17:00:02 <mhayden> #startmeeting FESCO (2022-08-30)
17:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Aug 30 17:00:02 2022 UTC.
17:00:03 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:03 <zodbot> The chair is mhayden. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
17:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2022-08-30)'
17:00:08 <mhayden> #meetingname fesco
17:00:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
17:00:12 <mhayden> #chair nirik, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, music, mhayden, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
17:00:12 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku dcantrell decathorpe mhayden mhroncok music nirik sgallagh zbyszek
17:00:17 <mhayden> #topic init process
17:00:19 <mhayden> .hello mhayden
17:00:20 <zodbot> mhayden: mhayden 'Major Hayden' <mhayden@redhat.com>
17:00:24 <dcantrell> .hello2
17:00:24 <mhayden> 👋🏻
17:00:24 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
17:00:35 <mhayden> howdy David!
17:00:37 <nirik> morning
17:00:47 <mhayden> howdy nirik!
17:01:02 <mhayden> we're 3/5
17:01:03 <gotmax[m]> .hello gotmax23
17:01:04 <zodbot> gotmax[m]: gotmax23 'Maxwell G' <gotmax@e.email>
17:01:04 <gotmax[m]> Matrix is lagging quite badly
17:01:06 <dcantrell> hi, I've been out for a while.  had PTO then travel to Brno and then got back from Brno and tested positive for COVID
17:01:26 <mhayden> dcantrell: oh man, i hope you're feeling better
17:01:33 <mhayden> COVID is not so fun
17:02:04 <music[m]> .hello music
17:02:05 <zodbot> music[m]: music 'Benjamin Beasley' <code@musicinmybrain.net>
17:02:07 <zbyszek> .hello2
17:02:08 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
17:02:12 <dcantrell> I am now, thanks.  I had Paxlovid too, which I'm not entirely convinced was necessary, but I just do what the doctor says.  This was my first covid.
17:02:20 <mhayden> hello music[m] and zbyszek
17:02:31 <mhayden> i think we're 5/5 on quorum if my counting is accurate 🤔
17:03:18 <mhayden> i'll give it til :04 after and we will get rolling
17:03:29 <gotmax> you, dcantrell, nirik, music[m], zbyszek[m]
17:03:36 <mhayden> gotmax: you!
17:03:45 <mhayden> oh hah
17:03:58 <mhayden> i see... i need more coffee as the afternoon drags on
17:04:04 <mhayden> it's :04 after, let's go
17:04:11 <mhayden> just 3 things i found for today
17:04:19 <mhayden> #topic #2855 Improve package orphaning process
17:04:23 <mhayden> .fexco 2855
17:04:26 <mhayden> .fesco 2855
17:04:27 <zodbot> mhayden: Issue #2855: Improve package orphaning process - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2855
17:04:41 <mhayden> re-visiting this one from last week to see if we wanted to talk through anything else
17:05:09 * zbyszek has no new ideas
17:05:12 <mhayden> igor has been responding in his ticket -- thanks so much to igor for helping out there and with all of that packaging work
17:05:21 <gotmax> I think mhroncok already opened https://pagure.io/releng/pull-request/10986 and maintainers were mentioned on the Igor ticket
17:05:40 <mhayden> #link https://pagure.io/releng/pull-request/10986
17:05:40 <gotmax> It should be possible to resolve groups and mention all of the maintainers, but I'm not sure we want that
17:05:50 <mhayden> that would be... a lot
17:06:06 <mhayden> mhroncok++
17:06:12 <gotmax> A lot because you think it'd be difficult or too many people would be mentioned?
17:06:14 <zbyszek> Yeah, @python-sig would be bit too much.
17:06:31 <mhayden> the email servers would never forgive us
17:06:38 <mhayden> anything else on this topic or is it pretty well covered?
17:06:54 <gotmax> Seems covered, although the PR wasn't yet merged
17:07:22 <mhayden> looks like nirik gave it a thumbs up -- do we need more reviews on it?
17:07:42 <gotmax> It looked reasonable to me
17:07:59 <zbyszek> Apparently python-sig has 31 members, and go-sig has 32.
17:08:08 <zbyszek> Less than I expected in both cases.
17:08:22 <gotmax> Yeah, although I'm not sure how many of the go-sig members are actually active...
17:08:23 <mhayden> looks like i should apply for python-sig so we can outdo gotmax 😉
17:08:50 <gotmax> Or you could apply to the go-sig :p
17:09:01 <mhayden> okay, mhroncok should be good to merge that i assume
17:09:10 <mhayden> gotmax: you don't want me on any more golang packages 🤣
17:09:22 <mhayden> alrighty, let's move along
17:09:26 <mhayden> #topic #2860 Periodically check BLAS/LAPACK guidelines
17:09:29 <mhayden> .fesco 2860
17:09:30 <zodbot> mhayden: Issue #2860: Periodically check BLAS/LAPACK guidelines - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2860
17:09:55 <gotmax> This feels like a slippery slope. Are we going to do this for all of the packaging guidelines?
17:10:17 <mhayden> good question -- could this be rolled into fedora-review?
17:10:35 <decathorpe> .hi
17:10:35 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
17:10:36 <decathorpe> sorry, I lost track of time.
17:10:36 <mhayden> i guess fedora-review wouldn't help much with an existing package
17:10:43 <mhayden> decathorpe: that's okay, we're glad you're here
17:10:49 <gotmax> mhayden: Yup, only for new ones
17:10:52 <mhayden> we're talking about #2860
17:11:03 <zbyszek> gotmax: I think the rub is that this was correctly implemented, and compliance has regressed. So I don't think the slippery slope argument applies. We generally expect that guidelines which were fully implemented remain so.
17:11:22 <nirik> we do very little to check packages after initial review...
17:11:40 <mhayden> nirik: very true
17:11:43 <salimma> no meeting?
17:12:01 <mhayden> salimma: we're underway for the Fesco meeting -- welcome
17:12:13 <gotmax> nirik: Agreed. If zuul is enabled, it runs rpmlint when PRs are submitted, but that relies on people not pushing directly to distgit and actually looking at the output...
17:12:31 <salimma> .hi
17:12:32 * salimma had a stuck Matrix client
17:12:32 <zodbot> salimma: salimma 'Michel Alexandre Salim' <michel@michel-slm.name>
17:12:46 <mhayden> salimma: no problem, we're talking about #2860
17:12:50 <salimma> mhayden: adding support for fedora-review re-checking an existing package would be nice
17:12:50 <decathorpe> at least in this case checking is relatively easy (i.e. verifying that applications + libraries link against the correct library)
17:12:57 <zbyszek> nirik: do you thing releng wants to take this on to run the script periodically?
17:13:21 <nirik> not really.
17:13:37 <zbyszek> Because if the answer is negative, I think it's fine if we close this and ask iucar (or other contributors) to run the thing.
17:13:51 <gotmax> Yeah. No special permissions are needed.
17:13:58 <nirik> this could be a gating test for those packages?
17:14:57 <zbyszek> Proposal: contributors/interested parties are encouraged to do periodic checks and submit bugs as necessary. No special privileges are required.
17:15:15 <dcantrell> +1
17:15:24 <gotmax> It could be. In my experience, gating has been a nuisance that barely works. And it's not enabled by default.
17:15:32 * decathorpe fears that packagers would just drop gating tests rather than fix their packages
17:15:44 <mhayden> decathorpe: i would never! 🤭
17:15:51 <gotmax> zbyszek[m]: If you mark it with #idea it shows up in the minutes
17:16:10 <decathorpe> meh, +1
17:16:15 <mhayden> perhaps we combine zbyszek's idea with a suggestion to roll it into fedora-review and/or rpmlint?
17:16:17 <nirik> +1 to the proposal... but perhaps more discussion on list could lead to some more generic solution
17:16:41 <gotmax> Is this a general proposal about this sort of scenario or just about this specific case?
17:16:43 <zbyszek> mhayden: but that'd require somebody implementing this. I don't think we should require this.
17:16:59 <mhayden> right
17:17:21 <decathorpe> nirik: yeah it would make sense to have at least some mechanism in place to make sure we don't regress wrt/ some implemented features
17:17:22 <zbyszek> If somebody wants to do that, that'd be great of course.
17:17:30 <music[m]> As someone who maintains several packages that link flexiblas, I would be perfectly happy for someone to set up a gating test for correct linking, but I wouldn’t want to have to set it up myself.
17:18:07 <music[m]> Enhancements to fedora-review and rpmlint are welcome but don’t seem to address the issue of regressions since they’re rarely run on existing packages.
17:18:14 <gotmax> Just as an example, we could do this for rust packages bundling by checking for `bundled(crate(*))` Provides
17:18:16 * nirik wonders if we could setup a way to do commit time tests... but thats likely a ton of work
17:18:17 <music[m]> +1 to zbyszek’s proposal
17:18:31 <gotmax> Although it seems like decathorpe is already aware of at least some of the violations
17:18:54 <mhayden> #idea zbyszek proposes: contributors/interested parties are encouraged to do periodic checks and submit bugs as necessary. No special privileges are required
17:19:09 <zbyszek> mhayden: please use #agree
17:19:34 <mhayden> oops, thanks zbyszek
17:19:47 <mhayden> so i'm a +1 on zbyszek's proposal, too
17:19:58 <mhayden> i think we're +5, 0, -0 if i counted correctly
17:20:30 <mhayden> #agree Contributors/interested parties are encouraged to do periodic checks and submit bugs as necessary since no special permissions are required (+5, 0, -0)
17:20:47 <gotmax> I think it's #agreed?
17:21:00 <gotmax> #commands
17:21:00 <zodbot> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #rejected #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk
17:21:08 <mhayden> perhaps it's aliased?
17:21:34 <mhayden> i've got it in the notes -- i'll manually call it out if needed 😉
17:21:42 <mhayden> anything more on this topic? one more left
17:21:42 <sgallagh> It is. (Sorry, just realized the time...)
17:21:54 <zbyszek> Maybe zodbot is slow?
17:21:55 <mhayden> howdy sgallagh!
17:22:00 * gotmax waves to sgallagh
17:22:14 <jonathanspw> .hello
17:22:14 <zodbot> jonathanspw: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
17:22:18 <mhayden> okay, last topic!
17:22:18 <jonathanspw> .hi
17:22:19 <zodbot> jonathanspw: jonathanspw 'Jonathan Wright' <jonathan@almalinux.org>
17:22:20 <mhayden> howdy jonathanspw
17:22:25 <mhayden> #topic #2857 Change proposal: Minizip Renaming
17:22:31 <mhayden> .fesco 2857
17:22:32 <gotmax> meetbot doesn't provide any confirmation for its commands
17:22:32 <zodbot> mhayden: Issue #2857: Change proposal: Minizip Renaming - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2857
17:22:38 <sgallagh> Zodbot doesn't respond to agree[d] statements. It just takes them
17:22:49 <mhayden> this seems like a fairly standard rename as i read over it
17:23:38 <gotmax> > Obsoletes: (minizip < 3.0.2-7 and minizip > 3.0.0-1)
17:23:43 <gotmax> I'm not sure that works
17:23:51 <mhayden> i think there are some good suggestions for the author in the devel thread
17:24:08 <decathorpe> gotmax: I'm pretty sure it doesn't
17:24:26 <mhayden> gotmax: those numbers look backwards
17:24:49 <zbyszek> Is there any reason not to use the standard approach described in Packaging Guidelines?
17:25:10 <gotmax> I think the problem is that Obsoletes don't work with boolean dependencies. But maybe two Obsolete statements would work.
17:25:19 <decathorpe> it would be great if the change proposal included adding Provides for the new names to the existing packages, that would make it almost backwards compatible ... not sure if I remembered to post that on devel@ :)
17:25:21 <zbyszek> #info https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/#renaming-or-replacing-existing-packages
17:25:42 <mhayden> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/I5WYNPVD3ZOKO3X76LQ5SIRUUXDFUF2Y/
17:25:44 <mhayden> ^^ devel thread
17:26:31 <decathorpe> oh, looks like I did in fact post that suggestion.
17:26:35 <music[m]> just fixed broken devel thread link in the issue and added a link to that original discussion
17:26:41 <mhayden> thanks, music[m]
17:26:43 <mhayden> music[m]++
17:27:10 <nirik> thanks
17:27:11 <mhayden> would someone volunteer to give some feedback on that one for improving it?
17:27:21 <sgallagh> gotmax: I'm confused why `minizip > 3.0.0-1` at all
17:27:25 <sgallagh> That's... never going to work right
17:28:12 <zbyszek> Hmm, actually Obsoletes is all wrong.
17:28:27 <zbyszek> Because we want the packages to be parallel-installable.
17:30:17 <gotmax> Yeah, I think it'd need to be a with instead of an and, and you can't use either. It would work if they used `minizip < 3.0.2-7` and epoch'd the new minizip-compat.
17:30:51 <zbyszek> Meh, but why all this bother?
17:30:56 <mhayden> who can reply on that ticket to give the change proposer some suggestions? (i haven't been through this process with my packages yet)
17:31:06 <gotmax> Because they don
17:31:09 <gotmax> oops
17:31:23 <zbyszek> I can reply.
17:31:29 <mhayden> zbyszek++
17:31:29 <zodbot> mhayden: Karma for zbyszek changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:31:42 <mhayden> #action zbyszek to reply on #2857 with suggestions
17:31:45 <mhayden> thank you, zbyszek
17:32:05 <mhayden> anything else on this for now?
17:32:25 <gotmax> Because they don't want to the older minizip to be replaced with the renamed minizip-ng
17:34:17 <mhayden> okay, it got quiet, so i'll move on
17:34:23 <mhayden> #topic Next week's chair
17:34:36 * mhayden has been in the driver's seat for two weeks and is happy to pass the baton 😜
17:34:47 <mhayden> whoa, i crossed my metaphors/idioms therer
17:35:05 <mhayden> anybody excited to do next week's meeting?
17:36:38 * gotmax hears crickets
17:36:52 <zbyszek> I might not be available. I can take it three weeks from now.
17:37:40 <mhayden> hah, Monday is a holiday in the USA next week
17:38:23 <nirik> well, if no one else will I guess I can...
17:38:31 <zbyszek> nirik++
17:38:31 <zodbot> zbyszek: Karma for kevin changed to 7 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:38:33 <mhayden> nirik++
17:38:35 <zodbot> mhayden: Karma for kevin changed to 8 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:38:50 <mhayden> #action nirik to chair next week's meeting 🪑
17:38:59 <mhayden> uh oh, i hope zodbot does emojis
17:39:07 <mhayden> #topic Open Floor
17:39:22 <gotmax> #link https://pagure.io/fesco/fesco-docs/pull-request/68
17:39:30 <jonathanspw> Happy to be here :)
17:39:32 <music[m]> nirki++
17:39:38 <jonathanspw> That's my open floor contribution.
17:39:40 <mhayden> good ol' nirki
17:39:49 <mhayden> jonathanspw: happy you're here, too!
17:39:54 <zbyszek> jonathanspw++
17:39:56 <zodbot> zbyszek: Karma for jonathanspw changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:39:59 <mhayden> jonathanspw++
17:39:59 <zodbot> mhayden: Karma for jonathanspw changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:40:01 <jonathanspw> My first cookie!
17:40:07 <jonathanspw> Oh back to back cookies!
17:40:12 <mhayden> gotmax: looking at that PR!
17:40:22 <gotmax> So far only zbyszek has voted
17:40:36 <mhayden> oh this latest version looks ✅ to me
17:41:26 <zbyszek> mhayden: please vote in the ticket. It's easier to keep track this way.
17:41:39 <mhayden> zbyszek: just did, but thought i'd make gotmax feel good in here too
17:41:40 <gotmax> He did already
17:41:56 <zbyszek> Oh, indeed.
17:42:02 * mhayden prefers to share his appreciation and approvals all over the place
17:42:19 * mhayden also makes a note to have less coffee before this meeting
17:42:36 <zbyszek> :)
17:42:38 <gotmax> mhayden++
17:42:38 <zodbot> gotmax: Karma for mhayden changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:42:51 <mhayden> since we're doing the open floor thing, i just want to say thanks to gotmax and music[m] for all their help with my packaging -- i've learned a ton and i think i'm making much fewer errors now
17:43:00 <decathorpe> 🍵
17:43:13 <mhayden> and good gosh thanks to mhroncok and friends for the pyproject-rpm-macros 🫂
17:43:27 <gotmax> :)
17:43:59 <mhayden> okay, i've got another $dayjob meeting rapidly approaching, so let's wrap this up!
17:44:17 <mhayden> thanks everyone for coming today. see you next week. hopefully all the USA friends have a good holiday weekend.
17:44:20 <zbyszek> mhayden, thanks for chairing.
17:44:33 <nirik> thanks mhayden
17:44:44 <mhayden> you're welcome!
17:44:47 <mhayden> #endmeeting