17:01:37 <sgallagh> #startmeeting FESCO (2023-05-30)
17:01:37 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue May 30 17:01:37 2023 UTC.
17:01:37 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:01:37 <zodbot> The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
17:01:37 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:01:37 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2023-05-30)'
17:01:37 <sgallagh> #meetingname fesco
17:01:37 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
17:01:37 <sgallagh> #chair nirik, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, music, mhayden, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
17:01:37 <sgallagh> #topic init process
17:01:37 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku dcantrell decathorpe mhayden mhroncok music nirik sgallagh zbyszek
17:01:46 <zbyszek> .hello2
17:01:49 <dcantrell> .hello2
17:01:49 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
17:01:52 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
17:01:54 <mhayden> .hello2
17:01:55 <zodbot> mhayden: mhayden 'Major Hayden' <mhayden@redhat.com>
17:02:02 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
17:02:03 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
17:02:06 <sgallagh> .hi
17:02:07 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
17:03:51 <nirik> morning
17:05:58 <zbyszek> Are we starting?
17:06:33 <sgallagh> #topic #2993 Change: Increase vm.max_map_count value
17:06:33 <sgallagh> .fesco 2993
17:06:34 <zodbot> sgallagh: Issue #2993: Change: Increase vm.max_map_count value - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2993
17:07:32 <nirik> I've got to run out and get a package in a bit (before the top of the next hour sometime), just FYI
17:08:40 <sgallagh> I've been trying to follow the discussion on this one, but honestly I'm not sure I understand the potential ramifications of enlarging this value.
17:09:23 <zbyszek> aleasto wrote that with 1 million, the reproducer doesn't work.
17:09:35 <nirik> I think the lower proposed limit is much more reasonable
17:09:42 <zbyszek> But I'd like to see this verified independently.
17:09:46 <sgallagh> Right, but also that more intensive games might still be affected.
17:09:50 <dcantrell> I feel like if this was a good general purpose default, it would already be the default
17:10:31 <sgallagh> dcantrell: I don't necessarily agree. This default could have been decided on when memory never got bigger than the 32-bit limit for all I know.
17:10:49 <zbyszek> dcantrell: not necessarilly. Many defaults in the kernel are useless. The kernel relies on userspace to change them, so that it can "keep compatibility".
17:10:49 <sgallagh> * on when total system memory never
17:11:03 <dcantrell> that's true, but I also don't know that.  I'm just guessing.  I'd like to see a little more concrete data behind the setting and/or test results
17:11:18 <zbyszek> Same here.
17:11:31 <sgallagh> OK, but let's at least provide feedback on exactly what data we want to see
17:11:47 <decathorpe> hey o/ sorry, lost track of time for a few minutes.
17:12:56 <dcantrell> I'd like to see maybe a half dozen to a dozen people in Fedora volunteer to run with the proposed setting on a variety of systems and just report what happens--if anything
17:12:58 <nirik> I'm ok with just doing the 1million setting, but I agree it would be better to have more people test that 1million works for their games, doesn't allow for easy DOS?
17:13:47 <sgallagh> nirik:  Resource-based DoS on a Fedora system to which you have login access is so trivial as to not be worth calling out in this specific instance, IMHO
17:14:05 <zbyszek> +1 to both
17:14:32 <zbyszek> (sorry, I meant to what dcantrell and nirik wrote above)
17:14:39 <nirik> sure, understood... but this could open remote stuff too in theory
17:14:42 <sgallagh> Or do you see a way to exploit this remotely?
17:15:00 <nirik> well, some thoughts, but nothing concrete...
17:15:35 <nirik> I'd be ok asking for what dcantrell said.
17:16:08 <sgallagh> The problem is that will be a self-selecting group
17:16:18 <sgallagh> Which therefore produces anecdotes, not data
17:16:51 <sgallagh> I'm frankly in favor of setting the 1M limit in Rawhide and seeing who complains over the next couple weeks.
17:16:53 <dcantrell> don't we want to see how this change affects daily users?
17:17:04 <sgallagh> We can roll it back if it doesn't go well.
17:17:25 <dcantrell> do enough people run rawhide as a daily driver for us to get useful feedback?
17:18:20 <zbyszek> dcantrell: I don't think this will impact anyone negatively, unless they go out of their way to run something which creates those mappings.
17:19:17 <zbyszek> I'd be fine with approving this for 1m if we agree to revert if people find scenarios in which the limit can be easily exploited.
17:19:28 * nirik too
17:19:38 <zbyszek> I.e. approve this without extensive testing, but if testing happens later, be ready to undo the change.
17:19:48 <sgallagh> zbyszek: My thoughts exactly
17:19:50 <Eighth_Doctor> I'm fine with Stephen Gallagher's idea
17:20:45 <Eighth_Doctor> (that is, going ahead and setting the 1M limit in Rawhide and watching things go from there)
17:20:59 <sgallagh> OK, I'll put it to a vote:
17:21:42 <sgallagh> Proposal: Set the limit to 1M in Rawhide. We will revert the change if serious, practical exploits are discovered.
17:21:51 <nirik> +1
17:21:54 <zbyszek> +1, wfm
17:22:13 <decathorpe> +1
17:22:18 <Eighth_Doctor> +1
17:22:25 <dcantrell> 0, not in favor of this approach but I won't stand in the way
17:22:30 <decathorpe> 1M == 1024*1024 or 1E6?
17:22:49 <sgallagh> I left that intentionally as an exercise for the implementor
17:23:00 <sgallagh> (I don't know if there are base-2 alignment considerations)
17:23:06 <decathorpe> right
17:23:19 <zbyszek> 1MiB please. This is memory, after all.
17:23:28 <Eighth_Doctor> ugh
17:24:20 <decathorpe> so 2**20?
17:24:34 <decathorpe> minus 5? or whatever the current limit uses ...
17:25:07 <zbyszek> Sure.
17:25:23 <sgallagh> OK, I'll revise the proposal to be explicit
17:25:48 <sgallagh> Proposal: Set the limit to 1048576 in Rawhide. We will revert the change if serious, practical exploits are discovered.
17:26:25 <zbyszek> Still +1.
17:26:39 <Eighth_Doctor> +1
17:26:48 <decathorpe> +1
17:26:56 <dcantrell> 0
17:28:00 <zbyszek> nirik: drop the package, come back to us!
17:28:01 <mhroncok> uaaaa. I was watering some plants in the garden and forgot it's time for the meeting. sorry about that
17:28:05 <mhayden> +1
17:28:44 <nirik> +1
17:28:54 <mhroncok> +1
17:29:16 <sgallagh> #agreed Set the limit to 1048576 in Rawhide. We will revert the change if serious, practical exploits are discovered. (+7, 1, -0)
17:29:47 <sgallagh> #topic Next week's chair
17:29:58 <mhroncok> I can do ity
17:30:01 <mhroncok> *it
17:30:03 <sgallagh> Thanks!
17:30:22 <mhroncok> but not the week after, in case we cancel
17:30:26 <sgallagh> #action mhroncok to chair 2023-06-06 meeting
17:30:40 <mhroncok> (I will ask asynchronously if that happens)
17:31:08 <sgallagh> Ack
17:31:14 <sgallagh> #topic Open Floor
17:31:16 <zbyszek> #info Voting for Council, FESCo, and Mindshare is open.
17:31:30 * sgallagh opens the floor to reveal the sharks with laser beams on their heads
17:32:19 * zbyszek is glad that his floor is firmly affixed to … whatever is under the floor.
17:33:02 <sgallagh> Indeed, please vote for your preferred candidates in the Elections.
17:33:09 <sgallagh> And also for me, if you don't mind ;-)
17:33:40 <nirik> FYI, koji outage thursday... give everyone time to do things other than builds. ;)
17:33:58 <sgallagh> #info Koji outage on Thursday. Make other plans!
17:34:54 <nirik> I'm hopeful the postgresql upgrade will make things faster/better/stronger
17:35:26 <sgallagh> That would be pleasant
17:35:35 <sgallagh> Any other topics for today?
17:35:57 <decathorpe> nirik: are you quoting Daft Punk lyrics? ;)
17:36:34 <aleasto> uhh am i late to anything
17:36:42 <aleasto> .hello2
17:36:43 <zodbot> aleasto: aleasto 'Alessandro Astone' <ales.astone@gmail.com>
17:37:35 <Eighth_Doctor> hi aleasto
17:37:49 <Eighth_Doctor> we've decided you can do your thing already :)
17:38:09 <Eighth_Doctor> and now would like your votes in the fesco elections going on now :P
17:38:22 <nirik> Fabio Valentini: not intentionally. ;)
17:38:44 <aleasto> ok. so 1048576 it is
17:38:57 <sgallagh> Wasn't "better, stronger, faster" originally the Six Million Dollar Man or something?
17:39:04 * nirik goes to save his battery from the local post office.
17:39:21 <Eighth_Doctor> Stephen Gallagher: I think so...?
17:39:33 <dcantrell> sgallagh: yeah
17:39:46 <sgallagh> Anyway. I think we've reached the end of productive conversation, so I will tie this up.
17:39:56 <sgallagh> Thanks for coming, all
17:39:58 <sgallagh> #endmeeting