2024-07-23 17:00:03 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !startmeeting FESCO (2024-07-23)
2024-07-23 17:00:06 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-07-23 17:00:03 UTC
2024-07-23 17:00:06 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'FESCO (2024-07-23)'
2024-07-23 17:00:09 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic Init Process
2024-07-23 17:00:09 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !meetingname fesco
2024-07-23 17:00:09 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> 
2024-07-23 17:00:09 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Chairs: @conan_kudo:matrix.org, @ngompa:fedora.im, @nirik:matrix.scrye.com, @humaton:fedora.im, @zbyszek:fedora.im, @sgallagh:fedora.im, @jistone:fedora.im, @dcantrell:fedora.im, @decathorpe:fedora.im, @salimma:fedora.im
2024-07-23 17:00:10 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now fesco
2024-07-23 17:00:16 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-23 17:00:18 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek (zbyszek)
2024-07-23 17:00:19 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> morning
2024-07-23 17:00:23 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> !hi
2024-07-23 17:00:24 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Kevin Fenzi (kevin) - he / him / his
2024-07-23 17:00:31 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-23 17:00:33 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his
2024-07-23 17:00:44 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-23 17:00:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2024-07-23 17:01:09 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-23 17:01:11 <@zodbot:fedora.im> David Cantrell (dcantrell) - he / him / his
2024-07-23 17:01:27 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> We have quorum, but let's wait a few more minutes.
2024-07-23 17:02:57 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic #3230 Mass license change
2024-07-23 17:02:57 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !fesco 3230
2024-07-23 17:03:16 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !info Votes in the ticket: (+5, 0, 0)
2024-07-23 17:03:50 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !fesco 3230
2024-07-23 17:03:51 <@zodbot:fedora.im> **fesco #3230** (https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3230):**Mass license change**
2024-07-23 17:03:51 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Last Updated:** 6 hours ago
2024-07-23 17:03:51 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Opened:** 3 weeks ago by msuchy
2024-07-23 17:03:51 <@zodbot:fedora.im> 
2024-07-23 17:03:51 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Assignee:** Not Assigned
2024-07-23 17:04:07 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Hmm, so the multicommand feature doesn't seem to be working.
2024-07-23 17:04:46 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Does anyone want to change their vote or add their vote if they didn't vote?
2024-07-23 17:04:55 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> topic doesn't do anything if thats what you mean?
2024-07-23 17:05:06 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> FTR, the latest proposal is this:
2024-07-23 17:05:06 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> PROPOSAL v2: All old license strings shall be converted to SPDX format. For licenses where a 1:1 mapping exists from the legacy Fedora tag to SPDX, the normal SPDX tag shall be used. For licenses where the old license tag maps to more than one possible license in the SPDX database, a tag in the form of LicenseRef-<something indicating Fedora legacy>-* where * is the old Fedora identifier shall be used. In both cases, a comment shall be included in the spec file to indicate that the conversion was done automatically and review is warranted. For the second case, the comment should also indicate that the maintainers should update to normal SPDX tags after review.
2024-07-23 17:05:37 <@salimma:fedora.im> the first ! fesco did not work as it's in the same message as topic
2024-07-23 17:05:44 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I added a +1 for myself in the ticket
2024-07-23 17:05:52 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> There was a reply: "Topic is now …". So it does do _something_.
2024-07-23 17:06:01 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> actually it does change the minutes. anyhow.... will stop sidetracking
2024-07-23 17:06:03 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yeah, but that was supposed to be fixed.
2024-07-23 17:06:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-07-23 17:06:19 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-07-23 17:06:20 <@salimma:fedora.im> I agree. I just want to clarify it's the second line and so on that got ignored :)
2024-07-23 17:06:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> my +1 is already there, right? I'm keeping it
2024-07-23 17:06:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> same
2024-07-23 17:06:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> also FYI, I have a hard stop at 2pm
2024-07-23 17:06:57 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yes, but there was a big announcement that the latest version of new zodbot will also execute commands from the second line.
2024-07-23 17:07:49 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I see Neal's vote, but not Michel's for the latest proposal.
2024-07-23 17:07:58 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh, in that case I'm +1
2024-07-23 17:08:20 <@salimma:fedora.im> my bad I voted on v1 and you put up v2 the day after
2024-07-23 17:08:21 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, so we're at +7. I think that's everybody.
2024-07-23 17:08:53 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !agreed All old license strings shall be converted to SPDX format. For licenses where a 1:1 mapping exists from the legacy Fedora tag to SPDX, the normal SPDX tag shall be used. For licenses where the old license tag maps to more than one possible license in the SPDX database, a tag in the form of LicenseRef-<something indicating Fedora legacy>-* where * is the old Fedora identifier shall be used. In both cases, a comment shall be included in the spec file to indicate that the conversion was done automatically and review is warranted. For the second case, the comment should also indicate that the maintainers should update to normal SPDX tags after review. (+7, 0, 0)
2024-07-23 17:09:11 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic #3235 Change: Fedora KDE Plasma Mobile
2024-07-23 17:09:14 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !fesco 3235
2024-07-23 17:09:15 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Last Updated:** 6 hours ago
2024-07-23 17:09:15 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Assignee:** tdawson
2024-07-23 17:09:15 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Opened:** 2 weeks ago by amoloney
2024-07-23 17:09:15 <@zodbot:fedora.im> 
2024-07-23 17:09:15 <@zodbot:fedora.im> **fesco #3235** (https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3235):**Change: Fedora KDE Plasma Mobile**
2024-07-23 17:09:29 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I am here if people want to ask me questions on this.
2024-07-23 17:09:39 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-23 17:09:41 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Troy Dawson (tdawson)
2024-07-23 17:09:44 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Hi Troy.
2024-07-23 17:11:01 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I noted my concerns in the ticket... 1) I don't think the audience is super big given that 2) hardware that this will work on is very limitied. I think a lot of people will see this and think they can use it on their phone or whatever and be disappointed when they can't.
2024-07-23 17:11:19 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> at this stage of things I think a remix is a better fit
2024-07-23 17:11:26 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> whoops, sorry, time got away from me. I'm here
2024-07-23 17:11:27 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> but if others disagree thats fine. ;)
2024-07-23 17:11:28 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> !hi
2024-07-23 17:11:29 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his
2024-07-23 17:11:36 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I think this is a valid concern…
2024-07-23 17:12:05 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the target hardware is supported in the upstream/fedora kernel, yes?
2024-07-23 17:12:15 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> what is the target hardware?
2024-07-23 17:12:16 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I agree with the worry about people thinking it is for their phone.  And that does concern me.  I want to document what hardware it is for, and specifically guide people away from phones.
2024-07-23 17:12:56 <@tdawson:fedora.im> But I think the hardware I am shooting for it very broad.  Basically any touchscreen machine that Fedora runs on.
2024-07-23 17:13:10 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> The proposal literally says "Mobile", so I think it's steering people _toward_ phones ;)
2024-07-23 17:13:37 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Troy Dawson: Would it be better to describe it as "KDE Tablet"?
2024-07-23 17:13:43 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I have listed the Lenovo Yoga and the Microsoft Surface Pro, but it doesn't have to be limited to that.
2024-07-23 17:13:48 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> that sounds more clear
2024-07-23 17:13:57 <@salimma:fedora.im> KDE Touch Screen
2024-07-23 17:14:11 <@salimma:fedora.im> since it does not preclude using a keyboard, right?
2024-07-23 17:14:31 <@tdawson:fedora.im> KDE Tablet  sounds more descriptive.  But the project name is Plasma Mobile ... 
2024-07-23 17:14:47 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I don't see any mention of specific hardware in the change. ;) but also... why wouldn't someone just run fedora on those and install the mobile set if they wanted to do that?
2024-07-23 17:15:14 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Fedora usually names their projects after their upstream projects ... that's why I was keeping Plasma Mobile.
2024-07-23 17:15:21 <@salimma:fedora.im> I suppose if you don't have a keyboard handy during the installation, having a tablet-optimized install mechanism is useful
2024-07-23 17:15:26 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I suppose I should ask why this is a separate Spin vs. something like SteamDeck's approach
2024-07-23 17:15:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2024-07-23 17:15:33 <@tdawson:fedora.im> @nirik They can, and do.
2024-07-23 17:15:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> What does the Deck have to do with this?
2024-07-23 17:16:08 <@tdawson:fedora.im> When you start with Fedora and put plasma mobile on later, your expience varies.
2024-07-23 17:16:24 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: Just the way that they handle the environment; it's basically just booting into either the main KDE desktop or a special mode with Steam Big Picture
2024-07-23 17:16:41 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> It feels like KDE Plasma could be analagous to Big Picture
2024-07-23 17:16:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> you mean, why don't we just put both on the existing KDE image?
2024-07-23 17:16:54 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Sorry, Plasma Mobile
2024-07-23 17:16:57 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Yes
2024-07-23 17:17:17 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> That sounds like bugs in the packaging. The user should really be able to switch to a different environment by installing new packages and restarting the session.
2024-07-23 17:17:37 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Troy Dawson: Varies how? That seems like a key point.
2024-07-23 17:17:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> That's not even fully true with GNOME. The move to Wayland has more or less broken that.
2024-07-23 17:18:09 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> zbyszek: There are valid reasons for that not being seamless, such as differing default systemd units.
2024-07-23 17:18:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> things like xdg-desktop-portal infrastructure, configuration knobs, different services, etc. have significant impacts
2024-07-23 17:18:38 <@tdawson:fedora.im> OK, Let me put it a different way.  Why have spins at all?  You can always start with Server, install a minimum, and then build up from there.
2024-07-23 17:18:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that is one of the differences between Plasma Mobile and Plasma Desktop: there are different defaults
2024-07-23 17:18:55 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: So they pre-configure some default settings differently?
2024-07-23 17:19:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2024-07-23 17:19:04 <@tdawson:fedora.im> We have spins so people can easilly install them.
2024-07-23 17:19:04 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> OK, that's an important point
2024-07-23 17:19:22 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> That seems to be a very big hammer to adjust some systemd services…
2024-07-23 17:19:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> even things like SDDM need to be handled somewhat differently
2024-07-23 17:19:27 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> To be clear, I'm not arguing. I'm making sure we're understanding the need :)
2024-07-23 17:20:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we as a project decided a long time ago that it was important that we can express these differences via deliverables
2024-07-23 17:20:23 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Yes
2024-07-23 17:20:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> if we approve this the reasoning should probably be documented - for the benefit of future FESCo decisions :)
2024-07-23 17:20:36 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Essentially, any time there is a static service enablement that needs to be adjusted, this is a failure of integration. The service set should be mostly dynamic,  with stuff being pulled in via dependencies and generators.
2024-07-23 17:20:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> (this was supposed to have been documented as part of Fedora.next)
2024-07-23 17:20:48 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> There's been several discussions about making that more settable after install time, but we don't have anything like that now
2024-07-23 17:21:03 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Just to be clear, I will do what Fesco wants.  If they feel that I should start with a remix, I'll start there.  But if I do, then you'll need to give me a "when you reach this goal, then you can ask for a spin."
2024-07-23 17:21:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't think it's solvable with our infrastructure and current capabilities to move back toward the "salad bar" model even if I would personally like it a bit more
2024-07-23 17:21:52 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> zbyszek: Let's table this for now; that's a whole discussion on its own
2024-07-23 17:22:03 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Ack.
2024-07-23 17:22:11 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> For now, the precedent is that we allow some systems to have different defaults.
2024-07-23 17:22:21 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> s/systems/Spins/
2024-07-23 17:22:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the biggest reason is that we're going to have a fork of kde-settings package for plasma mobile
2024-07-23 17:22:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and they are going to be mutually exclusive
2024-07-23 17:23:08 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> That seems odd; why are they forking the package vs. the config of the package?
2024-07-23 17:23:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, fork is a bit harsh, but a subpackage with different settings
2024-07-23 17:23:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but it's a fork of the settings we ship for desktop plasma
2024-07-23 17:23:32 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Ah, okay
2024-07-23 17:23:50 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Again, we have precedent for that in the way we do fedora-release-* packages
2024-07-23 17:23:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup
2024-07-23 17:23:59 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> And even packaging guidelines on how to handle it
2024-07-23 17:24:04 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> For me, I'd say remix -> spin wihere there's specific popular hardware to target (but that could be too vuage)
2024-07-23 17:24:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> though fedora-release is special in its own right :P
2024-07-23 17:24:53 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yeah, fedora-release exists to stress installability tests.
2024-07-23 17:24:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this is also going to be our first bootc-based atomic fedora image too
2024-07-23 17:25:15 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> So, I don't see a strong argument for this to be a Remix. Nothing about it is unacceptable for Fedora as our current rules stand.
2024-07-23 17:25:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> depending on how well that works out
2024-07-23 17:25:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> or whatever we call the container based atomic fedora thing
2024-07-23 17:25:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I might be confusing things with that
2024-07-23 17:26:01 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> oci images?
2024-07-23 17:26:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah that
2024-07-23 17:26:16 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Container-native?
2024-07-23 17:26:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's a little hard to keep track of all the different ways atomic fedora can be done now
2024-07-23 17:26:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I just know the intent is to not use classic ostree
2024-07-23 17:26:57 <@salimma:fedora.im> switching between variants should be easier in immutable / atomic deliverables, right? if we want to experiment maybe do it there first
2024-07-23 17:27:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Michel Lind 🎩: it's still full collections and those still need to be built out
2024-07-23 17:27:15 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Does anyone want to provide another argument for Remix over a Spin? If not, I think I'm still happy with approving this as a Spin.
2024-07-23 17:27:48 <@salimma:fedora.im> right. we still need full standalone collections even with that (I also note Bluefin is currently not released for aarch64 yet)
2024-07-23 17:28:04 <@salimma:fedora.im> I'm happy with this as a spin. the reasoning makes sense
2024-07-23 17:28:11 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> if this is approved, can I plead with people to work with the websites team to note what hardware this is for on the website? because people will otherwise think the wrong thing.
2024-07-23 17:28:33 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> and the 10 people who want to use it can know they can. ;)
2024-07-23 17:28:33 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Definatly, yes.
2024-07-23 17:28:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we really need that for the website in general
2024-07-23 17:28:55 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> and in marketing.
2024-07-23 17:29:02 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> and on the change page
2024-07-23 17:29:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> all fedora arm variants need that info and it's not there
2024-07-23 17:29:04 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I do think that some more consideration should be made for coming up with a better name, but I don't think that needs to block the decision
2024-07-23 17:29:18 <@tdawson:fedora.im> That is really my biggest fear.  Getting a swarm of people wanting this on their Galaxy Flip 
2024-07-23 17:29:19 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, so to wrap this up, we should vote.
2024-07-23 17:29:47 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Neal, Stephen, Michel, Josh, Tomas were +1 in the ticket.
2024-07-23 17:29:54 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Kevin was -1.
2024-07-23 17:30:00 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Add or change votes?
2024-07-23 17:30:13 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> call me a +1
2024-07-23 17:30:44 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +1
2024-07-23 17:30:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> if they want to work on upstreaming the drivers, by all means :P
2024-07-23 17:31:06 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> no change for me... as a side note: what arches are going to be produced? x86_64 and aarch64? or just aarch64?
2024-07-23 17:31:11 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I'll lean +1. I think Kevin has valid concerns, but OTOH, I think we shouldn't block this particular spin. Maybe rethink the whole idea of how we do variants to make it more scalable.
2024-07-23 17:31:44 <@tdawson:fedora.im> If anything, flip it around.  x86_64 and maybe arch64.
2024-07-23 17:31:57 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !agreed APPROVED (+8, 0, -1)
2024-07-23 17:32:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes, x86 and arm
2024-07-23 17:32:14 <@tdawson:fedora.im> But with the new copilot+ aarch64 machines, we'll need aarch64.
2024-07-23 17:32:46 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !action Change owners to document which hardware this is for
2024-07-23 17:32:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> especially since apparently we're getting them working this cycle :D
2024-07-23 17:32:55 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Thank you all.
2024-07-23 17:33:05 <@salimma:fedora.im> we should come up with a proposal to clean up old spins - maybe for the F42 timeframe
2024-07-23 17:33:05 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Troy Dawson++ thank you for comin
2024-07-23 17:33:07 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Troy Dawson++ thank you for coming
2024-07-23 17:33:08 <@zodbot:fedora.im> zbyszek gave a cookie to tdawson. They now have 73 cookies, 9 of which were obtained in the Fedora 40 release cycle
2024-07-23 17:33:09 <@zodbot:fedora.im> zbyszek has already given cookies to tdawson during the F40 timeframe
2024-07-23 17:33:18 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> There is already a 'keep alive' process.
2024-07-23 17:33:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there is already the keepalive process
2024-07-23 17:33:31 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> jinx!
2024-07-23 17:33:34 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> thanks Troy Dawson. :) Hope no hard feelings on my -1.
2024-07-23 17:33:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/program_management/pgm_guide/sop/spins-keepalive/
2024-07-23 17:33:52 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic #3248 Git Forge Evaluation FESCo Rep(s)
2024-07-23 17:33:57 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !fesco 3248
2024-07-23 17:33:58 <@zodbot:fedora.im> 
2024-07-23 17:33:58 <@zodbot:fedora.im> **fesco #3248** (https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3248):**Git Forge Evaluation FESCo Rep(s)**
2024-07-23 17:33:58 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Assignee:** Not Assigned
2024-07-23 17:33:58 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Last Updated:** 6 hours ago
2024-07-23 17:33:58 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Opened:** a day ago by amoloney
2024-07-23 17:34:14 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !info Stephen Gallagher volunteered to be the rep
2024-07-23 17:34:53 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> this is all just eval right? not making any decisions, just gathering the info so decisions can be made...
2024-07-23 17:35:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I hope that's what it is.
2024-07-23 17:35:05 <@humaton:fedora.im> yes
2024-07-23 17:35:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't know what's going on.
2024-07-23 17:35:07 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> That's how I understood it.
2024-07-23 17:35:12 <@salimma:fedora.im> if we have too many spins maybe the requirements are too lax as it stands. but yeah time to think about it later
2024-07-23 17:35:22 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> proposal: approve Stephen Gallagher as our rep.
2024-07-23 17:35:27 <@humaton:fedora.im> this is only evaluation
2024-07-23 17:35:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> +1
2024-07-23 17:35:33 <@salimma:fedora.im> they just want a stakeholder rep for each team, so sure
2024-07-23 17:35:34 <@salimma:fedora.im> +1
2024-07-23 17:35:34 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> +1
2024-07-23 17:35:37 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +1
2024-07-23 17:35:38 <@salimma:fedora.im> good luck Stephen
2024-07-23 17:35:38 <@humaton:fedora.im> +1
2024-07-23 17:36:13 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> sure. (although I am biased I think against gitlab, but I trust Stephen Gallagher)
2024-07-23 17:36:31 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> though it might be worth mentioning that I'm somewhat troubled by the fact that GitLab is in the process of being sold / bought, not sure how that will affect their Open Core strategy
2024-07-23 17:36:49 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !agreed Stephen Gallagher is approved as FESCo rep for the Git Forge Evaluation project (+7, 0, 0)
2024-07-23 17:37:03 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> (I counted Kevin's "sure" as +1 too.)
2024-07-23 17:37:12 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yep.
2024-07-23 17:37:24 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I assume you counted my volunteering as a +1 as well?
2024-07-23 17:37:33 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Actually, I didn't.
2024-07-23 17:37:56 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> off by one error
2024-07-23 17:38:35 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> We had a discussion about proposals not made in the meeting, and we conclusion was that there's no clear rule that would allow that. I assumed that you were just not voting because you're the candidate. Though it's obviously OK for you to vote.
2024-07-23 17:38:56 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !agreed Stephen Gallagher is approved as FESCo rep for the Git Forge Evaluation project (+8, 0, 0)
2024-07-23 17:39:15 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Heh, I hadn't voted because the doorbell rang :-)
2024-07-23 17:39:27 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic Next week's chair
2024-07-23 17:40:20 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Quick note: the meeting after the next one is likely to be low-attendance due to Flock travel; should we just move its topics to the Live FESCo Session at Flock?
2024-07-23 17:40:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that would be... interesting
2024-07-23 17:40:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we've never done that before
2024-07-23 17:41:03 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> would we have quorum
2024-07-23 17:41:07 <@farchord:matrix.org> Someone needs to bring in a gavel.
2024-07-23 17:41:13 <@farchord:matrix.org> Or this doesn't count.
2024-07-23 17:41:30 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> dcantrell: Not necessarily in person quorum, but we could likely get people in via videoconference too
2024-07-23 17:41:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm sure we could get one :P
2024-07-23 17:41:41 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> that would have the disadvantage of no minutes...
2024-07-23 17:41:49 <@farchord:matrix.org> I want this recorded if you do. XD
2024-07-23 17:41:52 <@salimma:fedora.im> I always wanted to own a gavel, so if nobody has one already I don't mind procuring one
2024-07-23 17:42:08 <@salimma:fedora.im> should we bring a Hogwarts style robe too
2024-07-23 17:42:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 🤣
2024-07-23 17:42:14 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> note that I will not be at flock, so you'd be down at least one
2024-07-23 17:42:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh man, that would be fun, robes and everything
2024-07-23 17:42:30 <@salimma:fedora.im> and wig
2024-07-23 17:42:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I do draw the line at the powdered wigs though
2024-07-23 17:42:35 <@salimma:fedora.im> ah
2024-07-23 17:42:40 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> but this is the engineering committee.  we should wear high vis safety vests and just use a real hammer
2024-07-23 17:42:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> they're uncomfortable :P
2024-07-23 17:42:43 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah we're not doing this in a Commonwealth country, skip the wig
2024-07-23 17:42:50 <@farchord:matrix.org> Oooo and that old timey rolled up white hairdo from the old american politicians...
2024-07-23 17:42:53 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I believe the session is scheduled for a couple hours earlier in the day than this meeting usually occurs, so it may be possible for Europeans to attend virtually
2024-07-23 17:43:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> bang the hammer on a steel-toed boot to declare decisions
2024-07-23 17:43:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's the powered wig
2024-07-23 17:43:41 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, let's not derail the topic.
2024-07-23 17:43:44 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I think we should probably move this to Open Floor discussion and answer the immediate question for now
2024-07-23 17:43:54 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Who wants to chair the meeting _next week_?
2024-07-23 17:44:31 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I might not be able to make it next week. It's up in the air (literally; I don't know if I'll be back from collecting my wife at the airport)
2024-07-23 17:45:44 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Anyone else?
2024-07-23 17:45:49 <@humaton:fedora.im> I can
2024-07-23 17:45:58 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Thanks.
2024-07-23 17:46:08 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !action jednorozec will chair the next meeting.
2024-07-23 17:46:16 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2024-07-23 17:47:18 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> OK, minus the cosplay, how would we feel about attempting to do a live/videoconference FESCo session
2024-07-23 17:47:34 <@humaton:fedora.im> I think it might be fun
2024-07-23 17:47:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (I'll volunteer to convert the discussion to minutes/summary afterwards, if that helps)
2024-07-23 17:47:44 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yeah, we can try.
2024-07-23 17:47:50 <@farchord:matrix.org> Would it be streamed?
2024-07-23 17:47:52 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> so I will be driving on Aug 6th.  I'm fine doing a live session at the event
2024-07-23 17:47:57 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> How about we do that if and only if there's no questions/topics in person? because I feel like we are missing out if we don't let people meet our fesco?
2024-07-23 17:48:01 <@salimma:fedora.im> if we can't do it, as a fallback we can have someone projecting a Matrix chat, right?
2024-07-23 17:48:19 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I think the main room sessions will be streamed, but we should check with Aoife Moloney and Justin W. Flory (he/him) 
2024-07-23 17:48:26 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> we meet all the time, but we don't have flock attendees all the time able to talk to us
2024-07-23 17:48:32 <@salimma:fedora.im> true, we should prioritize taking questions from the audience
2024-07-23 17:48:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Which room(s) on which day(s)?
2024-07-23 17:48:42 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yeah, I think somebody should be typing crucial notes into the chat so that it all ends up recorded in meetbot.
2024-07-23 17:48:47 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> if no questions, falling back to meeting seems fine. ;)
2024-07-23 17:48:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's the first day
2024-07-23 17:48:53 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (he/him): Live FESCo session right after the first keynote
2024-07-23 17:48:59 <@salimma:fedora.im> but I think showing them how we make decisions would be useful too. so maybe discuss at least one issue from our meeting list?
2024-07-23 17:49:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So, good news and bad news
2024-07-23 17:49:11 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Good news, FESCo session will be recorded and live-streamed.
2024-07-23 17:49:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> we have summoned Justin
2024-07-23 17:49:30 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Bad news, will not have any cameras, so people won't be able to _see_ you. Panels won't be great remote experiences 😞
2024-07-23 17:49:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It is just going to be slide capture
2024-07-23 17:49:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It is just going to be slide/screen capture
2024-07-23 17:49:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It is just going to be slide/screen capture and audio
2024-07-23 17:49:52 <@farchord:matrix.org> Can't you just take a cell phone and put that on a stand?
2024-07-23 17:50:00 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> So… you're saying that it's going to be just like a normal FESCo meeting?
2024-07-23 17:50:03 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Ouch, we can't just use Google Meet or something?
2024-07-23 17:50:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Officially no, unofficially sure :)
2024-07-23 17:50:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> zbyszek: Yes 😅
2024-07-23 17:50:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> wait is that how _all_ of them are going to work?
2024-07-23 17:50:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher: I guess someone could set up a laptop on the stage. You know, like how we did it back in 2015 🥹
2024-07-23 17:50:47 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: Unfortunately yes
2024-07-23 17:50:51 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh man
2024-07-23 17:50:52 <@salimma:fedora.im> I had to give a presentation that way once. I still have nightmares
2024-07-23 17:50:55 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> oh we need a camera.  we can even have Law & Order inspired intro narration:  "In the open source world, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups.  The engineering committee which evaluates and approves the changes requested and the council which does something else entirely.  These are their stories."
2024-07-23 17:50:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> A/V prices between Cork and USA are _astronomical_
2024-07-23 17:51:02 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, sorry to side-rail your meeting
2024-07-23 17:51:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But I hope this info is helpful
2024-07-23 17:51:18 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> dcantrell: that would be quite funny
2024-07-23 17:51:25 <@farchord:matrix.org> *can see the rails screeching slightly*
2024-07-23 17:51:36 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (he/him): You're not derailing it; this is literally the active topic :)
2024-07-23 17:51:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this means we'll have far less fodder for YouTube shorts from Flock :/
2024-07-23 17:51:40 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (he/him): astronomical is better than astrological  :)
2024-07-23 17:52:27 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (he/him): Assuming it's not too late to deal with it, how much would we have to beg, borrow or steal to get real A/V?
2024-07-23 17:52:29 <@davide:cavalca.name> fyi I'm bringing a meetup camera along for another event, you're welcome to borrow it if it helps
2024-07-23 17:52:35 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Actually, maybe don't answer in a recorded meeting...
2024-07-23 17:52:36 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: Yeah. 😕 Not great. But we will adapt as best we can.
2024-07-23 17:52:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher: You don't want to know the number.
2024-07-23 17:52:43 <@farchord:matrix.org> All joking aside, idk about going full cosplay is a good idea as it'll completely strip the seriousness out of the fesco meeting. But I still think at least a gavel would be cool to  see
2024-07-23 17:52:45 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !info The session in two weeks will most likely be moved to the live "Meet your FESCo" panel during Flock.
2024-07-23 17:52:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But I can say it is close to what we pay for our annual Matrix hosting :P
2024-07-23 17:53:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> holy crap
2024-07-23 17:53:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's an insane amount of money
2024-07-23 17:53:22 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It is. And I am contracted to only be able to use one vendor. Yay monopolization.
2024-07-23 17:53:49 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But looking back, I think we just got an amazing deal in Cork and I had no idea how good we had it there :)
2024-07-23 17:53:51 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Points to the Irish.
2024-07-23 17:54:00 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !link https://cfp.fedoraproject.org/flock-2024/talk/9VEHJX/
2024-07-23 17:54:01 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> would be nice if we could use RH A/V department.  or IBM
2024-07-23 17:54:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> We did pretty well in Cape Cod too
2024-07-23 17:54:21 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> except for the hotel
2024-07-23 17:54:31 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Financially, I meant.
2024-07-23 17:54:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It would be nice, but there are these weird clauses in the contract when it comes to stuff about A/V. As I am learning.
2024-07-23 17:54:46 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> yeah, so you get what you pay for
2024-07-23 17:55:19 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (he/him): I assume those clauses also prohibit us jerry-rigging our own A/V?
2024-07-23 17:55:20 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Anyhoo… any other topics?
2024-07-23 17:55:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Cape Cod Flock had some good moments :) But I will always remember the trashfire State of Fedora keynote that year :D
2024-07-23 17:55:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher: Well… officially yes. Unofficially… 🙂
2024-07-23 17:55:47 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Cape Cod Flock had some good moments :) But I will always remember the trashfire State of Fedora keynote that year :D [Sidebar!]
2024-07-23 17:55:59 <@salimma:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: since you have a hard stop do you have anything?
2024-07-23 17:56:07 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> the hotel bar on Cape Cod was shut down by a vice operation while we were there.  bartender was fired
2024-07-23 17:56:23 <@salimma:fedora.im> ouch
2024-07-23 17:56:29 <@farchord:matrix.org> Ouch....
2024-07-23 17:56:36 <@salimma:fedora.im> I did my drinking at a local jazz bar (which was great) so I did not notice
2024-07-23 17:56:43 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Those young contributors. We try so hard to attract them, and then a higher power intervenes.
2024-07-23 17:56:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nope
2024-07-23 17:57:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I gotta go to dentist :)
2024-07-23 17:57:33 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (he/him): thank you for the infos
2024-07-23 17:57:46 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> If nothing else, I'll close in a minute…
2024-07-23 17:57:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Yep. This is the latest news of the day, so the timing was convenient
2024-07-23 17:58:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Yep. This is the latest Flock news of the day, so the timing was convenient
2024-07-23 17:58:35 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Thank you all for coming.
2024-07-23 17:58:37 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !endmeeting