19:00:10 <StephenGallagher> #startmeeting FESCO (2021-11-15)
19:00:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Nov 15 19:00:10 2021 UTC.
19:00:10 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
19:00:10 <zodbot> The chair is StephenGallagher. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
19:00:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2021-11-15)'
19:00:10 <StephenGallagher> #meetingname fesco
19:00:10 <StephenGallagher> #chair nirik, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, defolos, mboddu, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
19:00:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
19:00:10 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku StephenGallagher dcantrell decathorpe defolos mboddu mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
19:00:10 <StephenGallagher> #topic init process
19:00:15 <StephenGallagher> .hello sgallagh
19:00:16 <zodbot> StephenGallagher: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
19:00:20 <mboddu> .hello mohanboddu
19:00:21 <zodbot> mboddu: mohanboddu 'Mohan Boddu' <mboddu@bhujji.com>
19:00:29 <dcantrell> .hello2
19:00:30 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
19:00:40 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
19:00:42 <nirik> morning
19:00:42 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
19:01:03 <bcotton> whoa. Stephen Gallagher did you paste that as a single message?
19:01:05 <bcotton> .hello2
19:01:06 <decathorpe> .hello2
19:01:06 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
19:01:10 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
19:01:10 <defolos> .hello2
19:01:16 <zodbot> defolos: defolos 'Dan Čermák' <dan.cermak@cgc-instruments.com>
19:01:22 <StephenGallagher> Ben Cotton (he/him/his): I did, why?
19:01:53 <decathorpe> it seems that zodbot now can deal with multi-line messages from Matrix ...
19:01:53 <zbyszek> .hello2
19:01:54 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
19:02:02 <bcotton> zodbot used to not handle multi-line messages over the bridge
19:02:07 <defolos> decathorpe: Nice
19:02:09 <nirik> nothing in zodbot changed. :)
19:02:28 <bcotton> i guess the bridge is now bridgier
19:02:43 <ZbigniewJdrzejew> The bridge is now wider ;)
19:02:46 <decathorpe> maybe the bridge translates multi-line messages into multiple IRC messages? that should do the trick.
19:02:46 <bcotton> this changes everything
19:02:51 <Eighth_Doctor> potentially sturdier
19:02:53 <StephenGallagher> Or Zodbot just knows not to mess with me
19:02:57 <Eighth_Doctor> 🌉
19:03:29 * zbyszek wonders if he can set the matrix display name to 'zbyszek' too
19:03:56 <ZbigniewJdrzejew> testing, 1,2 3
19:04:00 <Eighth_Doctor> yep
19:04:05 <zbyszek> I can, but it has no effect ;)
19:04:09 <StephenGallagher> OK, I think that's everyone but mhroncok
19:04:09 <Eighth_Doctor> it worked zbyszek
19:04:10 <decathorpe> though the bridge will see a different name.
19:04:14 <StephenGallagher> May as well get started
19:04:28 <zbyszek> It doesn't work on the irc side…
19:04:30 <Eighth_Doctor> zbyszek, zbyszek: you'll need to re-associate your IRC nick to it
19:04:34 <StephenGallagher> The bridge will see `zbyszek[m]`
19:04:34 <nirik> zbyszek: you may need to move your irc one so there's no duplicate?
19:04:53 <StephenGallagher> Anyway...
19:04:56 <zbyszek> Right.
19:04:57 <nirik> you can tell the bridge to use whatever nick you like on irc. ;)
19:05:11 <StephenGallagher> Really? Where's that documented?
19:05:17 <StephenGallagher> Because that would be nice...
19:05:28 <StephenGallagher> #2687 F36 Change: Package information on ELF objects
19:05:28 <StephenGallagher> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2687
19:05:38 <dustymabe> .hi
19:05:39 <zodbot> dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' <dusty@dustymabe.com>
19:05:41 <StephenGallagher> So we opted last week to defer for one more week on the list
19:05:49 <bcotton> point of order
19:06:05 <bcotton> you forgot 'topic'
19:06:26 <nirik> StephenGallagher: we need docs still. ;(
19:06:32 <StephenGallagher> #topic #2687 F36 Change: Package information on ELF objects
19:06:32 <StephenGallagher> .fesco 2687
19:06:33 <zodbot> StephenGallagher: Issue #2687: F36 Change: Package information on ELF objects - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2687
19:06:40 <StephenGallagher> Bad drag-select
19:06:47 <StephenGallagher> Thanks for noting that
19:07:40 * decathorpe pretends to not be here for this topic so I won't block it with a 0 vote
19:07:51 <defolos> Any objections? It seems reasonable alebeit not really useful for me
19:07:57 <StephenGallagher> A 0 vote doesn't block
19:08:10 <zbyszek> decathorpe: no, that doesn't work. You either vote +1 or you are effectively voting against.
19:08:31 <decathorpe> zbyszek: exactly, that's why I'm in hiding for the next 10 minutes.
19:08:43 <StephenGallagher> I'm in pretty much the same boat; I don't think it's useful, but it's not harmful either.
19:08:51 <Eighth_Doctor> I still personally feel like this is a bad idea, so I'm -1
19:09:03 <zbyszek> I mean: you can be against obviously, but I'd prefer if you stated that outright.
19:09:09 <StephenGallagher> zbyszek: Let's NOT restart that discussion. It never gets to a satisfactory conclusion.
19:09:11 <Eighth_Doctor> and rather than pretending to be okay with it like I was last week, I'm going what I really feel this time
19:09:46 <dcantrell> I'm not convinced this is really useful, -1
19:10:05 <StephenGallagher> OK, hang on while I prepare a proposal to vote on
19:10:36 <StephenGallagher> Proposal: Permit the addition of package metadata to the ELF objects in Fedora
19:10:43 <nirik> +1
19:10:46 <StephenGallagher> I'm a weak +1
19:10:48 <dcantrell> -1
19:10:50 <nirik> I think it's a tiny space and useful
19:10:58 <zbyszek> Eighth_Doctor: so now I'm confused. You raised on objection on fedora-devel, and the objection was turned out to be unfounded, and you even acknowledged that in a reply on the mailing list. So now you're voting against?
19:11:07 <Eighth_Doctor> -1
19:11:11 <defolos> +1
19:11:20 <mboddu> +1
19:11:25 <zbyszek> +1
19:11:36 <Eighth_Doctor> zbyszek: "Unfounded" isn't the case, it's just that we're already doing some bad things we should fix
19:11:49 <Eighth_Doctor> that doesn't mean we should make it worse
19:12:09 <StephenGallagher> #agree APPROVED (+5, 1, -2) Permit the addition of package metadata to the ELF objects in Fedora
19:12:15 <Eighth_Doctor> and I also fundamentally don't think stamping binaries with rpmdb data makes sense
19:12:36 <Eighth_Doctor> I was against it all the way back in the beginning when it was merely an issue in systemd upstream
19:12:39 <StephenGallagher> Conan Kudo and dcantrell reserve the right to say "I told you so" later.
19:12:54 <Eighth_Doctor> pretty much
19:12:54 <dcantrell> we don't need to continue rehashing it here
19:13:00 <dcantrell> we all get a vote and we just voted
19:13:02 <zbyszek> Yeah, let's move on.
19:13:04 <Eighth_Doctor> I expect to lose here, I just want to at least vote properly this time
19:13:10 <dcantrell> zbyszek, thank you for all of your answers on the mailing list
19:13:41 <decathorpe> Stephen Gallagher: who's the "0" vote in that result?
19:13:41 <StephenGallagher> That's one of the closer votes we've had in recent memory
19:13:45 <dcantrell> StephenGallagher: heh....let me just add it to the running list I have...right after modularity.  :)
19:13:49 <StephenGallagher> You :)
19:14:11 <StephenGallagher> .fire dcantrell Not that old chestnut again!
19:14:11 <zodbot> adamw fires dcantrell Not that old chestnut again!
19:14:17 <dcantrell> :)
19:14:19 <decathorpe> I thought I explicitly said I will not submit a vote for this one? ...
19:14:30 <StephenGallagher> That's literally what a 0 vote is.
19:14:36 <StephenGallagher> An explicit statement of neutrality
19:15:33 <decathorpe> whatever. I get different answers to that question every time I ask, so I will stop asking
19:15:55 <StephenGallagher> It's complicated and I'd be happy to link you to at least two previous megathreads on the topic :)
19:15:57 <dustymabe> decathorpe: just make it an issue and then everyone can vote on what the policy is :)
19:16:19 <StephenGallagher> I keep proposing that a 0 vote should mean "reducing the number of votes required to approve", but it keeps getting rejected.
19:16:38 <zbyszek> StephenGallagher: fwiw, I'd like to put 2688 and 2695 on the agenda quickly.
19:16:53 <StephenGallagher> These days, it's functionally identical to -1 except that it doesn't auto-trigger a meeting discussion.
19:17:04 <StephenGallagher> Sure, we can do that.
19:17:14 <StephenGallagher> Let me dig them up...
19:17:41 <StephenGallagher> #topic #2688 Election Interview Questions — FESCo (F35)
19:17:41 <StephenGallagher> .fesco 2688
19:17:42 <zodbot> StephenGallagher: Issue #2688: Election Interview Questions — FESCo (F35) - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2688
19:17:52 <zbyszek> I asked on the mailing list, and crickets.
19:18:17 <zbyszek> I think we should just acknowledge that we're keeping the same questions so Ben can handle the rest.
19:18:19 <dcantrell> I'm fine with the current list of questions.  I don't have any suggestions
19:18:44 <nirik> sure. ;(
19:18:51 <mboddu> Yeah, I am fine what we have now
19:18:56 <StephenGallagher> I would like to see new questions asked, if only so we might get new information, but I don't have any specific suggestions.
19:18:58 <mboddu> s/fine/fine with/
19:19:24 <defolos> Neither do I
19:20:13 <StephenGallagher> Ben Cotton (he/him/his): Maybe just add a silly question for fun? "Is a hotdog a sandwich?" or "Is a pop-tart a calzone?" for example ✌️
19:20:31 <Eighth_Doctor> I'd like a question about ELN's influence on Fedora, but I can't really think of a good phrasing for that
19:20:51 <Eighth_Doctor> also, yes, fun questions for sure :)
19:20:56 <StephenGallagher> That might be worth taking a couple minutes to wordsmith then
19:21:06 <Eighth_Doctor> never heard of "is a pop-tart a calzone?" though
19:21:15 <dustymabe> "What's your favorite Fedora Badge?"
19:22:00 <StephenGallagher> Proposal: "What are your opinions on Fedora ELN? How can it be improved?"
19:22:28 <dcantrell> +1
19:22:29 <bcotton> i think we should try a more specific question, he says without having a good suggestion
19:22:38 <StephenGallagher> ok... let me think a minute
19:23:09 <StephenGallagher> Proposal: "Fedora ELN has been a part of the Fedora Project for about a year now. What has gone well with it and what have been its shortcomings?"
19:23:26 <StephenGallagher> That maybe sounds too much like a post-mortem :(
19:24:00 <mboddu> Yeah, I prefer the 1st one compared to the 2nd suggestion :)
19:24:01 <Eighth_Doctor> yeah, I'm thinking more along the lines of...
19:24:51 <StephenGallagher> "How much investment do you feel Fedora should make into ELN? Do you feel that packagers should be more involved with it?"
19:25:10 <Eighth_Doctor> Proposal: "Fedora ELN brings RHEL engineering more closely into Fedora. How do you feel we should balance RHEL engineering with the community with ELN building from Fedora?"
19:25:27 <Eighth_Doctor> that's also a great question
19:25:49 <dcantrell> Eighth_Doctor's question could become the 3rd question
19:26:02 <Eighth_Doctor> I like both mine and your latest one, Stephen Gallagher
19:26:06 <zbyszek> And what about ELN-next ?
19:26:16 <StephenGallagher> That's not even approved yet :)
19:26:25 <StephenGallagher> (Also, it's ELN-extras)
19:26:31 <zbyszek> Right, but we can ask questions. I think it's a good time for that.
19:27:19 <Eighth_Doctor> dcantrell: I like that idea
19:27:26 <Eighth_Doctor> it's much more concrete than what we had in the past
19:27:29 <StephenGallagher> By all means. I welcome the input.
19:28:37 <StephenGallagher> dcantrell: I also like that suggestion. Enough to make it a proposal:
19:28:37 <StephenGallagher> Proposal: We replace the existing question about RHEL and Fedora conflicts with  "Fedora ELN brings RHEL engineering more closely into Fedora. How do you feel we should balance RHEL engineering with the community with ELN building from Fedora?"
19:28:48 <defolos> StephenGallagher: I like this one
19:28:52 * nirik is fine with that
19:28:53 <mboddu> StephenGallagher: +1
19:29:01 <dcantrell> +1
19:29:02 <zbyszek> StephenGallagher: +1
19:29:26 <defolos> And maybe add: what do you think are the benefits and risks of a stronger involvement
19:29:30 <StephenGallagher> defolos: I'm going to suggest adding mine as a supplementary question after this vote.
19:30:01 <Eighth_Doctor> +1
19:30:33 <defolos> StephenGallagher: +1
19:30:55 <StephenGallagher> Are you +1 to this proposal or to that statement you replied to?
19:31:15 <Eighth_Doctor> both
19:31:25 <Eighth_Doctor> but I meant the former :)
19:31:36 <StephenGallagher> Sorry, I meant to direct that question at defolos
19:31:55 <StephenGallagher> In Matrix, at least, it was sent as a reply.
19:32:24 <defolos> It was a reply
19:32:49 <defolos> I don't know what was voted on, sorry
19:33:13 <StephenGallagher> Proposal: We replace the existing question about RHEL and Fedora conflicts with "Fedora ELN brings RHEL engineering more closely into Fedora. How do you feel we should balance RHEL engineering with the community with ELN building from Fedora?"
19:33:26 <StephenGallagher> defolos: ^^
19:33:48 <StephenGallagher> OK, we have enough votes in any case
19:33:59 <StephenGallagher> #agree We replace the existing question about RHEL and Fedora conflicts with "Fedora ELN brings RHEL engineering more closely into Fedora. How do you feel we should balance RHEL engineering with the community with ELN building from Fedora?" (+6, 0, 0)
19:34:09 <defolos> +1 to that
19:34:45 <StephenGallagher> Next proposal, to be inserted after the previous one: How much investment do you feel Fedora should make into ELN? Do you feel that packagers should be more involved with it?
19:35:02 <StephenGallagher> sorry, let me amend
19:35:33 <defolos> Add a supplement about risk & benefits to that please
19:35:42 <dustymabe> just thinking out loud.. what if the person answering the question doesn't have a strong opinion - do they answer with their weakly held opinion ?
19:35:48 <StephenGallagher> Proposal: How much investment do you feel Fedora should make into ELN? Do you feel that packagers should be more involved with it? What are the benefits and risks to greater involvement?
19:35:52 <dcantrell> feels like a pretty loaded question
19:35:58 <defolos> +1
19:36:05 <Eighth_Doctor> Stephen Gallagher: +1
19:36:07 <zbyszek> -0, I think the previous question is enough.
19:36:08 <StephenGallagher> dcantrell: That's a fair statement.
19:36:18 <StephenGallagher> But ELN is a thing that's happening, might as well decide how much
19:36:33 <defolos> It's an important position
19:36:35 <dcantrell> I feel like the way it's phrased is making the response take a position of pro or anti Red Hat, which shouldn't even be a thing
19:36:42 <Eighth_Doctor> yeah, it's been a thing since this spring
19:36:59 <Eighth_Doctor> we don't talk about it much, but it's there
19:37:05 <StephenGallagher> dcantrell: OK, that's not the intent. If it's coming across that way, we should erphrase.
19:37:05 <zbyszek> StephenGallagher: so in my experience, I know it's happening, but it's been totally non-intrusive and I haven't had to care one iota. (And I mean that as a good thing, in case this wasn't clear…)
19:37:20 <StephenGallagher> zbyszek: That's been the goal!
19:37:23 <dustymabe> zbyszek: that's my experience as well
19:37:32 <StephenGallagher> s/erphrase/rephrase/
19:37:47 <defolos> dustymabe: Same here
19:37:48 <dustymabe> I think this question implies it's going to be more intrusive in the future and we'll need to care more
19:37:50 <StephenGallagher> Let me try a different phrasing, with that in mind
19:38:16 <defolos> But I'd like to know candidate's position on that and a reasoning for their stance
19:38:38 <StephenGallagher> Proposal: Currently, Fedora ELN strives to be largely invisible to the rest of the Fedora Project. Should it be made more prominent in discussions about the direction of the distribution? If so, how should we go about it.
19:38:51 <StephenGallagher> s/./?/
19:39:24 <dcantrell> yeah, that's better
19:39:26 <defolos> That will motivate mostly negative replies imho
19:39:37 <nirik> how about just 'What are your thoughts on Fedora ELN" ? or is that not asking something you think people shoudl directly answer?
19:39:43 <mboddu> StephenGallagher: Still feels like we are expecting a lot from the candidate esp we dont know if thats we want
19:39:54 <StephenGallagher> defolos: But it limits the negativity specifically to the topic of prominence in discussion :)
19:41:09 <defolos> True, but I still think it encourages a negative reply
19:41:32 <zbyszek> StephenGallagher: what about "What are your thoughts on Fedora ELN? What are your hopes for its future, should it be more visible in Fedora?"
19:42:03 <mboddu> I think "What are your thoughts on Fedora ELN and what are your suggestions in improving it?" is good enough
19:42:16 <zbyszek> mboddu: yeah, I withdraw mine.
19:42:24 <zbyszek> +1 to mboddu's
19:42:30 <StephenGallagher> zbyszek: I honestly feel like that will (by design) mostly get variations on "I don't think much about it, it's irrelevant to my day-to-day"
19:43:16 <StephenGallagher> I don't have a strong objection to mboddu'
19:43:20 <StephenGallagher> s proposal
19:43:36 <dustymabe> StephenGallagher: I think you're trying to get people to think more critically about it when maybe they haven't had the need to in the past?
19:43:39 <zbyszek> StephenGallagher: would that be a bad thing. Maybe it'd allow some folks to shine with some positivity?
19:43:41 <StephenGallagher> It feels a little too open-ended for me, but if the rest of you are in favor, that's fine
19:44:22 <StephenGallagher> zbyszek: That's an interesting thought.
19:45:05 <StephenGallagher> Anyway, I'll vote 0 on mboddu's proposal. How do others feel about it?
19:45:22 <zbyszek> /me has voted already
19:45:27 <dcantrell> +1
19:45:45 <nirik> +1
19:45:57 <dustymabe> I imagine for ELN you fit into one of 3 camps.. 1) you are directly related to the project and it's goals - 2) you have been impacted by it (i.e. something related to the project interferred with your day to day some how) 3) you haven't been impacted by it and haven't thought much about it
19:47:44 <StephenGallagher> We have (+3, 1, -0) at the moment. Anyone else?
19:48:27 <zbyszek> StephenGallagher: mboddu was implictly +1 too
19:48:43 <Eighth_Doctor> +1
19:48:47 <StephenGallagher> oh right
19:48:58 <StephenGallagher> #agree Add "What are your thoughts on Fedora ELN and what are your suggestions in improving it?" to the list of questions (+5, 1, -0)
19:49:10 <StephenGallagher> Anything further on this topic?
19:49:28 <StephenGallagher> Ben Cotton (he/him/his): Are you satisfied?
19:49:54 <bcotton> if FESCo is happy, i am happy
19:50:06 <dustymabe> happy FESCo happy life
19:50:33 <StephenGallagher> If you are cold, FESCo is cold. Bring them inside.
19:50:52 <bcotton> You wouldn't download a FESCo!
19:50:57 <StephenGallagher> #topic #2695 Suggested new intro paragraph for Updates policy
19:50:57 <StephenGallagher> .fesco 2695
19:50:58 <zodbot> StephenGallagher: Issue #2695: Suggested new intro paragraph for Updates policy - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2695
19:51:06 <StephenGallagher> Oh wOuLdN't I?
19:51:47 <StephenGallagher> zbyszek: You wanted to talk about this?
19:52:21 <zbyszek> The pull request is https://pagure.io/fesco/fesco-docs/pull-request/54#request_diff
19:52:59 <zbyszek> I think it's a reasonable addition, and something that was missing from our docs, at least in the new doc location.
19:53:26 <zbyszek> But it's more than a trivial change, so I think we should approve it explicitly.
19:53:41 <zbyszek> Maybe folks should read it and vote in the ticket.
19:54:05 <decathorpe> the sembr breaks are ... special
19:54:09 <decathorpe> and there's some typos
19:54:11 <decathorpe> other than that ...
19:54:51 <zbyszek> Typos?
19:56:37 <StephenGallagher> sembr?
19:56:45 <zbyszek> semantic breaks
19:57:08 <StephenGallagher> ah
19:57:38 <zbyszek> https://sembr.org/
19:57:39 <StephenGallagher> Anyway, we are running out of meeting time, so I agree we should take it to the ticket
19:57:48 <decathorpe> +1
19:58:02 <zbyszek> Works for me.
19:58:21 <StephenGallagher> #topic Open Floor
19:58:32 <StephenGallagher> Oops
19:58:40 <StephenGallagher> #topic Next week's chair
19:58:47 <StephenGallagher> I'm going to be on PTO next week
20:00:36 <StephenGallagher> Anyone?
20:00:47 <StephenGallagher> Bueller?
20:01:00 * nirik is also on PTO next week
20:01:10 <zbyszek> I can do it.
20:01:11 <dustymabe> While the parents are away...
20:01:17 * bcotton can be non-voting chair if there will be enough US folks around to have quorum
20:01:29 <StephenGallagher> Dusty... we talked about this. NO PARTIES.
20:01:50 <zbyszek> Damn, I haven't been to a party in ages.
20:02:00 <dustymabe> :)
20:03:50 <StephenGallagher> #action zbyszek to chair the 2021-11-22 meeting
20:04:03 <StephenGallagher> #topic Open Floor (vol. 2)
20:04:17 <StephenGallagher> Any last-minute (well, over-time) topics?
20:04:58 <decathorpe> We might need to encourage more nominees for the FESCo elections :)
20:06:42 <bcotton> we at least have enough to run the election :-)
20:07:14 <bcotton> current members can take solace that low candidate counts tend to correlate with community satisfaction. we get big spikes when people are mad about something
20:09:01 <StephenGallagher> Alright, then with that:
20:09:03 <StephenGallagher> #endmeeting