2024-01-15 19:30:47 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !startmeeting FESCO (2024-01-15)
2024-01-15 19:30:48 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-01-15 19:30:47 UTC
2024-01-15 19:30:48 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'FESCO (2024-01-15)'
2024-01-15 19:30:55 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !meetingname fesco
2024-01-15 19:31:05 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Chairs: @conan_kudo:matrix.org, @ngompa:fedora.im, @nirik:matrix.scrye.com, @humaton:fedora.im, @zbyszek:fedora.im, @sgallagh:fedora.im, @jistone:fedora.im, @dcantrell:fedora.im, @mhayden:fedora.im, @tstellar:fedora.im
!topic Init Process
2024-01-15 19:31:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-01-15 19:31:30 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !hi
2024-01-15 19:31:31 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-01-15 19:31:31 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his
2024-01-15 19:31:36 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !hi
2024-01-15 19:31:37 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Tom Stellard (tstellar)
2024-01-15 19:31:37 <@humaton:fedora.im> !hi
2024-01-15 19:31:38 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Tomáš Hrčka (humaton) - he / him / his
2024-01-15 19:31:45 <@jistone:fedora.im> !hi
2024-01-15 19:31:46 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Josh Stone (jistone) - he / him / his
2024-01-15 19:33:49 <@tstellar:fedora.im> We have quorum.  I will wait a few more minutes in case people forgot about the switch to matrix.
2024-01-15 19:34:42 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Has anyone posted over there with a reminder?
2024-01-15 19:34:48 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (I'm not logged into IRC right now)
2024-01-15 19:34:52 <@tstellar:fedora.im> I posted reminders on IRC.
2024-01-15 19:35:00 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Excellent, thanks
2024-01-15 19:35:13 <@tstellar:fedora.im> I think I miscounted, we only have 4 FESCO members here.
2024-01-15 19:35:38 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I count 5
2024-01-15 19:35:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I see 5
2024-01-15 19:35:44 <@davide:cavalca.name> !hi
2024-01-15 19:35:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Davide Cavalca (dcavalca) - he / him / his
2024-01-15 19:35:55 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Tom, Neal, Josh, Tomas and myself
2024-01-15 19:36:38 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Is @jednorozec Tomáš ?
2024-01-15 19:36:44 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Yes
2024-01-15 19:36:50 <@humaton:fedora.im> That is me
2024-01-15 19:36:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's humaton :)
2024-01-15 19:37:10 <@humaton:fedora.im> that is also me :)
2024-01-15 19:37:12 <@tstellar:fedora.im> OK, so we do have 5.
2024-01-15 19:37:19 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Alright, let's begin.
2024-01-15 19:37:41 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Feature request for Zodbot: have it include the quote of the !hi so we know which it's responding to :)
2024-01-15 19:37:57 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !topic #3137 Change: Build Fedora Cloud Edition Images Using Kiwi in Koji 
2024-01-15 19:38:10 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !fesco 3137
2024-01-15 19:38:11 <@zodbot:fedora.im> **fesco #3137** (https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3137):**Change: Build Fedora Cloud Edition Images Using Kiwi in Koji**

● **Opened:** a week ago by amoloney
● **Last Updated:** an hour ago
● **Assignee:** davdunc
2024-01-15 19:38:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> https://github.com/fedora-infra/maubot-fedora/issues/46
2024-01-15 19:38:46 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Thanks!
2024-01-15 19:39:06 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Do we still need to discuss this or was it resolved in the ticket?
2024-01-15 19:39:22 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I put a hold on it so we could hear from Release Engineering.
2024-01-15 19:39:33 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> At the time, it sounded like Kevin was hesitant about it.
2024-01-15 19:39:47 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I'm a lot happier with the way the conversation has gone since.
2024-01-15 19:40:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> He seems to be okay about it now, given that we have a plan to eliminate ImageFactory within 6-9 months.
2024-01-15 19:40:56 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I have a slight preference that we wait to vote on it until the Change Proposal is split into the F40 and F41 ones, as requested there.
2024-01-15 19:41:00 <@jistone:fedora.im> we should get an explicit +1 from him though
2024-01-15 19:41:03 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> But I'll be +1 on them when they are
2024-01-15 19:41:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Stephen Gallagher: this change did not include the F41 parts
2024-01-15 19:41:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and we're not going to submit one until after davdunc and I have time to enumerate what that will look like, since that was completely unexpected during the course of discussion
2024-01-15 19:42:04 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Ah, sorry, I think I may have misread that, then
2024-01-15 19:42:21 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Current vote tally is +4,-1.
2024-01-15 19:42:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Kevin asked us to expand the scope, then it kept getting bigger, so we went back to the original scope
2024-01-15 19:42:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and the extra stuff will be targeted for F41
2024-01-15 19:43:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the only expansion is that we're also moving the container images and toolbox over, and that's already in the change document
2024-01-15 19:43:31 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I'd certainly prefer that as well, but strictly speaking we would have enough votes if I switch.
2024-01-15 19:44:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the main advantage of that is that we no longer have any images that are spun on a regular cadence through ImageFactory after this change is implemented in f40
2024-01-15 19:44:09 <@jistone:fedora.im> a majority vote shouldn't be used to override impacted folks though
2024-01-15 19:44:13 <@jistone:fedora.im> "we agree you should do work"
2024-01-15 19:44:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> which means that once f39 is EOL and f41 has no images built through ImageFactory, it can be fully retired
2024-01-15 19:44:43 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> well I made it.  trouble getting the client to connect
2024-01-15 19:44:54 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Josh Stone: Well, we're giving the go-ahead for them to TRY to implement this. If they hit an issue they can't get past (including releng declining to land the change) that's not unheard of.
2024-01-15 19:44:58 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> sorry I'm late
2024-01-15 19:45:01 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> may imagefactory finally rest in peace, honestly.
2024-01-15 19:45:05 <@humaton:fedora.im> SO I am back from PTO just for few days and didnt have time to get through all the changes that landed
2024-01-15 19:45:14 <@jistone:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher: fair
2024-01-15 19:45:19 <@humaton:fedora.im> But this seems doable from the releng side of things
2024-01-15 19:45:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, I think the biggest piece is just implementing a new command handler in pungi? which I'm not familiar with how to extend pungi, but I'm happy to help do that if someone wants to work with me on it
2024-01-15 19:45:58 <@humaton:fedora.im> But since I am not full time releng anymore I dont really want to just drop work on new-ish people...
2024-01-15 19:46:28 <@humaton:fedora.im> Yeah it will ned a new phase as they call it
2024-01-15 19:46:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I already know that the koji parts work since we use them in CentOS
2024-01-15 19:46:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> *CentOS Hyperscale
2024-01-15 19:46:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and CentOS Alt Images
2024-01-15 19:47:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Approving this is telling the Change Proposer(s) they can work on it. It's not dictating to RelEng that they must take it if it's not ready.
2024-01-15 19:47:24 <@jistone:fedora.im> I'd be more worried if there were a hard -1 vote. With soft positive, I guess it can still proceed.
2024-01-15 19:47:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yes.
2024-01-15 19:47:44 <@humaton:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher: thanks for clarification in that case strong +1 
2024-01-15 19:47:46 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> So, with that in mind, I'm revising my vote to +1
2024-01-15 19:47:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> It basically unblocks us to get started :)
2024-01-15 19:47:54 <@humaton:fedora.im> should I vote under the ticket?
2024-01-15 19:48:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nah
2024-01-15 19:48:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the vote here will be recorded and then the ticket will be updated
2024-01-15 19:49:14 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Ok, so it seems we are now at (+6,0,0)  Does anyone else want to vote?
2024-01-15 19:49:25 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> I'm +1, for whatever my vote counts for :) 
2024-01-15 19:49:26 <@tstellar:fedora.im> I'm voting 0.
2024-01-15 19:49:42 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Think of it like a Freeze Exception request during Beta Freeze: we agree that a fix is worth including if it's done in time. It won't block if it's not.
2024-01-15 19:49:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> support and praise but not much else :P
2024-01-15 19:49:54 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> hey, that's ok. :)
2024-01-15 19:50:06 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> you can count me as a +1
2024-01-15 19:50:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Right, and that's why we have contingency plans in every change document
2024-01-15 19:50:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we have to know how to roll back too
2024-01-15 19:50:27 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Yep, I'm mostly just trying to clarify for our newest members.
2024-01-15 19:50:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Oh sorry.
2024-01-15 19:51:14 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Don't be. More clarification is always better.
2024-01-15 19:51:49 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !agreed APPROVED (+7, 1, -0)
2024-01-15 19:52:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> lol, I forgot that meetbot uses reactions to indicate progress :D
2024-01-15 19:52:29 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> RIP mustard
2024-01-15 19:52:34 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !topic Next week's chair
2024-01-15 19:52:43 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Who would like to chair next week?
2024-01-15 19:53:16 <@jistone:fedora.im> I can do it
2024-01-15 19:53:29 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Thanks, Josh
2024-01-15 19:53:32 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !action Josh Stone will chair next meeting
2024-01-15 19:53:38 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Thank you!

2024-01-15 19:53:56 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Why is !action acknowledged by a red flag? That seems... mean
2024-01-15 19:54:13 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2024-01-15 19:54:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> at least you're alive :)
2024-01-15 19:55:08 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yeah, and warm...
2024-01-15 19:56:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's potentially bad :/
2024-01-15 19:56:59 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> :( everyone stay safe out there.
2024-01-15 19:57:23 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> buffalo just got 4ft this weekend :|
2024-01-15 19:57:39 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> mine's all melted here in MA
2024-01-15 19:57:53 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Any topics to discuss (besides the weather)?  
2024-01-15 19:58:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> CentOS Connect and FOSDEM is coming up!
2024-01-15 19:58:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Anyone going?
2024-01-15 19:58:18 <@humaton:fedora.im> snow is mostly gone here but we have lovely 3.2F at night
2024-01-15 19:58:24 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I will be at FOSDEM, but not CentOS Connect
2024-01-15 19:58:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'll be at both.
2024-01-15 19:59:12 <@humaton:fedora.im> Oh one thing I wanted to point to
2024-01-15 19:59:22 <@humaton:fedora.im> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/what-to-do-about-src-fedoraproject-org-a-long-term-planning-discussion/99541
2024-01-15 19:59:23 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> i'll be at the both
2024-01-15 19:59:29 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I would have gone to CentOS Connect but I can't depart early enough to make it

2024-01-15 20:01:11 <@jistone:fedora.im> jednorozec: is that just for awareness, or something we need to discuss now?
2024-01-15 20:01:28 <@humaton:fedora.im> awareness and any insights are welcomed
2024-01-15 20:01:36 <@humaton:fedora.im> Josh Stone: ^^
2024-01-15 20:02:19 <@humaton:fedora.im> We need to do something about src.fp.o sooner the better either keeping and investing in it or replacing it
2024-01-15 20:02:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I would prefer to invest in it, especially since my attempts at building a community around pagure is actually working again
2024-01-15 20:03:14 <@zodbot:fedora.im> neil has already given cookies to ngompa during the F39 timeframe
2024-01-15 20:03:45 <@humaton:fedora.im> I also prefer if the solution is in our hands, Conan Kudo  maybe we can syncup @fosdem and talk about it 
2024-01-15 20:03:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> let's do it!
2024-01-15 20:03:58 <@davide:cavalca.name> fwiw, as a bystander that saw that and other posts about this isn't not clear why "we need to do something". Like, this seems to work fine and do what it's supposed to do. If there's outstanding issues or pain points that propel this discussion, I would recommend spelling them out clearly.
2024-01-15 20:04:42 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Davide Cavalca: First and foremost is maintenance. Someone has to keep it running, debug issues, kick it when it crashes...
2024-01-15 20:05:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, I only function as upstream for pagure, not fp.o/pagure.io service maintainer :)
2024-01-15 20:05:18 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> An evaluation needs to include the question "is the amount our people spend maintaining it less than the cost of paying someone else to do it for us?"
2024-01-15 20:05:28 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> surely the AI will do that for us?
2024-01-15 20:05:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ugh
2024-01-15 20:05:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I knew that was coming
2024-01-15 20:05:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and still
2024-01-15 20:05:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> :P
2024-01-15 20:05:41 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> you're welcome ;) 
2024-01-15 20:06:02 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> I apologize that my usually scheduled meeting is cancelled and you're stuck with me lol
2024-01-15 20:06:11 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I have been pondering a list of things we would hope for from a more active pagure.io... but haven't had a chance to write it up yet
2024-01-15 20:06:18 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> As well as "is it providing all the features we want from its competitors?" And if not, "can we afford to add them?"
2024-01-15 20:06:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm planning on making a ticket about the pagure 6.0 checklist of things to do before its release
2024-01-15 20:06:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and then from there, we can start properly roadmapping things
2024-01-15 20:07:16 <@humaton:fedora.im> that is all nice but pagure.io is not src.fp.o
2024-01-15 20:07:17 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> The balance of that, of course Stephen Gallagher is ... do we want to deal with another party who is unable to (or unwilling to) care about changes we may need. iirc we had issues with ELN imports due to some git hook we couldn't touch
2024-01-15 20:07:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (it's mostly deleting lots of broken and dead features and dropping py2 stuff)
2024-01-15 20:07:26 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> For me, the "killer feature" of Gitlab and Github is the extremely low-friction support for CI pipelines.
2024-01-15 20:08:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it has always been possible to do low-friction CI in pagure: the two methods are either via a pagure-ci extension or by listening on the message bus
2024-01-15 20:08:06 <@humaton:fedora.im> Any other gitforge like gitea as well most of them now implement github actions API
2024-01-15 20:08:42 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon: As one of the Gitlab maintainers for RHEL, I am very cognizant of that risk, yes. And that one in particular was annoying, but ultimately I think they were correct in refusing.
2024-01-15 20:08:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> for whatever reason, the zuul ci integraton uses neither of those two methods
2024-01-15 20:09:10 <@humaton:fedora.im> Well my idea about low friction is not that you have to have msg consumers and runtimes and such. In gitlab as user/maintainer its few clicks/command away
2024-01-15 20:09:26 <@tstellar:fedora.im> It's been 15 minutes for Open Floor.  Do we want to keep discussing Pagure or end the meeting?
2024-01-15 20:09:30 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> Totally understand, it wasn't the best example.. just the one I could think of to provide a counterexample
2024-01-15 20:09:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I assume Stephen meant: check in the CI files and it just works
2024-01-15 20:09:54 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: I'd much rather that ONE approach was designed and implemented and that, like GitLab/Hub all we needed to do was drop a pipeline file into the repo
2024-01-15 20:09:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> no clicking, no nothing
2024-01-15 20:10:27 <@jistone:fedora.im> I have a meeting process question -- the "one day before the Monday meeting" notice is awkward for work schedules, so is Friday okay for that?
2024-01-15 20:10:41 <@davide:cavalca.name> Thanks Stephen Gallagher. Totally get the maintenance point. I'm personally skeptical that maintaining the glue required to make a third party forge work well as a dist-git plus dealing with the forge itself will be less work overall, but quantifying how much time is currently spent keeping src.fp.o alive what that entails now would definitely be useful for this discussion.
2024-01-15 20:10:47 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> yeah, Friday I think would work better for the notices
2024-01-15 20:10:48 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Josh Stone: That guidance has always been... aspirational
2024-01-15 20:11:02 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> In practice, the agenda rarely gets out more than a couple hours ahead of the meeting
2024-01-15 20:11:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't know if I've ever done it the day before
2024-01-15 20:11:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't usually have time
2024-01-15 20:11:11 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yes, friday would be good... and when it doesn't happen it makes me sad. ;(
2024-01-15 20:11:35 <@jistone:fedora.im> ok - I'll try for Friday then!
2024-01-15 20:12:34 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Davide Cavalca: The identity glue is probably in a better place these days than it was when Pagure.io/src.fp.o was first created
2024-01-15 20:12:58 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Since all of the forges now support SAML and OpenID Connect 2.0  more or less properly.
2024-01-15 20:13:56 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Some of the access control stuff on a per-repo basis might be harder, though
2024-01-15 20:14:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> pagure's ACL model basically doesn't exist anywhere else
2024-01-15 20:14:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so that would be a... change
2024-01-15 20:15:02 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Agreed, that would definitely be something requiring careful planning and education.
2024-01-15 20:16:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the number of AI-less forges is also dwindling now that GitLab incorporated it into even the self-hosted one
2024-01-15 20:16:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it phones home and incorporates that data into GitLab.com's corpus
2024-01-15 20:17:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> https://about.gitlab.com/solutions/code-suggestions/
2024-01-15 20:18:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> part of the larger GitLab Duo thing: https://about.gitlab.com/gitlab-duo/
2024-01-15 20:19:14 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Yeah, I'm not keen on that either, but I don't know that this is something we can do anything about outside of the courts
2024-01-15 20:19:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> anyway, this is wildly off topic, we should probably wrap it up...
2024-01-15 20:19:34 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Regardless of whether we move, people WILL fork our changes into those repos and they will end up as training data.
2024-01-15 20:19:37 <@davide:cavalca.name> Yeah for sure. Didn't mean to derail the meeting, sorry folks
2024-01-15 20:19:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> no worries
2024-01-15 20:19:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we were already off the rails :)
2024-01-15 20:19:52 <@tstellar:fedora.im> OK, last call for other topics...
2024-01-15 20:20:48 <@humaton:fedora.im> Thanks for all the ideas, I will incorporate some in the comms and make thing more clear.
2024-01-15 20:22:01 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !endmeeting