17:00:18 <sgallagh> #startmeeting FESCO (2024-01-04)
17:00:18 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan  4 17:00:18 2024 UTC.
17:00:18 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:18 <zodbot> The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
17:00:18 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:18 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2024-01-04)'
17:00:18 <sgallagh> #meetingname fesco
17:00:18 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
17:00:18 <sgallagh> #chair nirik, jistone, zbyszek, sgallagh, humaton, dcantrell, mhayden, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor, tstellar
17:00:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku dcantrell humaton jistone mhayden nirik sgallagh tstellar zbyszek
17:00:32 <Son_Goku> .hello ngompa
17:00:34 <sgallagh> #topic Init Process
17:00:34 <zodbot> Son_Goku: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
17:00:35 <sgallagh> .hi
17:00:36 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
17:00:43 <dcantrell> .hello2
17:00:44 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
17:00:46 <jistone> .hi
17:00:47 <zodbot> jistone: jistone 'Josh Stone' <jistone@redhat.com>
17:00:59 * decathorpe watching from the cheap seats
17:02:29 * sgallagh waits to see if we achieve quorum
17:03:03 <zbyszek> .hello2
17:03:04 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
17:03:33 <zbyszek> I'm in the car, so I'll bit a bit slow to respond. I should be home in about 10 minutes.
17:03:55 <sgallagh> zbyszek: Don't text and drive, please
17:04:23 <jednorozec> .hello humaton
17:04:24 <zodbot> jednorozec: humaton 'Tomáš Hrčka' <thrcka@redhat.com>
17:04:36 <tstellar> .hello tstellar
17:04:37 <zodbot> tstellar: tstellar 'Tom Stellard' <tstellar@redhat.com>
17:04:59 <sgallagh> Well, we now have quorum, so we'll begin.
17:05:19 <sgallagh> First order of business: Welcome jednorozec and jistone to FESCo!
17:05:39 <jistone> thanks!
17:05:40 <dcantrell> welcome!
17:05:59 <jednorozec> thanks
17:06:08 <sgallagh> Congratulations on your election. Your official rubber stamps would be in the mail if they existed and people still used mail.
17:06:29 <dcantrell> people still use mail
17:06:54 <dcantrell> I know because of my very realistic portrayal!
17:07:01 <sgallagh> Second order of business: A salute to decathorpe and mhroncok, both of whom opted not to run for FESCo again. Thank you for your service.
17:07:22 * nirik is still on vacation, but happens to be at the keyboard... :)
17:07:24 * dcantrell applauds
17:07:32 * decathorpe bows
17:07:33 <dcantrell> thank you, decathorpe and mhroncok
17:07:35 <smooge> congratulations to decathorpe and mhroncok
17:07:43 <michel-slm> .hello salimma
17:07:43 <nirik> yeah! many thanks!
17:07:44 <zodbot> michel-slm: salimma 'Michel Lind' <michel@michel-slm.name>
17:07:52 <smooge> sorry 'thank you' would have been more appropriate
17:07:59 * michel-slm just realized this is still on IRC
17:08:10 <sgallagh> smooge: "Congratulations on your graduation", maybe?
17:08:22 <michel-slm> congrats to the new members and the emeritus ones :D
17:08:25 <decathorpe> smooge: "congratulations, you got out in time" is perfectly fine
17:08:56 <smooge> I promise I was trying not to start off the year with my usual snarkiness
17:09:24 <Son_Goku> thank you both for everything :)
17:09:26 <sgallagh> #topic #3101 Change: Remove OpenSSL Compat
17:09:30 <sgallagh> .fesco 3101
17:09:31 <zodbot> sgallagh: Issue #3101: Change: Remove OpenSSL Compat - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3101
17:10:45 <sgallagh> When last we left this topic, we were punting until we had a clear plan in place for Python 3.6.
17:11:19 <tstellar> It still seems unlikely to me that python3.6 will be ported to OpenSSL 3.
17:11:22 <jistone> has anyone *tried* to make an openssl3 patch?
17:11:30 <sgallagh> Last I looked, the "plan" was to move Python 3.6 over to OpenSSL 3, but that doesn't seem to be happening
17:11:33 <jistone> I applied the python2.7 patch, and it went ok, I think
17:11:34 <dcantrell> not that I have seen
17:11:43 <nirik> well, I don't know that it's realistic to expect anyone to have worked on this over their holidays.
17:11:49 <smooge> ++
17:12:11 <sgallagh> nirik: Absolutely fair, but it's been a month of no motion
17:12:27 <dcantrell> openssl maintainers want the compat package removed, so I don't think it's fair to keep this around since no one is going to work on it
17:12:39 <sgallagh> I'm not keen on punting the decision much further. I'd like to propose the following:
17:13:00 <smooge> sgallagh: going from how things are in various groups in Red Hat.. expecting motion from Nov 24->Jan 7 is betting against the odds
17:13:21 <sgallagh> Proposal: The Change is approved, and Python 3.6 must either migrate to OpenSSL 3 prior to Beta Freeze or be dropped from Fedora at that time.
17:13:58 <dcantrell> I think they can either migrate or drop the dependency on openssl-compat.  just disable the ssl modules that require it
17:14:06 <dcantrell> either way, the decision is for the python maintainers
17:14:27 * nirik nods.
17:14:43 <tstellar> What if the python maintainers took over maintainence of openssl-compat is that an acceptable solution too?
17:14:55 <dcantrell> they've already indicated they can't take on that work
17:14:57 <sgallagh> tstellar: Frankly, I'd say "no"
17:15:07 <jednorozec> tstellar, I dont think so the team is understaffed
17:15:20 <sgallagh> They don't want to and they're not (on the whole) subject matter experts
17:16:09 <dcantrell> sgallagh: can we rephrase your proposal a bit to say Python 3.6 must either migrate to OpenSSL 3 prior to Beta freeze or drop the dependency on openssl-compat?
17:16:31 <sgallagh> dcantrell: I'm not sure that's realistic; SSL is pretty baked-in, isn't it?
17:16:39 <smooge> so I think many of the reasons that python3.6 is kept is to use ssl items
17:16:50 <dcantrell> per this discussion, it's a possible path for them:  https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-removing-openssl-1-1-package-system-wide/92899/4
17:17:07 <tstellar> Ok, so in that case, I'm +1 sgallagh's proposal.  It seems like no one wants to maintain openssl-compat any more, and we can't really force people to do the work.
17:17:34 <sgallagh> I'll amend my proposal slightly
17:17:47 <dcantrell> count me a +1 to the proposal, afk for just a bit
17:17:49 <Son_Goku> actually, that isn't true
17:18:00 <Son_Goku> tstellar: jonathanspw offered to maintain it last time we discussed it
17:18:09 <sgallagh> Proposal: The Change is approved, any package still depending on openssl-compat at Beta Freeze will be dropped from Fedora at that time.
17:18:17 <sgallagh> Less python-specific this way as well.
17:18:35 <Son_Goku> sgallagh: -1... I'd rather ask that they orphan rather than retire it
17:19:12 <Son_Goku> given the packages that still depend on it, the fact it's technically maintained through the end of RHEL 8 EOL, a packager could maintain it by syncing RHEL 8 to Fedora's compat package
17:19:46 <sgallagh> I'm kind of wary of community-maintained OpenSSL, if only because a non-corporate entity is less likely to get timely notification of CVEs
17:19:47 <jistone> do we *want* anyone to be adhoc'ing a security-sensitive package like that?
17:20:17 <decathorpe> given that bascially only an old version of python still depends on it ... I guess the potential damage is very limited as well
17:20:57 <tstellar> I feel the same way as sgallagh.  If it were another package I think orpahning instead of retiring would be fine, but I don't think we should plan to ship a release with components that depend on  an umaintained crypto library.
17:21:01 <nirik> well, at least in fedora provided packages... ;) There may be 3rd parties using it.
17:21:22 <jistone> 3rd parties can reintroduce the package themselves
17:21:24 <michel-slm> it's... python36 only in the Fedora repos, but I bet there are many third-party / internal packages that still depend on it too, right
17:21:25 <zbyszek> jistone: you said that you applied the patch and it worked… Can you expand a bit on this?
17:21:29 <sgallagh> nirik: Third parties are more likely to bundle it than use ours
17:21:52 <zbyszek> jistone: link to a patch or pr?
17:21:58 <nirik> sure, they could do all kinds of things.
17:22:00 <jistone> I got it far enough to build locally -- trying a mockbuild to see how it goes in full
17:22:05 <michel-slm> so yeah if it's maintained by volunteers... it really needs to keep up with the RHEL8 openssl at least
17:22:20 <jistone> I haven't posted anywhere yet, but I will if this passes
17:22:43 <zbyszek> jistone: tham\nks
17:23:00 <zbyszek> So this sounds doable.
17:23:12 <zbyszek> +1 to sgallagh's proposal
17:23:14 <nirik> The fedora one is not 100% the same as the thel8 one too.... the env is going to be different somewhat and we have compat-*, so you can't just copy the spec... so there could be subtle bugs that creep in
17:23:40 <nirik> yeah, I can be +1 to sgallagh's proposal too
17:24:15 <jistone> +1 from me
17:24:19 <jednorozec> +1
17:24:33 <zbyszek> I think it's much safer to drop it than to pretend that it's mainained. Openssl is a too juicy target with too many cves to wing it.
17:25:24 <sgallagh> I count (+5, 0, -1) so far, so this will pass. dcantrell, tstellar: do you want to weigh in?
17:25:35 * dcantrell is back
17:25:36 <dcantrell> +1
17:25:47 <tstellar> sgallagh: I'm +1
17:26:11 <sgallagh> #agreed The Change is approved, any package still depending on openssl-compat at Beta Freeze will be dropped from Fedora at that time. (+7, 0, -1)
17:26:47 <sgallagh> #topic New Meeting Time
17:27:11 <sgallagh> #link https://whenisgood.net/agyhckd/results/sxn8wpk
17:27:41 <sgallagh> At present, we have one available slot shown, but it's at a time where I suspect jednorozec would not prefer.
17:28:07 <nirik> basically this slot, but monday?
17:29:01 <Son_Goku> this slot on Monday overlaps with blocker review
17:29:04 <jednorozec> so the timES i SEE ARE MY LOCAL TIME OR utc?
17:29:04 <sgallagh> No, but I just realize WhenIsGood isn't displaying timezones properly.
17:29:13 <jednorozec> huh
17:29:25 <sgallagh> Which means probably all of the responses are wrong...
17:29:25 <jednorozec> new keyborad sorry
17:29:28 <jistone> I think that's showing in Eastern
17:29:32 <Son_Goku> mine is right :P
17:29:42 <sgallagh> Right, I submitted it in Eastern US time, which timezones enabled.
17:29:43 <jistone> it did let me set my timezone when I responded
17:30:04 <sgallagh> So the current slot looks like 3pm EST (three hours later than the current slot)
17:30:24 <sgallagh> But if folks thought that was UTC, everything is likely borked
17:30:33 <nirik> I hate timezones.
17:30:33 <Son_Goku> people can update their responses right now
17:30:41 <Son_Goku> whenisgood lets you do that
17:30:44 <nirik> I submitted my response in my timezone.
17:31:13 <jednorozec> 3hrs later is 9 ish over here :/
17:31:37 <sgallagh> Right, I'm looking at the responses and they actually do look right for their resp. timezones.
17:32:00 <sgallagh> But as I said, I suspect the currently-available slot is bad for jednorozec
17:33:13 <jednorozec> Am I the only one in Europe?
17:33:22 <nirik> I could try and move my standup and do 1 hour eariler...
17:33:23 <sgallagh> No, zbyszek is also
17:33:35 <jednorozec> his responses seems like he respondet in CET
17:33:45 <jednorozec> but didnt change the tz
17:33:56 <sgallagh> His TZ is marked as "Warsaw"
17:33:57 <zbyszek> Yes, and the one time is 21 CET, i.e. 20 UTC.
17:34:09 <jednorozec> I see
17:34:16 <zbyszek> It's late, but I'll try to do it.
17:34:28 <zbyszek> At least I won't have other things to do at time usually.
17:34:30 <dcantrell> if we had a time machine, we wouldn't have this problem
17:34:38 <Son_Goku> lol
17:34:44 <sgallagh> dcantrell: No, we'd have many, many problems instead
17:34:48 <nirik> remember: you only need to invent a timemachine _once_ :)
17:34:57 <jistone> violating causality for convenience
17:35:06 <jednorozec> time machines go only forward we have science to back that up now :D
17:35:23 <Son_Goku> jistone: we can't all be Hermione Granger, I guess :)
17:35:36 <sgallagh> Or The Doctor...
17:35:38 <jednorozec> anyway
17:35:43 <michel-slm> mavity
17:35:44 <jednorozec> ok lets do monday 20UTC
17:35:59 <dcantrell> I'm still trying to figure out how all of FESCo could fit in a DeLorean.  Those were 2 seaters
17:36:13 <sgallagh> The next, least-bad option is two hours earlier, but Neal declined that one.
17:36:14 * Son_Goku is listening to a Doctor Who theme remix right now :P
17:36:27 <nirik> also my standup should be done by 19:30utc... so we could do that to be 30min eariler for eu folks?
17:36:33 <sgallagh> @Son_Goku Is that set in stone, or could we make that available?
17:36:42 <Son_Goku> sgallagh: 12pm is blocker review and 1pm is kde sig meeting
17:36:58 <Son_Goku> it's not totally set in stone, I could double up on kde sig and this
17:37:18 <Son_Goku> but we should not overlap with blocker review
17:37:22 <zbyszek> 19:30 UTC would work for me too.
17:37:37 <Son_Goku> half hour earlier is fine-ish
17:37:43 <zbyszek> I need to step away for a few minutes, but I'm +1 to either time.
17:37:44 <Son_Goku> I can drop out halfway in kde sig meeting
17:38:01 <Son_Goku> or at least be quiet in a video meeting :P
17:38:11 <sgallagh> Isn't blocker review at 1700 UTC?
17:38:39 <Son_Goku> yes, that's 12pm EST
17:39:00 <Son_Goku> KDE SIG meeting is pegged to US/Eastern, which is currently 18:00 UTC / 13:00 EST
17:39:24 <jistone> will the meeting be anchored on UTC, or shift with EST/EDT?
17:39:34 <jistone> (not a problem for me either way)
17:39:51 <sgallagh> Right, I was asking about 1800 UTC, which I realize collides with KDE. I was wondering if that could be doable to make life easier for the European folks
17:39:59 <sgallagh> jistone: Traditionally we track UTC
17:40:29 <jednorozec> I think we can go with 19:30UTC and see how it goes
17:40:51 <sgallagh> OK, if that works for you.
17:40:56 <Son_Goku> I'm fine with it too
17:41:35 <sgallagh> #info The new FESCo meeting time will be at 1930 UTC, beginning on 2024-01-16
17:41:40 <nirik> monday is also nice because freeze events are tuesdays...
17:41:48 <jednorozec> yup
17:41:49 <Son_Goku> yup
17:42:17 <sgallagh> Since Monday is just two working days away, I vote we skip a formal meeting next week but I'll send out an announcement-only message.
17:42:36 <dcantrell> +1
17:42:40 <Son_Goku> +1
17:43:02 <Son_Goku> we can process async voted stuff on Monday regardless
17:43:10 <sgallagh> That's what I meant.
17:43:23 <sgallagh> #topic Next Week's Chair
17:43:35 <sgallagh> Who wants to chair the 2024-01-16 meeting?
17:44:02 <sgallagh> #action sgallagh to send out the voting announcements on 2024-01-08
17:44:21 <sgallagh> Whoops, I mean the 2024-01-15 meeting
17:44:39 <sgallagh> (Forgot I had my calendar set to Monday as first day of the week)
17:44:48 <Son_Goku> heathen :P
17:44:59 <jonathanspw> !hi
17:45:00 <jonathanspw> .hi
17:45:02 <zodbot> jonathanspw: jonathanspw 'Jonathan Wright' <jonathan@almalinux.org>
17:46:28 <sgallagh> For the benefit of our new members, FESCo policy has us rotating the chair each week. The protocols and processes for chairing the meeting are recorded at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process
17:46:45 <Son_Goku> also, what about finally switching to matrix?
17:46:57 <sgallagh> I was going to bring that up in Open Floor
17:47:04 <Son_Goku> okay
17:47:22 <jistone> rotating makes sense, but I'd rather sit through a few before driving :)
17:47:59 <sgallagh> jistone: Thanks for volunteering! 😈
17:48:21 <sgallagh> (I kid, of course)
17:48:43 <tstellar> jistone: If you want, I can chair and you can shadow me.
17:49:05 <sgallagh> tstellar: That sounds like a great idea.
17:49:05 <jistone> sure, if you're volunteering
17:49:40 <sgallagh> #action tstellar will chair the 2024-01-15 meeting and offers to mentor jistone at the same time
17:49:46 <sgallagh> Thank you both
17:49:52 <sgallagh> #topic Open Floor
17:50:00 <sgallagh> So... Matrix?
17:50:07 <jistone> yes please
17:50:07 <michel-slm> yes please
17:50:28 <nirik> +1
17:50:29 <sgallagh> I'm all for it, assuming we have a meetbot that supports it.
17:50:46 <sgallagh> Will that necessitate a change to the meeting protocol?
17:50:54 <Son_Goku> most of the commands are the same
17:50:59 <Son_Goku> just ! instead of #
17:51:01 <nirik> The only thing really missing is the email to meetingminutes, and I guess people don't find that too important...
17:51:11 <Son_Goku> well and no chair functionality
17:51:20 <nirik> (almost all other meetings have already moved)
17:51:22 <Son_Goku> that is slightly irritating
17:51:28 <nirik> yeah
17:51:44 <sgallagh> Does that mean that any participant can use ! commands?
17:51:56 <nirik> yep
17:51:57 <sgallagh> I'm not sure that's too much of a problem in practice.
17:51:59 <Son_Goku> I think from a syntax sugar perspective, the only thing we might be missing is !fesco wrapper for "!pagureissue fesco"
17:52:59 <zbyszek> Does uploading of logs to meetbot work?
17:53:01 <Son_Goku> yes
17:53:02 <nirik> yes
17:53:11 <zbyszek> So yeah, I think we should switch.
17:53:34 <dcantrell> nothing was ready when I brought this up a while ago (re: moving to matrix), but it feels usable enough now to move
17:54:44 <zbyszek> FWIW I'll probably miss the meeting on the 15th. Ski time.
17:54:54 <Son_Goku> ryanlerch did a great job porting everything over
17:55:15 <sgallagh> OK, so I'm not hearing any dissent, so I suggest we skip a formal vote and just switch to Matrix.
17:55:28 <Son_Goku> :D
17:55:31 <sgallagh> One thing I didn't check... what meeting channel will we use for the new time.
17:55:41 <Son_Goku> we should be good to use fedora-meeting
17:55:46 <Son_Goku> #meeting:fedoraproject.org
17:56:48 <sgallagh> Works for me
17:57:15 <sgallagh> #action sgallagh to update the FESCo Meeting Process with new bat-time, new bat-location
17:57:30 <Son_Goku> :D
17:58:06 <sgallagh> tstellar: Since this will be the first Matrix meeting, probably worth calling that out loudly when sending the meeting announcement
17:58:20 <tstellar> sgallagh: OK
17:58:41 <sgallagh> Any other topics for this week?
17:58:57 <zbyszek> We should also probably put a notice in the IRC channel at the time of the meeting to redirect any confused folks.
18:00:09 <sgallagh> Agreed
18:01:09 <zbyszek> sgallagh: please wrap this up.
18:01:17 <sgallagh> Sounds good to me.
18:01:22 <sgallagh> Thank you for coming, folks!
18:01:26 <sgallagh> #endmeeting