<@fale:fale.io>
17:01:26
.hi
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:01:27
!startmeeting FESCO (2025-01-14)
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
17:01:28
Meeting started at 2025-01-14 17:01:27 UTC
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
17:01:29
The Meeting name is 'FESCO (2025-01-14)'
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:01:33
!meetingname fesco
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
17:01:34
The Meeting Name is now fesco
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:01:39
Chairs: @conan_kudo:matrix.org, @ngompa:fedora.im, @nirik:matrix.scrye.com, @humaton:fedora.im, @zbyszek:fedora.im, @sgallagh:fedora.im, @fale:fale.io, @dcantrell:fedora.im, @decathorpe:fedora.im, @salimma:fedora.im
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:01:43
!topic Init Process
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:01:46
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:01:47
Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:01:50
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:01:51
Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:01:57
morning
<@humaton:fedora.im>
17:02:32
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:02:33
Tomáš Hrčka (humaton) - he / him / his
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:04:08
We've got five, which is quorum, but I'm going to give people another minute.
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:05:39
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:05:40
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek (zbyszek)
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:06:29
Alright, let's get started.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:06:50
!topic #3320 Change: Switch to git-core
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:06:54
!fesco 3320
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:06:55
● **Last Updated:** 21 hours ago
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:06:55
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:06:55
● **Assignee:** mikelo2
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:06:55
● **Opened:** a week ago by amoloney
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:06:55
**fesco #3320** (https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3320):**Change: Switch to git-core**
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:08:05
I have to say that I don't quite understand what are the fears wrt. this change. It seems like a fairly safe and straighfoward buildroot-requirement reduction.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:09:07
It feels to me like the sort of thing that should be socialized on Fedora Devel and a change that packagers should be advised to make.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:09:26
I don't see the value in the potentially-disruptive mass-package-update
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:09:27
one slight objection I have (but haven't mentioned yet) is that there should probibly be a period when this is advertised and maintainers can adjust their own packages (avoiding PR's)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:09:37
yeah
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:10:01
Presumably, the maintainers of the packages should know best whether they need git-core or git.
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:10:38
If we ask maintainers to do this, we'll get a few dozen packages updated. I don't think that's useful at all.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:10:47
nirik: Sure, but how do they then say "No, please don't change it" if they determine that they really do need the full git dep?
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:11:03
Close the PR with a comment?
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:11:07
zbyszek: I don't think there's been a strong argument made for why doing this en masse is useful either.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:11:08
I don't think it will be sufficent, but I think allowing for that before the mass pr filing would be good.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:11:35
Add comment to the spec? # git is needed here because...
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:12:15
No, not to the spec. The Change owner will open pull requests. If the owners close the PR, that should be the end of the story for that particular package.
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:12:41
I mean, people can add comments to the spec file, more comments is usually good, but that's just a nicety.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:12:53
sure.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:12:55
What's the follow-up policy on the merge requestss?
<@fale:fale.io>
17:13:06
I think that if the Change owner opens the PRs, we could have a cutoff time (a couple of weeks) after which there could be an autorization to force-merge the open ones
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:13:06
Will the submitter merge them after some time if there's no activity?
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:13:19
Will they just sit there indefinitely if the maintainer doesn't monitor MRs?
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:13:35
Fale: agreed
<@humaton:fedora.im>
17:13:47
I checked the devel list thread and it was in some orphan packages announce sub thread
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:13:54
(I'm asking for clarification, not trying to be confrontational)
<@humaton:fedora.im>
17:14:01
So I think it might be agood idea to promote it bit more?
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:14:15
I don't see the answers to those questions in the Change proposal
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:14:22
side note: we should think about this lifecycle in the new forge too. I mean there's PR's still open for a bunch of EOL releases. ;(
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:15:11
Then we should merge those PRs before we swich to the new forge.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:15:38
the new forge is more than a year away
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:15:41
possibly two
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:15:46
I want to see a merge request-only [*] process with the new forge. Direct pushes should be allowed only for mass-rebuilds. But that's a separate discussion entirely.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:15:49
it's not a concern I have
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:16:05
I want to see a merge request-only \[\*\] process with the new forge.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:16:05
[*] Direct pushes should be allowed only for mass-rebuilds. But that's a separate discussion entirely.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:16:17
I hope we never do that
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:16:20
can you tell me the winning lotto tickets for next week too? anyhow, sorry, this is a sidetrack. Lets get back to the change
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:16:23
Stephen Gallagher: please no.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:16:27
I hope we never do that (blocking direct pushes)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:17:11
Should we vote on it? or ask change owners to make adjustments (which?) and revisit next week?
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:17:20
Proposal: Change is approved with the clarification that a proven packager will merge all the pull requests which remain unanswered after 4 weeks.
<@fale:fale.io>
17:17:29
+1
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:17:33
+1
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:17:42
nirik: I at least am -1 until my questions about how the merge requests will be handled are included in the Change page
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:18:06
we're basically specifying that right now in the proposal
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:18:07
zbyszek: OK, I can get on board with that.
<@humaton:fedora.im>
17:18:15
+1
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:18:23
Conan Kudo: I was typing before that proposal hit. Race-condition.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:18:23
I guess +1...
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:18:28
ah
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:18:50
+1 to zbyszek
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:19:44
!agreed Change is approved with the clarification that a proven packager will merge all the pull requests which remain unanswered after 4 weeks. (+6, 0, -0)
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:20:02
That was the only discussion topic on the agenda.
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:20:14
!info I'm volunteering be the provenpackager in question.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:20:33
!info Change proposal needs updating to include information about the pull request deadline
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:20:58
!action zbyszek to handle merging MRs after four weeks
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:21:09
(I'm not sure the !info will include your name in the summary)
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:21:32
Yeah, I should have used 3rd person.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:21:36
!topic Next Week's Chair
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:22:13
Should be an easy one next week, since I processed all the remaining Changes this week. Who wants it?
<@fale:fale.io>
17:22:46
I'll be in an airport, so I would prefer not to chair it
<@humaton:fedora.im>
17:22:56
I would take it but meeting landed on my calendar next week
<@humaton:fedora.im>
17:23:15
so I will miss this one
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:23:45
I've not done it in a while... can take next week.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:24:56
!action nirik to chair 2025-01-21 meeting
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:25:01
!topic Open Floor
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:25:20
Anything to discuss in the Open Floor today?
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:25:37
Yeah, the report for Council.
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:26:01
IIRC, Stephen Gallagher wanted to look at it.
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:26:09
Can we send it out?
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:29:26
I mean, mattdm is on the fesco list, so anything shared there or pointed to from there he should have already, no?
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:29:37
Sorry, I completely spaced this week and didn't review it. Skimming it now, but it looks fine at a glance
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:29:47
Yeah, but we should make it official.
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
17:30:16
hey 👋 sorry, lost track of time 😬
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:31:24
I'm not even sure where to send anything.
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:31:24
OK, so… is anyone against sending out what we have now?
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
17:32:02
by "sending out" you mean "ask council fesco liaisoin (however you spell that) to do handle this"?
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:32:21
Something like that. I guess that'd be the easiest.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:32:35
sure, there's that too. (although he isn't here today)
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:33:15
Yeah, I think that's probably David's responsibility to deliver the report to the Council
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:33:29
Or we could attach a pdf to the ticket that Matthew opened. I think we just just decide the general action, the details can be figured out later.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:35:37
Just finished reading through the complete HackMD. That is... exceedingly detailed and comprehensive. Thank you for that.
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:35:42
proposal: we ask dcantrell as the FESCO liaison to convey the report about provenpackager work to Council
<@fale:fale.io>
17:35:59
+1
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
17:36:00
+1
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:36:19
zbyszek: +1 (With the note that David is the *messenger*, not the sole owner)
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:36:33
Yes, of course.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:36:41
sure, +1.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:37:18
Well, "shoot the messenger" is kind of what happened to him the first time around. I'd prefer to avoid that.
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:37:52
Conan Kudo: you still around?
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:37:58
yes
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:38:26
+1
<@humaton:fedora.im>
17:38:36
+1
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:40:46
Sorry, got distracted. Tallying votes now
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:40:52
+7
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:41:13
!agreed we ask dcantrell as the FESCO liaison to convey the report about provenpackager work to Council (+7, 0, -0)
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:41:37
OK, anything else today?
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
17:42:22
(I can give access to the markdown source code if that's better than the rendered doc)
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:42:49
I pushed the bin-sbin merge changes yesterday, and independently, Panu pushed the change to make sysusers dependencies hard. There was some fallout, but things are being fixed fairly quickly after issues are reported.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:43:33
Fabio Valentini: Coordinate with dcantrell please
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
17:43:48
sure
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:44:04
nirik: How are things looking for the mass-rebuild tomorrow? Anything we should be concerned about?
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
17:44:13
(I doubt that the mass rebuild can start on time anyway, since there's still three (?) gcc builds running and go 1.24 hasn't been built either)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:44:32
yeah, things still failling into line, we will see...
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:45:45
I moved all the ppc64le builders to faster storage, but it hasnt seemed to made things that much faster. Still need to investigate further.
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
17:46:26
nobody is complaining about s390x anymore, so you must have done *something* right :)
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:46:49
I'm not sure if that's true or people have just given up hope for s390x :)
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:47:02
yeah, I hope thats a lot better... hard to say, as people don't usually say 'hey, everything is working' :)
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
17:47:22
as far as I can tell, it's really a lot better
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:47:29
Kidding aside, I agree: I haven't seen a huge backlog pile-up on s390x for a while
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:47:44
Well done, releng!
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:48:33
IIRC, Kevin restricted CI to a subset of builders now
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:48:38
that's also helping
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:49:13
yep. there's a pile of ci stuff waiting... they only get 2 builders currently.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:49:48
I've certainly noticed that my builds are less stalled
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:49:49
ah
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:50:13
last cycle, llvm package CI runs swamped the whole build farm
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:50:47
nobody ever expected the Fedora build environment to be used continuously with a huge backlog of requests like that
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:51:41
I've asked Brendan Conoboy to seriously look into expanding the build farm. We have been operating at a shortage for several years now, and the increased use of CI has exacerbated the problem significantly.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:52:14
We could just go back to not testing anything. I'm sure that would turn out fine! /sarcasm
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:52:25
lol
<@blc:fedora.im>
17:52:40
Give me a sec, I"ll read scrollback..
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:52:41
I know that Fedora CI team was not super-happy with me when I implemented CI for the kiwi descriptions either
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:52:53
there's not enough capacity to run tests for all the images defined there
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:53:14
and there's the OpenQA issues too :(
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:53:21
Before we get too far down this rabbit hole: is there something actionable for FESCo to do here?
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:53:27
not really
<@blc:fedora.im>
17:53:28
nirik: if you haven't already done so I think you should feel free to talk about the infra changes coming in the next few months
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:53:41
Because if not, we should probably take it out of the meeting.
<@nirik:matrix.scrye.com>
17:53:58
sure, I have a plan. :) Look for more soon.
<@blc:fedora.im>
17:54:26
Things will definitely get better this year.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
17:54:38
I still need to write a spicy email about Konflux to devel@ :P
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:55:38
I hope you mean "controversial" rather than "bodice-ripping" :)
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:56:29
OK, does anyone have other business to bring before FESCo, or shall I close out the meeting?
<@decathorpe:fedora.im>
17:57:15
chants *close-it, close-it, close-it*
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:58:25
Works for me. Thanks for participating, folks!
<@zbyszek:fedora.im>
17:58:52
Stephen Gallagher: thanks for chairing!
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:58:54
!endmeeting