?
19:05:49 <mboddu> nirik: Yup, should we take couple of min to see if we can get some where on it?
19:05:54 <nirik> zbyszek_: nearly.
19:06:05 <mhroncok> as far as the discussion goes, I think we don't need a policy, we rather need to talk to rhcontianerbot's people
19:06:06 <nirik> who would like to chair next week?
19:06:07 <zbyszek_> Sorry for begin late.
19:06:14 <nirik> I updated the meeting process page
19:06:23 <mboddu> bcotton: You need to provide us lightsabers
19:06:35 <mhroncok> nirik: I guess I can, but you are doing so well today :)
19:06:42 <nirik> mhroncok: I agree, I'm -1 to a no bots policy. +1 to a no broken / unworking / downgraded builds pushed.
19:06:56 * mhroncok checkes calendar
19:07:10 <mhroncok> yeah, I can
19:07:24 <nirik> #action mhroncok to chair next meeting
19:07:28 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
19:07:54 <nirik> I wonder... who was unavailable an hour earlier? I guess I was, but I could double meeting if it would help mhroncok not having to stay so late.
19:08:10 <mhroncok> no need to double meeting
19:08:27 <mhroncok> I can handle it. I had a nap earlier and now I have a beer :)
19:08:29 <mboddu> I wont be available as well, but I can do double meeting as well
19:09:06 * mhroncok wishes the beer would explain all the typos, but that wouldn't be true
19:09:07 <nirik> ok. fair enough
19:09:11 <defolos> mhroncok: hope a good one!
19:09:21 <nirik> will end the meeting in a min then if nothing else?
19:09:35 <mhroncok> a german imperial IPA
19:09:39 <defolos> do we wait on bots discussion until devel quiets down?
19:09:48 <mhroncok> defolos: I think so
19:10:02 <mboddu> defolos: But we kinda know where we are heading
19:10:03 <nirik> I think so too...
19:10:07 <defolos> mhroncok: the beer sounds nice 🍺
19:10:10 * mhroncok is kinda worried rhcontainerhumans are not involved there at all
19:10:29 <nirik> I don't think they have replied to the thread at all. :( which is worrying.
19:10:40 <zbyszek_> mhroncok: I put lsm5 in CC on one of the mails.
19:10:43 <defolos> well, devel is kinda noisy
19:10:57 <defolos> I can see how people would miss it
19:11:06 <Eighth_Doctor> I don't think container folks actually follow devel@ at all
19:11:08 <nirik> yeah, but lsm5 was cc'ed...
19:11:27 * defolos is on a ton of MLs and tends to delete a lot…
19:11:31 <zbyszek_> Actually, To, not CC.
19:11:50 <defolos> maybe they are on vacation?
19:11:57 <nirik> could be.
19:12:02 <defolos> it's summer after all and lockdowns got lifted in europe
19:12:08 <zbyszek_> They have already been subsumed by the singularity?
19:12:13 <defolos> a lot of people are taking their vacations
19:12:32 <defolos> but I guess we have folks from Redhat here, right?
19:12:40 <defolos> you can find that out 😉
19:12:55 * mhroncok wouldn't know how
19:12:56 <nirik> It would be desireable to have a backup for bot contacts (well, for really everything)
19:13:17 <defolos> maybe we should make that a policy?
19:13:34 <mhroncok> to what, be responsible? :)
19:13:35 <defolos> if you want to run a bot, a human must be reachable and make the bot behave
19:13:39 <mhroncok> *responsive
19:13:42 <defolos> yes
19:13:48 <defolos> responsible
19:13:54 <mhroncok> if you want to contribute, you should be repsonsive
19:13:58 <zbyszek_> That's already implied, yeah.
19:13:58 <nirik> well, I suppose, but shouldn't the same be true for packagers/normal packages?
19:14:01 <mhroncok> it doesn't work either
19:14:04 <defolos> and responsive within reason
19:14:38 <zbyszek_> FWIW, those updates for F34 and earlier also don't follow updates policy.
19:15:09 <mhroncok> yeah, the bot seems to do all sorts of weird things and the humans don't seem to even observe it
19:15:13 <zbyszek_> I mean the fact of pushing random devel versions to stable.
19:15:21 <mboddu> nirik: A bot can build multiple packages and many other things too
19:15:40 <mhroncok> or pushing updates "not intended to go stable" to testing
19:15:46 <nirik> lsm5 has responded to me in the past when I pointed out problems with the bot...
19:15:56 <nirik> not recently tho
19:16:50 <nirik> perhaps a 'guidelines for bots' would be a way to approach it? but I think we should continue to discuss on the devel list and talk more about it next week?
19:17:07 <defolos> agreed
19:17:12 <zbyszek_> Is there some place in FAS where we could put information about the human behind the bot for bot accounts?
19:17:37 <zbyszek_> Because none of the fields seem to fit...
19:18:05 <decathorpe> .hello2
19:18:06 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
19:18:10 <decathorpe> sorry for being late. timezones :)
19:18:40 <nirik> well, ideally human(s) would read email to the bot account.
19:18:41 <mboddu> zbyszek_: Nope, there isn't one currently
19:19:08 <mboddu> Maybe a simple pagure repo with a doc or something is a good start for now
19:19:29 <mhroncok> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rhcontainerbot
19:19:44 <defolos> nirik: I don't think that is reasonable to assume though, if a bot is intended to automate a whole ton of stuff and being able to submit a lot more
19:19:46 <zbyszek_> mhroncok: oh, that's a good place.
19:19:48 <Eighth_Doctor> I think we can't expect humans to read bot accounts
19:19:57 <defolos> the email noise isn't really possible to keep up imho
19:20:02 <Eighth_Doctor> generally when you make a bot account, you don't care about what it does
19:20:07 <Eighth_Doctor> and what it gets
19:20:20 <mhroncok> you don't care about what it does?
19:20:25 <nirik> that seems... bad
19:20:28 <Eighth_Doctor> mhroncok: not really, no
19:20:42 <Eighth_Doctor> most people don't really care about what the bot account does
19:20:48 <nirik> they should.
19:20:54 <mhroncok> they must
19:20:56 <Eighth_Doctor> they care about what it can access, not what it does in itself
19:21:06 <mhroncok> if we need a policy about bots, that should e rule number 1
19:21:29 * nirik nods, agrees
19:21:37 <Eighth_Doctor> I agree as well
19:21:42 <Eighth_Doctor> but I'm just saying what people normally think about bots
19:21:53 <mhroncok> that's horrible
19:21:54 <Eighth_Doctor> it's that way at $DAYJOB and other places too
19:22:00 <Eighth_Doctor> 🤷‍♂️
19:22:16 <nirik> anyhow, lets keep discussing on list and end here? or did people want to keep going?
19:22:19 <defolos> yeah, a human should take a look at what the bot does
19:22:39 <defolos> let's keep it on devel first and see what's the outcome
19:22:46 <Eighth_Doctor> Fedora bots also need to be able to be told to stop somehow
19:22:46 <zbyszek_> Agreed.
19:22:51 <mboddu> Eighth_Doctor: At the least they should care about when it doesn't do what it supposed to do
19:23:03 <Eighth_Doctor> mboddu: ehhhh
19:23:09 <nirik> ok, thanks everyone!
19:23:14 <nirik> #endmeeting