2024-04-08 19:30:00 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> !startmeeting FESCO (2024-04-08)
2024-04-08 19:30:03 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-04-08 19:30:00 UTC
2024-04-08 19:30:03 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'FESCO (2024-04-08)'
2024-04-08 19:30:05 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> !meetingname fesco
2024-04-08 19:30:15 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> !topic Init Process
2024-04-08 19:30:22 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> .hi
2024-04-08 19:30:23 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Remi Collet: Thanks for coming.
2024-04-08 19:30:24 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !hi
2024-04-08 19:30:26 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek (zbyszek)
2024-04-08 19:30:27 <@jistone:fedora.im> !hi
2024-04-08 19:30:28 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Josh Stone (jistone) - he / him / his
2024-04-08 19:30:42 <@tstellar:fedora.im> !hi
2024-04-08 19:30:43 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Tom Stellard (tstellar)
2024-04-08 19:31:15 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Sorry for missing the last meeting. It was a non-work day and I got too distracted with family stuff.
2024-04-08 19:31:18 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> FYI, I have to leave for an appointmet in a bit under an hour... so if we go past that someone else will have to take over.
2024-04-08 19:31:43 <@humaton:fedora.im> !hi
2024-04-08 19:31:44 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Tomáš Hrčka (humaton) - he / him / his
2024-04-08 19:31:55 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> And thats 5 I think... :)
2024-04-08 19:32:24 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> lets wait a minute or two more for folks to arrive.
2024-04-08 19:33:28 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> With the daylight savings time, this meeting is at 21:30 and that's … tough. 
2024-04-08 19:33:40 <@humaton:fedora.im> yeah
2024-04-08 19:33:50 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> DST is just anoying all around. :(
2024-04-08 19:34:02 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> ok, lets go ahead then
2024-04-08 19:34:05 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> !topic #3183 Change: PHP No 32-bit
2024-04-08 19:34:10 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> !fesco https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3183
2024-04-08 19:34:36 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> There's +3 in the ticket and then a number of questions/answers...
2024-04-08 19:35:44 <@jistone:fedora.im> since I was one asking -- I'll say that I have no particular stake in php at all, but I think that due diligence was missing in finding such buildreqs
2024-04-08 19:36:35 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> are there any known outstanding ones? or you would like the change to be updated to confirm actions on them...
2024-04-08 19:36:40 <@tstellar:fedora.im> I think the change proposal should at least have a list of the affected packages.
2024-04-08 19:37:03 <@jistone:fedora.im> I have no idea if action has been taken on those
2024-04-08 19:37:35 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Remi Collet: you still here?
2024-04-08 19:38:02 <@remi:fedora.im> yes (but don't understand what you are asking for), was thinking to have answered
2024-04-08 19:39:27 <@jistone:fedora.im> Remi Collet: this is billed as a self-contained change, but it may break other package builds. Have you coordinated with any of them?
2024-04-08 19:39:42 <@jistone:fedora.im> I see you did libvpx
2024-04-08 19:39:48 <@remi:fedora.im> sorry, don't see which one
2024-04-08 19:40:03 <@mhayden:fedora.im> !hi 
2024-04-08 19:40:04 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Major Hayden (mhayden) - he / him / his
2024-04-08 19:40:12 <@mhayden:fedora.im> _apologizes for eclipse distractions_
2024-04-08 19:40:29 <@jistone:fedora.im> (other fesco folks, feel free to tell me if I'm making too much fuss about this)
2024-04-08 19:40:51 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> No, I think this is a valid request.
2024-04-08 19:40:54 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> well, yes, it would be good to know all the effects... if possible.
2024-04-08 19:41:21 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> So: looking at https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3183#comment-901440, do we know which packages will FTBFS?
2024-04-08 19:41:37 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Josh Stone: You are not.  I think when removing a package, the change proposal should show a list of affected packages or if there are none, the script or command used to search for dependencies.
2024-04-08 19:42:05 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Remi Collet: would it be possible to do a test build in mock or copr and make an explicit list by srpm name and maintainer?
2024-04-08 19:43:42 <@tstellar:fedora.im> But anyway, this proposal is technically approved already, since there are no -1 votes.
2024-04-08 19:43:58 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Ah yeah, I suppose thats true...
2024-04-08 19:44:28 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> No, I don't think so. We had an ongoing discussion.
2024-04-08 19:45:06 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I don't think we want to say that a ticket is approved (or disapproved), while people are still asking questions.
2024-04-08 19:45:26 <@tstellar:fedora.im> zbyszek: Ok, but that's not what our process says.
2024-04-08 19:45:30 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !hi
2024-04-08 19:45:31 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his
2024-04-08 19:45:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Tom Stellard: have 7 days passed?
2024-04-08 19:45:54 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher: 20 days.
2024-04-08 19:45:58 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (Sorry, just arriving)
2024-04-08 19:46:15 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Oh, my mistake. 
2024-04-08 19:46:37 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yeah, the current process as listed has this approved.
2024-04-08 19:47:07 <@jistone:fedora.im> Remi Collet: I guess I'm mainly looking for commitment from you to find and help resolve such (potential) problems
2024-04-08 19:47:30 <@jistone:fedora.im> I don't object on the whole, though maybe I should have entered a procedural vote
2024-04-08 19:48:24 <@remi:fedora.im> Josh Stone: as I always do....  (I usually run the needed mass rebuild during PHP update alone)
2024-04-08 19:49:25 <@remi:fedora.im> and I also usually fix alone the FTBFS in PHP stack (for my packages, and other), such a the recent GCC 14 ones
2024-04-08 19:49:45 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> So then I guess, lets just mark it approved and move on. If others have issues, please let Remi know? Or did we want to vote here on it since we are discussing it?
2024-04-08 19:49:55 <@jistone:fedora.im> Can we acknowledge that risk and need for action in the Change?
2024-04-08 19:51:19 <@jistone:fedora.im> I don't want to block this... we can move on
2024-04-08 19:51:47 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> !agreed Change was approved in ticket (+3, 0, -0)
2024-04-08 19:52:20 <@remi:fedora.im> Notice: in all case, my plan was to drop 
2024-04-08 19:52:21 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> !topic #3191 Change: Switch to DNF5
2024-04-08 19:52:33 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> !fesco https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3191
2024-04-08 19:52:43 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Remi Collet: thanks for coming...
2024-04-08 19:52:50 <@hugpoodle:matrix.org> hi, im trying to find a driver or a way of getting my AX211 intel wifi working in F39
2024-04-08 19:53:18 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Chris Allen: You want #fedora:fedoraproject.org for end user questions.
2024-04-08 19:53:19 <@hugpoodle:matrix.org> works on ubuntu 22.04 which is kernel 6.5, and arch which is 6.8, but no joy on fedora 39
2024-04-08 19:53:23 <@hugpoodle:matrix.org> ah ok 
2024-04-08 19:53:25 <@rlengland:fedora.im> Chris Allen: My bad Chris
2024-04-08 19:54:07 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> So, on this one... do we want to wait more? I think discussion has mostly died down now...
2024-04-08 19:54:24 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Or shall we vote?
2024-04-08 19:54:53 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I'm +1 at this point FWIW
2024-04-08 19:55:10 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Is there a good summary of what, if any, missing features there are in dnf5 ?  It's a little hard to judge the impact of this.
2024-04-08 19:55:35 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Tom Stellard: the Change page is very detailed…
2024-04-08 19:56:07 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/SwitchToDnf5#Feature_implementation ?
2024-04-08 19:56:20 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> ie, system upgrade right now, then history, then packagekit...
2024-04-08 19:57:25 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> also https://dnf5.readthedocs.io/en/latest/changes.html but it probibly needs some work
2024-04-08 19:57:38 <@tstellar:fedora.im> The change page says: "We aim to cover the majority of use cases available in the existing dnf package. However, there are some features that may not be implemented in time. Nevertheless, we plan to deliver them at a later stage. "  
2024-04-08 19:59:07 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> history is the big one I think...
2024-04-08 19:59:20 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> (well, it's there, but lacks a lot of things dnf4's history has)
2024-04-08 19:59:32 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> `history` is already working. It's per-package history that is not. IIUC.
2024-04-08 19:59:38 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Right.
2024-04-08 20:00:44 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> also no undo, redo, rollback, userinstalled, etc.
2024-04-08 20:01:38 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> anyhow, votes? or any further discussion?
2024-04-08 20:02:14 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Was the issue with the skip_if_unavailable=True default fixed ?
2024-04-08 20:03:07 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yes. A mechanism was added to provide drop-in config files, and then the distro can have a file to configure the mechanism.
2024-04-08 20:03:27 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Ok, and that was the main reason it was pushed out from f40 to f41 ?
2024-04-08 20:04:22 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I thought that was lack of dist upgrade
2024-04-08 20:04:29 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I'll others answer that. I didn't understand the decision.
2024-04-08 20:05:53 <@tstellar:fedora.im> OK, I found the old ticket: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3039
2024-04-08 20:06:36 <@tstellar:fedora.im> How many of those "Missing Pieces" are still missing?
2024-04-08 20:07:22 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> That's for F39, not F40.
2024-04-08 20:08:32 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> They didn't submit for f40 I thought... they didn't want to do it then
2024-04-08 20:09:06 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> A, right. Yes, I thought we postponed to F40 and then again, but we didn't.
2024-04-08 20:09:17 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> "Yes, DNF5 will be not in RHEL10, therefore we decided to postpone it to Fedora 41 to not interfere with RHEL 10 branching."
2024-04-08 20:09:39 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> (followed by a number of people saying that this could be worked around, but I didn't see any answers there)
2024-04-08 20:10:00 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> anyhow, should we punt this for now and ask about those missing items specifically on list/discussion thread?
2024-04-08 20:10:23 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I think many of them are solved, but I don't know for sure on some...
2024-04-08 20:11:58 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> FWIW (despite my kicking this to a meeting), I think I'm inclined to vote +1 today and worry about whether it's sufficient as we close in on the contingency date.
2024-04-08 20:12:40 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Agreed.
2024-04-08 20:13:00 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> hum? when is the f41 change proposal submission deadline... I didn't think it was soon?
2024-04-08 20:13:26 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> config-manager plugin was merged, but there are some follow-up tickets for features.
2024-04-08 20:13:49 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> 2024-06-25 is the system wide proposal submission deadline...
2024-04-08 20:14:22 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> nirik: I'm missing the relevance
2024-04-08 20:15:13 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> My concern is that if we keep holding off the approval, the uncertainty may lead to less work being done on it out of the fear that it's rejected.
2024-04-08 20:15:14 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> system upgrade and offline transactions were implemented too.
2024-04-08 20:15:31 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> --no-autoremove also.
2024-04-08 20:15:39 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> well, I don't see as we have to rush here... another week isn't a big deal, but ok, if people want to vote note...
2024-04-08 20:15:44 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> well, I don't see as we have to rush here... another week isn't a big deal, but ok, if people want to vote now...
2024-04-08 20:15:53 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> So the "Missing pieces" from F39 ticket seems pretty much done.
2024-04-08 20:15:56 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Because as long as it's not accepted, they need to account for both DNF 4 and DNF 5 in their planning
2024-04-08 20:16:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-04-08 20:16:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-04-08 20:16:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> sorry I'm late, other meetings ran over
2024-04-08 20:16:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: The aliens didn't pick you either, huh?
2024-04-08 20:16:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> alas
2024-04-08 20:16:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm not special enough
2024-04-08 20:17:16 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I've got to head out in a few minutes... if someone can take over...
2024-04-08 20:18:35 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Can we do the vote before that then?
2024-04-08 20:18:46 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> If we hurry. ;)
2024-04-08 20:19:07 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> +1 to the change, but I would also be ok waiting another week to make sure we checked all the items from before.
2024-04-08 20:19:26 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> +1
2024-04-08 20:19:40 <@jistone:fedora.im> +1
2024-04-08 20:19:49 <@humaton:fedora.im> sooner we switch sooner it gets stabilised
2024-04-08 20:19:51 <@humaton:fedora.im> +2
2024-04-08 20:19:55 <@humaton:fedora.im> ups
2024-04-08 20:19:56 <@humaton:fedora.im> +1
2024-04-08 20:20:24 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> jednorozec: that's ballot stuffing or whatever it's called!
2024-04-08 20:20:28 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Conan Kudo Tom Stellard?
2024-04-08 20:20:52 <@tstellar:fedora.im> 0
2024-04-08 20:21:33 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I have to go...
2024-04-08 20:21:38 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> nirik: I can take over.
2024-04-08 20:21:42 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> if someone else could tally and get next chair and close
2024-04-08 20:22:02 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: last chance
2024-04-08 20:22:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ehhh, +0
2024-04-08 20:22:48 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !agreed APPROVED (+5, 2, 0)
2024-04-08 20:23:39 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Who are the 5 votes?
2024-04-08 20:24:05 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> nirik, stephen, me, josh, jednorozec
2024-04-08 20:24:32 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Ok, thanks.
2024-04-08 20:25:42 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I know I was pushing a bit on this, but we've already discussed and planned this over and over, and I don't think further planning is going to change much. It seems close enough to being done that it's better just try to finish it.
2024-04-08 20:26:07 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic Next week's chair
2024-04-08 20:26:13 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Volunteers?
2024-04-08 20:27:04 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> C'mon, not everybody at once.
2024-04-08 20:27:26 <@tstellar:fedora.im> I can do it.
2024-04-08 20:27:32 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Thanks!
2024-04-08 20:27:40 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !action Tom Stellard will chair the next meeting.
2024-04-08 20:27:47 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I'll be away next week, most likely.
2024-04-08 20:27:54 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2024-04-08 20:27:58 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Now that everyone is on DST, can we move the meeting back an hour to its original time?
2024-04-08 20:28:33 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I wouldn't mind moving it one hour earlier.
2024-04-08 20:29:05 <@jistone:fedora.im> I'm fine either way
2024-04-08 20:29:34 <@tstellar:fedora.im> We all filled out the survey based on local time, so it seems like it would be most convenient to keep it at the same local time.
2024-04-08 20:29:47 <@tstellar:fedora.im> Now that this is possible again.
2024-04-08 20:30:11 <@humaton:fedora.im> that would be nice!
2024-04-08 20:30:30 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> +1 to moving it an hour earlier
2024-04-08 20:32:22 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, but I think we should discuss this in a ticket so that everybody can ack the change. We only have 6 poeple here.
2024-04-08 20:33:45 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Actually, wait. 
2024-04-08 20:34:18 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Only nirik and dcantrell are not here. I checked the work calendar, and they should both be fine with moving it one hour up.
2024-04-08 20:34:39 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> So… is everybody else fine with moving it to 18:30 UTC?
2024-04-08 20:35:04 <@tstellar:fedora.im> +1
2024-04-08 20:35:24 <@jistone:fedora.im> +1
2024-04-08 20:35:38 <@humaton:fedora.im> +1
2024-04-08 20:35:48 <@mhayden:fedora.im> +1
2024-04-08 20:36:19 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: ?
2024-04-08 20:37:12 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, in the interest of saving daylight, let's try this.
2024-04-08 20:37:23 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !agree APPROVED (+5, 0, 0)
2024-04-08 20:37:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2024-04-08 20:37:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oof
2024-04-08 20:37:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 18:30 UTC means it conflicts with Fedora KDE
2024-04-08 20:37:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so I'd be -1
2024-04-08 20:37:57 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !agree The time of the meeting is moved one hour earlier, to 18:30 UTC (+6, 0, 0)
2024-04-08 20:37:58 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Oh,
2024-04-08 20:38:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> while Fedora KDE is pegged to US/Eastern (13:00 US/Eastern) that's currently 18:00 UTC
2024-04-08 20:38:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's why our meeting is later
2024-04-08 20:38:53 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> What about moving it half an hour up?
2024-04-08 20:39:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> what, Fedora KDE?
2024-04-08 20:39:12 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I mean the FESCo meeting.
2024-04-08 20:39:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh, FESCo, sure
2024-04-08 20:39:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the meeting is from 1-2pm EDT
2024-04-08 20:39:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so moving to 3pm EDT is fine with me
2024-04-08 20:39:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> moving the FESCo meeting that is
2024-04-08 20:40:26 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, anyone against moving it to 19:00 UTC?
2024-04-08 20:40:57 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I'll assume that's OK, since 0.5 h < 1 h.
2024-04-08 20:41:23 <@jistone:fedora.im> also fine
2024-04-08 20:41:28 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !agreed The time of the meeting is moved half hour earlier, to 19:00 UTC (+6, 0, 0)
2024-04-08 20:41:41 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, anything else for open floor?
2024-04-08 20:42:00 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I'll close in a few seconds.
2024-04-08 20:42:15 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !endmeeting